1. #6861
    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    They can easily add isles or whatever for future content, they have done so before and will do it again if they can halfass it into the lore.
    Sure they can but it then will be a mess like Broken Isles or Zandalar / Kul Tiras. I mean if there's a logical reason why we didn't venture to those islands before I am fine with it (Pandaria). But what they did with Broken Isles and the two BfA Island continents is very questionable from a lore aspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathanyel View Post
    I think this requires an acceptable suspension of disbelief, the alternative would be reworking the known world over and over, or coming up with ever new worlds each expansion.
    Or coming up with logical reasons why we didn't go there before. Like Pandaria. Or even Northrend. I am up for intricate lore but not for some fabricated nonsense without justification (like why we didn't visit KT/Zandalar before).

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    Quote Originally Posted by crusadernero View Post
    Almost every xpac has felt boring towards the end, thats almost a given. Problem with WoD and now BfA, it got boring quite quickly. Legion probably got so good because of how bad WoD went down. Blizzard had to deliver something good after WoD.

    And lest be honest, if Blizzard do deliver on the next xpac, we are all going to play it no matter how bad previous xpacs was :P
    Is this the case though? I think TBC got better the longer it was running with 2.4 being maybe the best version of TBC and absolutely not dragging. For WotLK it was quite similar although I am not referring to Ruby Sanctum (although WotLK was not as good as TBC in that regard).

    Your last paragraph... no, not really. I thought the same about BfA and I played less than 4 weeks overall of this abomination of an expansion. I never ever played less WoW than with/during BfA. Even WoD kept me entertained for a longer amount of time. So if the next expansion isn't a masterpiece from a game design and "innovation" standpoint I think I won't bother (something I never thought would happen with WoW but BfA proved me wrong).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    bfa and wod literally have nothing in comman other then people saying they don't like it, both of there failings are unique.
    They have a lot in common.

    1. Integral expansion features that are broken or disliked by the playerbase


    Garrison vs. Island Expeditions / Warfronts / Azerite gear

    2. Half-assed approach of delivering an expansion just to have one


    Alternate universe bs vs. a fabricated faction war that's a carbon copy of MoP's faction war storyline

    3. Cosmetics as a key feature instead of getting new mechanics / gameplay additions

    New character models vs. allied races

    4. Relying on previous expansions' strenghts and not building up on them / delivering something fresh

    Legion is a good example for giving us something entirely new instead of just delivering a rehashed, even weaker version of stuff we had before

    5. Incredibly slow start into the expansion

    6.1 and 8.1 might be some of the worst patches in WoWs history. WoD didn't achieve to catch up at all, in BfA 8.2 might be some kind of silver lining.

    6. Lame and boring class design / development

    Draenor perks vs. no class design at all / despised Azerite gear - WoD at least offered a new talent row, BfA offers nothing and 8.2 essences won't fix anything in that regard (at least the basic class design in WoD was very good whereas in BfA it sucked from the start)

    Do you want more similarities? BfA is WoD 2.0 in almost every aspect (of failure).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    I still think 9.0 is death themed.
    Death and dragons? Yeah throw WotLK and Cataclysm into a mixer et voila we have it...
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  2. #6862
    Scarab Lord Fahrad Wagner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chickat View Post
    He joined the WoW team and was told they weren't going to produce content after 6.2 and he was like wtf.
    They also have something planned for Blizzcon most likely that will attract new players? @Fahrad Wagner World revamp?
    I wish hubby, I wish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    I say the kaldorei recreate their tree and that's somehow important for the next xpac
    (Lol just dreaming)
    This might actually happen. But if it does, the Forsaken will be given Lordaeron (probably some storyline involving Calia).

  3. #6863
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    like why we didn't visit KT/Zandalar before
    Kul Tiras isolated itself from the other Human nations, only allowing limited trade etc.

    Zandalar was proud before the events of the Warcraft games, not allowing in any outsiders, then concerned by the effects of the Cataclysm, but that first gave rise to Zul, an opportunistic disaster fraud, and just for good measure also in league with the Old Gods. Hence, our hostile encounter with the Zandalari in the 4.1 dungeons and Pandaria.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    I say the kaldorei recreate their tree and that's somehow important for the next xpac
    (Lol just dreaming)
    Quote Originally Posted by Fahrad Wagner View Post
    This might actually happen. But if it does, the Forsaken will be given Lordaeron (probably some storyline involving Calia).
    Wild thought, what if it's switched? Forsaken settle in Darkshore, while NElves plant a new tree in Silverpine/Gilneas, again under protest from Malfurion, but providing a home to NElves, Worgen and the possible Lightforged Undead.
    Especially if the latter are involved, there's also an attempt to cleanse the Blight in Tirisfal.

