1. #8861
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, that would just make M+ not work properly. Challenging content is poorly suited for queueing.
    I believe I made a post or two on this in this thread, and this is perhaps not the right thread for involved discussions on that, but I'll just note that I disagree completely and I think solo queue for mythic+ is completely doable and would have been a huge boon to the game. Same triply so for solo queue for rated BGs, etc.

  2. #8862
    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpoke is a Gamer View Post
    It's got a LOOOOT wrong. Likeable is one thing, Believable is another entirely.
    What do you mean by "wrong"? You can question its legitimacy, but there's nothing in that leak that Blizz couldn't do or stated they'd never do, or anything that completely contradicts previous story/gameplay (except the Bolvar part, but that may be something explained in the meantime, or simply something the artist understood wrong)
    But your duty to Azeroth is not yet complete. More is demanded of you... a price the living cannot pay.

  3. #8863
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I believe I made a post or two on this in this thread, and this is perhaps not the right thread for involved discussions on that, but I'll just note that I disagree completely and I think solo queue for mythic+ is completely doable and would have been a huge boon to the game. Same triply so for solo queue for rated BGs, etc.
    Just for a second, consider what would happen if Mythic raids were solo queueable.
    LFR is already as easy as content like that cna possibly go, and it still managed to produce groups that fail to pull their weight.
    Mythic is 3 stesp above that. Normal raids are already entry level raids designed for LFR players who want ot take their first foray into proper raiding, and with the group finder from WoD it is as easy at it could be.
    HC is difficult enough for casual raiding guilds. And then we have Mythic a few notches in difficulty above even that.

    Challenging content and solo queue simply do not work in an MMO.
    It certainly has its places, for simple dungeons it works perfectly fine, it allows players to experience the content in a low stress enviroment, and LFR was made with the same intent.

    Every game needs something prestigious to accomplish, this can be as simple as making a difficult game like Dark Souls, or gaining rewards from collecting stuff, like what mount collectors get with the mount achievement mounts.

    WoW has several avenues of prestige. It has collections. It has Mythic raids. It has Mythic+ dungeons and the invitational. And it has rated PvP.
    Each of these cannot be designed in a way that makes it more accessible, because that would be contrary to the intent of being prestigious. Each one has a different "in" to get started. Prestigious mounts can be as simple as my first foray into it when i decided to grind Darnassus rep for the mount. It can be LFR, which whet my appetite for raiding, leading to me getting into it. Or it can be random BGs, which quickly tell people if PvP is something they want to commit time to.


    There is already a large part of the game solely dedicated to low-stress, low-time activites one can get into. But you cannot expect every part of the game to work like that, or there would be nothing to build to.

    I don't get the 400 mount achievement because i bought all the basic ground mounts from each Alliance city. And i don't get Jaina's elemental mount because i defeated her in Normal, if i want that i need to put time and effort in.

    Mechagon is mythic only for the same reason. Had it been available for everyone instantly then the prestige of the rewards would be mostly lost. It will be attainable easily eventually. In the same way that getting 200 mounts is really easy compared to WotLK, and farming Garrosh mythic for the shoulders is far more trivial now than even the most smooth LFR run was back in the day.

    If you want prestigious awards you need to put time in, if not you need to wait like everyone else.



    This is definitely a bit off topic though. So hopefully this should be a satisfactory explanation.

  4. #8864
    OK, my opinion of what we'll have in 9, in broad strokes:

    First, a general idea. Things aren't going to change much.

    When I look at 8.2 I see a lot of small things which try to be visible and produce some effect, but which are (a) disjoint, don't follow any pattern, don't follow any big overarching ideas, and (b) small and incremental, low-effort. It's like they had a couple of guys crawling up and down the code trying to make things that would be visible and produce some gameplay, but that wouldn't take too much effort. Because doing 20 small disjoint and not terribly creative, but still visible things in a month is better than trying to do 1 good cohesive idea. Because 20 small uncreative things will still produce some gameplay of some known quality, but the good cohesive idea might turn out not to be so good in the end.

    I believe it is going to be the same for 9 - apart from one-two of the bigger things where they will try to do something new because hey, it's still a new expansion, have to have something new (but even those things wouldn't be terribly daring, much less daring than before).