  4. #6864
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    They have a lot in common.

    1. Integral expansion features that are broken or disliked by the playerbase


    Garrison vs. Island Expeditions / Warfronts / Azerite gear

    2. Half-assed approach of delivering an expansion just to have one


    Alternate universe bs vs. a fabricated faction war that's a carbon copy of MoP's faction war storyline

    3. Cosmetics as a key feature instead of getting new mechanics / gameplay additions

    New character models vs. allied races

    4. Relying on previous expansions' strenghts and not building up on them / delivering something fresh

    Legion is a good example for giving us something entirely new instead of just delivering a rehashed, even weaker version of stuff we had before

    5. Incredibly slow start into the expansion

    6.1 and 8.1 might be some of the worst patches in WoWs history. WoD didn't achieve to catch up at all, in BfA 8.2 might be some kind of silver lining.

    6. Lame and boring class design / development

    Draenor perks vs. no class design at all / despised Azerite gear - WoD at least offered a new talent row, BfA offers nothing and 8.2 essences won't fix anything in that regard (at least the basic class design in WoD was very good whereas in BfA it sucked from the start)

    Do you want more similarities? BfA is WoD 2.0 in almost every aspect (of failure).

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    Literally hit the nail on the head with these points mate.

    For the majority these are the issues with WoW and hence why they've quit.

  5. #6865
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    I say the kaldorei recreate their tree and that's somehow important for the next xpac
    (Lol just dreaming)
    My wish is they strike a desperate bargain with the Botani that escaped towards the Barrens after the Maghar scenario.
    Not saying that the Alliance should het Botani as An Allied Race (tho it would be cool) but that in their desperation, the Night elves go for a desperate solution. Could tie in with a world revamp if they ever do it.
    Yohohoho

  6. #6866
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
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    Literally hit the nail on the head with these points mate.

    For the majority these are the issues with WoW and hence why they've quit.
    Alot of that stems naturally from the age of the systems in wow, MMOS rely on char progression, the carrot in a stick approach, and the biggest problem with blizzards design is they don't seem to think long term enough. Or they don't know how to design for longer than a couple expansions of a progression system.

    The og 21 pt talent trees were a copy over from traditional rpgs but after 2 wxpacs it became clear it needed a rethink, problem is the new version was too limited and didn't fulfill what the 21 pt trees had provided, blizz also count keep just adding abilitys

    So they go with a cycle of totaly redesigning classes and these artifact systems as band aids.

    There focused in cosmetics and next patch mounts because there quick wins, people like shinys, but they do need a solution to the core problems introduced back in cata, but that would take an other cata level whole hog redesign.

  7. #6867
    Kaldorei Druids are already capable of growing trees fast, Botani as minions of the "wild life" of Draenor are dangerous allies.

  8. #6868
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Hunter View Post
    Alot of that stems naturally from the age of the systems in wow, MMOS rely on char progression, the carrot in a stick approach, and the biggest problem with blizzards design is they don't seem to think long term enough. Or they don't know how to design for longer than a couple expansions of a progression system.
    The funny part is they succeeded with Legion on so many levels when it comes to all of the problems you mentioned... to yet fail in BfA because they learned nothing from Legion and just watered everything down instead of improving it / building upon it.
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  9. #6869
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The funny part is they succeeded with Legion on so many levels when it comes to all of the problems you mentioned... to yet fail in BfA because they learned nothing from Legion and just watered everything down instead of improving it / building upon it.
    Because it was a one expansion band aided to those core issues, the replacement band aided of azerite crap hasn't bee as effective.

  10. #6870
    Quote Originally Posted by Pheraz View Post
    I say the kaldorei recreate their tree and that's somehow important for the next xpac
    (Lol just dreaming)
    And it will stay as such. The tree cannot be recreated anymore, with the aspects powers lost.

  11. #6871
    So, is there more to the War Campaign than rescuing Baine?

  12. #6872
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Or

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post

    They have a lot in common.

    1. Integral expansion features that are broken or disliked by the playerbase


    Garrison vs. Island Expeditions / Warfronts / Azerite gear

    2. Half-assed approach of delivering an expansion just to have one


    Alternate universe bs vs. a fabricated faction war that's a carbon copy of MoP's faction war storyline

    3. Cosmetics as a key feature instead of getting new mechanics / gameplay additions

    New character models vs. allied races

    4. Relying on previous expansions' strenghts and not building up on them / delivering something fresh

    Legion is a good example for giving us something entirely new instead of just delivering a rehashed, even weaker version of stuff we had before

    5. Incredibly slow start into the expansion

    6.1 and 8.1 might be some of the worst patches in WoWs history. WoD didn't achieve to catch up at all, in BfA 8.2 might be some kind of silver lining.