    So:

    1. We'll have a traditional new continent, traditional instances / raids, etc. A new BG maybe (who cares about that when it is the backbone of PVP that is broken). One or two instances taken from previous expansions and remodeled for the new expansion, perhaps.

    2. We'll have no world revamp. That's too big and pointless. We might have one or two more zones like Darkshore / Arathi remodeled for the new style. Maybe they'll redo starting zones for blood elves / draenei, they don't have flying enabled to this day.

    3. We'll have no level squish. (Oh, god, please no level squish. This is the shakiest item because I can see them committing to this and wasting one more expansion to achieve very little, with the leveling not suddenly becoming enjoyable, but with the endgame being even more barren than it was in BFA.)

    4. We'll still have factions, as in, there will still be Alliance and Horde. But we might have cross-faction groups for instances / raids, and perhaps for PVP as well.

    5. I don't know what's going to be the kind of big thing that they will try to do in the new expansion. There has to be something, but it cannot be awfully large. Maybe they will make persistent AI companions which you'd take to some new special mode of instances - you'd probably have more than one companion to pick, could perhaps gear / talent them up a little, then do the instance, maybe have some competition on clearing speed or whatever. Maybe they will do something else. We'll hear about it at Blizzcon. It will probably appear in the slides larger than it really is, they exaggerate everything.

    6. (Forgot about that initially) They will make specs better, but not so much better that they are some super-success story worth talking about. There will be warts, people will disagree about a lot. After a year of heated opinions and exchanges, when things settle down, we'll perhaps be able to conclude that 9 kind of made specs good enough so that they are no longer the clearly visible huge problem like they were before but that they merely became not the biggest problem.

    So, that's about it. No big splashing changes. Some BS in the lore, the game trodding along.

    The single real big question on each Blizzcon is going to be whether they are still going with sub-based one-expansion in two years plus shop model, or whether they are altering it. They can alter it in multiple ways. First, and obvious, they can go F2P = give up the sub cost. Or repurpose the sub as "premium". Second, they can alter the one-expansion in two years thing, eg, they can start issuing basically patches the size of 8.2 and selling them for like $30 but do that more often - twice a year or so. Come on, they could have made mobs in Nazjatar / Mechagon and in the coming raid levels 121-125, that's basically what new expansions could look like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Just for a second, consider what would happen if Mythic raids were solo queueable.
    LFR is already as easy as content like that cna possibly go, and it still managed to produce groups that fail to pull their weight.
    Add ratings and it is all solved. This is a big topic, if you want me to explain what I mean at more length, say so and I will do it. But solo queues work for far more challenging content than all mythic+ in WoW put together.
    Last edited by rda; 2019-07-06 at 01:01 PM.

  5. #8865
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post

    -snip-

    - - - Updated - - -



    Add ratings and it is all solved. This is a big topic, if you want me to explain what I mean at more length, say so and I will do it. But solo queues work for far more challenging content than all mythic+ in WoW put together.
    I cannot imagine Blizz will go F2P until all the other MMOs on the market are gone.
    It is well known in the industry that an MMOgoing F2P is a tacti admission that the game is dead and that they will keep it alive for as little money as possible in order to squeeze the last pennies out of consumers.



    As for your idea for LFR. that would only further stratify LFR. Mythic as content requires a large time investment. Most mythic raidingf groups i have been with spend hte entire night trying ot get down a single boss if they have to.
    "mythic" LFR would basically be persistent groups that go on for potentially DAYS in hope that the few groups with high enough rating would get a single boss down.
    Which leads to a separate problem. What happens when a boss is already killed on this hypothetical mythic LFR, would you just cross your fingers and hope that the ones that show up have any interested in the new boss. Bosses could take hours to get down, so you have to make LFR wings single bosses to prevent groups falling apart from fatigue after a single boss, leaving the rest to stay unkilled.

    Of coursed, you could have premade groups that agree to stay together to defeat the bosses, which is the only way to guarantee that those around you have a similar time investment, but you would still have to have someone stay in the instance to not make it reset.

    And suddenly we are back to where we started, the players who are willing to get the prestigious mythic LFR awards would simply band together in something we might call guilds, who specialize in doing one of several types of content. While the lowest ranks of LFR would be worse than you could ever imagine unless bosses were stripped down to single abilities.