    6. Lame and boring class design / development

    Draenor perks vs. no class design at all / despised Azerite gear - WoD at least offered a new talent row, BfA offers nothing and 8.2 essences won't fix anything in that regard (at least the basic class design in WoD was very good whereas in BfA it sucked from the start)

    Do you want more similarities? BfA is WoD 2.0 in almost every aspect (of failure).
    none of theses things are alike.

    1.Garrison’s have nothing in Common with islands/warfronts. Garrisons fault were that they made it so you had no
    Reason to go out in the world islands/warfronts don’t do this. And Azerite isn’t the same on any level, you not liking them doesn’t make them equal.

    2.The faction war/nzoth make sense in Warcraft, Warcraft has almost always been about the faction war it’s not comparable to a sudden alternate universe.

    3.bfa has given us a ton of new mechanics with warmode Azerite warfronts it hasn’t been an either or and there are no similarity’s between the character model updates as we have gotten a metric ton of new art outside of allied races.

    4.You didn’t even make a point for 4 you just said legion was good.

    5. You haven’t actually played any thing before then wod have you? 4.1 had nothing but two dungeons, 5.1 had nothing but a questing/daily hub and the brawlers guild. 8.1 had more then both of thoses patch’s and to compare it to 6.1 really shows that your going off of your own bias in the face of any facts.

    6.wod added levelling perks then tier sets bfa adds just Azerite, they aren’t the same. You not liking both does not equal a similarity.

    You have completely let your bias strip you of all objectivity and your making false equivalents that have nothing to support them in even the widest sense other then you don’t like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
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    Literally hit the nail on the head with these points mate.

    For the majority these are the issues with WoW and hence why they've quit.
    Some
    How I’m not surprised that elect agrees with this nonsense.
    Last edited by Daemos daemonium; 2019-05-07 at 01:40 PM.

  13. #6873
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    *snip*

    You have completely let your bias strip you of all objectivity and your making false equivalents that have nothing to support them in even the widest sense other then you don’t like it..
    The only thing I get from your response is that you completely missed my point(s). Maybe my "vs." is a problematic choice of words and I should have worded it better but my points are made clear in the numerical sections, the sentences below are just examples for the points I made above.

    What bias? That I despise BfA? Don't think that's bias and that's nothing I ever tried to hide. The thing is, BfA is considered by a huge chunk of the playerbase as WoD 2.0 and not just by me. You know why? Because it simply is WoD 2.0 from so many standpoints... I already mentioned.
    Last edited by Nyel; 2019-05-07 at 01:46 PM.
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  14. #6874
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The only thing I get from your response is that you completely missed my point. Maybe my "vs." is a problematic choice of words but my point is made clear in the numerical sections, the sentences below are just examples for the point made above.
    Your points were absolutely clear and concise dude.

    There is no bias either. You are displeased with the game and you made excellent points as to why you and many others are.

    Never understood why people see criticism and think it's immediately because people don't like the game.

  15. #6875
    Cant wait for the triple facepalm, when Scare comes back.

  16. #6876
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    The only thing I get from your response is that you completely missed my point(s). Maybe my "vs." is a problematic choice of words and I should have worded it better but my points are made clear in the numerical sections, the sentences below are just examples for the points I made above.

    What bias? That I despise BfA? Don't think that's bias and that's nothing I ever tried to hide. The thing is, BfA is considered by a huge chunk of the playerbase as WoD 2.0 and not just by me. You know why? Because it simply is WoD 2.0.
    Taking the meat out of your post leaves it with nonsense that can only be applied as similarity’s in the most meaningless sense. It’s like saying both wod and bfa are expans so clearly they are the same.

    You not hiding a bias doesn’t change it from being a bias. Bfa is nothing like wod people like you have to draw false equivalents because it’s easier then actually looking at it to find the faults. Bfa doesn’t have a single fault that wod did as words faults were due to the lack of world content and the cutting of entire patch’s bfa doesn’t have the same problems.