    Not to mention, how would ranking work? Is it based on winrate? Because then a single evening of Mythic raiding would lower you back to abysmal numbers.


    Prestigious awards are better off staying like they are, because the alternatives is a worse version of what we already have.

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    Just to further iterate a bit on my point.

    I assume you mean that each separate version of raiding would still be different, but just all the solo queueable. But who would want to do mythic raiding with a bunch of people who for all you know could be absolutely awful at the game.

    What happens when a bad player gets lucky and presumably clikmbs up the ranks to a higher rating than he would have normally gotten. Mythic raiding can require twitch coordination with a response time of less than 5 seconds.
    Would the group have to lose rating because some player got carried up ot that point? Or would there be a way to blacklist anyone random from entering hte group, because then you would never get into a Mythic LFR with any chance of winning.

  6. #8866
    I was talking about solo queue for mythic / mythic+ instances. Raids work worse due to their size / expectations from how difficult / gimmicky the individual encounters must be (as you say, there is this perception that "normally" you should be progressing at something like one boss a week or so, else it isn't a true raid or whatever - of course that gets in the way of queues, by definition). That's not an insurmountable problem, but instances are just easier and more natural.

    (In general, raids in WoW are a dead-end in terms of gameplay, it has been clear for years. They exist in WoW not because they are particularly successful, people prefer other forms of content by a mile. They exist in WoW because WoW devs are themselves raiders and because they think WoW equals raids on some level.)
    Last edited by rda; 2019-07-06 at 01:18 PM.

  7. #8867
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I was talking about solo queue for mythic / mythic+ instances. Raids work worse due to their size. That's not an insurmountable problem, but instances are just easier and more natural.

    (In general, raids in WoW are a dead-end in terms of gameplay, it has been clear for years. They exist in WoW not because they are particularly successful, people prefer other forms of content by a mile. They exist in WoW because WoW devs are themselves raiders and because they think WoW means raids on some level.)
    We already have Heroic dungeons. That is basically what you are asking for. Mythic dungeons were made solely for hte purpose of having a higher level of content than what players were used to with the intent that it should be more prestigious and give better loot.

    M+ cannot really be solo queueable because you would end up with the same problems as i outlined above. There would be a hypothetical cap on how far pugs could go and you would end up groups who premake the group before queueing to prevent having ot deal with players with inflated rating.


    Overall though i simply cannot understand what you really want here.
    The basic gist i get is that you want to do prestigious content, but not have to deal with what makes them prestigious in hte first place. Very much like players asking for Jainas mythic mount because they did Normal. Or complaining about the Gladiator mounts because PvP is too hard.
    Prestigious content is prestigious because it is difficult and requires time. If you remove all prestigious content then the game is basically dead, because the only possibly thing carrying you forward is more stuff to get shoved in your face over time.


    The last week i farmed the 8.2 pet battle meta-achievement for the baby naga pet.
    If prestigious rewards were not difficult to access then i would have gotten no sense of achievement from completing that achievement. Sure, i would have removed the annoyance i felt from 2 hours of trying to find the last pet i needed, but the prestige would be gone. I would have just logged in and found the pet in my tab, presumably already conveniently levelled to max.



    You cannot backtrack that some content should stay prestigious and other shouldnt when there is no discernible difference between different things.
    Mythic raiding has just as much reason to be prestigious as getting the Gladiator mount.
    Mythic dungeons have just as much reason to stay as they are as M+ having the feat of strength for doing all the dungeons in time with a +15 key.

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    Quick as well. Pretty bold statement that only a minority enjoys raids. Do you have any facts to back this statement up? Or are you conflating your personal experiences with common knowledge?

  8. #8868
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    We already have Heroic dungeons. That is basically what you are asking for.
    I am asking for mythic+ instances because they are more challenging and provide more gameplay (and more rewards).

    M+ can be solo queueable. Add ratings and it is. Ratings solve the problem of "I am getting noobs who don't try hard". At the levels of difficulty where you have to have a cohesive setup, add picks and allow players to pick among their alts - or give them a generic alt of the spec you want with their gear level. High level mythic+ players have multiple alts for their roles - this would work the same way.