  17. #6877
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    3.bfa has given us a ton of new mechanics with warmode Azerite warfronts it hasn’t been an either or and there are no similarity’s between the character model updates as we have gotten a metric ton of new art outside of allied races.
    What? We are talking about the scale of features, remember? Warmode is a single switch. That's supposed to be big? I mean, it's useful, thanks for doing it, finally, but it's a single switch, it could have been delivered in a minor patch. Are you arguing that azerite / islands / warfronts are big? They are not. The biggest thing there was the AI and while it is possible that they put tons of hours there, it's also possible that they did not do much beyond just creating a couple behavior patterns just slightly above what NPCs do, with backjumps and "sneaky Pete is here!" -- it's really hard to tell, because that's AI, visible progress is damn uneven and does not correlate with the amount of effort spent.

    In both WoD and BFA there is just not a lot of work done on original features, original features are few and they are shallow. In fact, WoD would actually win here. Garrisons were damn big in terms of new features - ie, they had bodyguards as a small part, and that was an introduction of a feature, unlike in 8.2 which just reuses what was already coded with minor variations. And apart from garrisons, WoD had Ashran, quests that complete using progress bars (yeah, I know, I also am not terribly fond of the mechanic, but that was a new feature, it was sizeable and it had to be designed and coded, that's effort), per-zone events (also a new mechanic), etc. If we are counting azerite, we have to count expansion-wide ring + Draenor perks + new glyphs and effing new stats (multistrike) with wide support in enchants / gems / gear templates for WoD. WoD had more than BFA going here. It just kind of petered out after 6.0 (although 6.2 was not bad).

  18. #6878
    Titan Daemos daemonium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Your points were absolutely clear and concise dude.

    There is no bias either. You are displeased with the game and you made excellent points as to why you and many others are.

    Never understood why people see criticism and think it's immediately because people don't like the game.

    This isn’t criticism it’s making false equivalences that are so nonsensical that only some one like you who has given up any semblance of fact based observation would look at them and think they line up.

    Bfa has problems but Those problems are not the same as wods but a gust or a storm wind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    What? We are talking about the scale of features, remember? Warmode is a single switch. That's supposed to be big? I mean, it's useful, thanks for doing it, finally, but it's a single switch, it could have been delivered in a minor patch. Are you arguing that azerite / islands / warfronts are big? They are not. The biggest thing there was the AI and while it is possible that they put tons of hours there, it's also possible that they did not do much beyond just creating a couple behavior patterns just slightly above what NPCs do, with backjumps and "sneaky Pete is here!" -- it's really hard to tell, because that's AI, visible progress is damn uneven and does not correlate with the amount of effort spent.

    In both WoD and BFA there is just not a lot of work done on original features, original features are few and they are shallow. In fact, WoD would actually win here. Garrisons were damn big in terms of new features - ie, they had bodyguards as a small part, and that was an introduction of a feature, unlike in 8.2 which just reuses what was already coded with minor variations. And apart from garrisons, WoD had Ashran, quests that complete using progress bars (yeah, I know, I also am not terribly fond of the mechanic, but that was a new feature, it was sizeable and it had to be designed and coded, that's effort), per-zone events (also a new mechanic), etc. If we are counting azerite, we have to count expansion-wide ring + Draenor perks + new glyphs and effing new stats (multistrike) with wide support in enchants / gems / gear templates for WoD. WoD had more than BFA going here. It just kind of petered out after 6.0 (although 6.2 was not bad).
    It’s not about scale it’s about them being the similar. Warmode also adds in air drops, assassins, bounty’s, it’s not just a on off switch for PvP. But even then if you want to account in gems and glyphs and what not it just shows that they are even further from each other then Nyel thinks they are:
    Last edited by Daemos daemonium; 2019-05-07 at 02:07 PM.

  19. #6879
    ^^ Fair enough with warmode having airdrops / bounties. Yes, they should be counted. I think the point was that both WoD and BFA added few new things and that those new things were not deep, that's why they cannot / could not carry the expansion. Maybe I misunderstood.

  20. #6880
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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    ^^ Fair enough with warmode having airdrops / bounties. Yes, they should be counted. I think the point was that both WoD and BFA added few new things and that those new things were not deep, that's why they cannot / could not carry the expansion. Maybe I misunderstood.
    Even then no big scale feature has carried an expan other then mythic+, mop added pet battles which most ignored, cata added a world revamp again ignored, wrath added the 10/25 raid split but that’s not really a big feature.

    All of this is a side point though, nyel’s point was that wod and bfa were cosmetic focused but that’s just not true wod Proabbly had less then any expan and added in a ton of stuff like new stats garrisons ect, and bfa has way more cosmetics then every other expan and adds stuff like Azerite and warfronts. The updated models and allied races aren’t similar as the updates models seem to have been the focus of the art team in wod to the detriment of other new art where allied races haven’t effected the tons of art in other places.

    It’s just another false equivalent that falls apart if you look at it at all like all of nyels other points.

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