    What's the problem I am trying to solve? The one of manual grouping. For each player who is willing to do manual grouping there's 50-100 players who would do the exact same content if only they could solo queue. More partners, more mindshare, vastly bigger ecosystem producing tons of fruit like guides / feedback for future encounters, the game is profitable, win.

  9. #8869
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Already said it once but... I don't think the factions will dissolve. Not the way people seem to think. Cross communication? Sure.
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance

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  10. #8870
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Quick as well. Pretty bold statement that only a minority enjoys raids. Do you have any facts to back this statement up? Or are you conflating your personal experiences with common knowledge?
    Yes, the proportion of players who raid at max level is about 50%, but about 40% of these is LFR. Mythic is less than 1%. See achievement counts on this site / stats on wowprogress, etc.

  11. #8871
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    I am asking for mythic+ instances because they are more challenging and provide more gameplay (and more rewards).

    M+ can be solo queueable. Add ratings and it is. Ratings solve the problem of "I am getting noobs who don't try hard". At the levels of difficulty where you have to have a cohesive setup, add picks and allow players to pick among their alts - or give them a generic alt of the spec you want with their gear level. High level mythic+ players have multiple alts for their roles - this would work the same way.

    What's the problem I am trying to solve? The one of manual grouping. For each player who is willing to do manual grouping there's 50-100 players who would do the exact same content if only they could solo queue. More partners, more mindshare, vastly bigger ecosystem producing tons of fruit like guides / feedback for future encounters, the game is profitable, win.
    Sure, making a group for M+ is slightly annoying. But most players who do them from my experience is people who wants to either do a weekly +10 for loot or those who enjoys doing content with friends.
    Neither of these hugely benefits from solo queues. Not to mention the very basis of the M+ system is the keystone. You would have to scrap that system, meaning the weekly run would either be based on RNG, in which case you would want to make as good a group as possible. Or you could choose which dungeon to do, in which case everyone would choose the same 2 or 3.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Yes, the proportion of players who raid at max level is about 50%, but about 40% of these is LFR. Mythic is less than 1%. See achievement counts on this site / stats on wowprogress, etc.
    50% is a perfectly healthy amount of players raiding.
    You would have maybe less than 10% of players who have yet to get into any form of raiding. Maybe 10% taking a break and maybe 30% who exclusively do PvP.

    Raiding is, i would imagine, still the biggest single block of the playerbase. Raiding is also the best draw Blizz has in the MMO market, no other MMOs manage raids on the same scale as WoW, not to mention that much of the lore of the games are centered around raids. Questlines lead up to them and dungeons are buildup.
    Not to mention Raids are the most important endgame we have. Either that or high-end PvP. Gear is useful almost solely because raids require ever higher levels of gear.

  12. #8872
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Already said it once but... I don't think the factions will dissolve. Not the way people seem to think. Cross communication? Sure.
    I agree, there’s a lot of work to be done that probably doesn’t offer a good enough benefit to undo the factions. I totally see cross-faction communication and grouping to an extent, but the Horde and Alliance will always be a division of some sort.

  13. #8873
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Sure, making a group for M+ is slightly annoying. But most players who do them from my experience is people who wants to either do a weekly +10 for loot or those who enjoys doing content with friends.
    Neither of these hugely benefits from solo queues. Not to mention the very basis of the M+ system is the keystone. You would have to scrap that system, meaning the weekly run would either be based on RNG, in which case you would want to make as good a group as possible. Or you could choose which dungeon to do, in which case everyone would choose the same 2 or 3.
    People only do mythic+ for the weekly chest *because* the system is boring, few people playing, nothing much going on. It takes effort to assemble a group if you are going with the group, or you have to be slaving it from the beginning of the expansion because PUGs demand RIO score. There's just no deciding "hey, I think I'll do mythic+", this ain't quick.

    Solo queues solve all of this - they give you the "hey, I think I'll do mythic+, got an hour, should be enough", they give you rating to work towards because that's a reward in and of itself (including materially: you get better partners) plus there might be rewards tied to it. There are also 100x more people doing it and as a consequence it pays off for Blizzard to spice things up more frequently, provide more instances, provide optional encounters, etc.

    With solo queues it all lives. Right now it just kind of lies on its back breathing heavily, few people doing it, cost of entry too big, bla bla bla.

    Anyway, I think we should wrap it up, let's leave space for other people to talk. I doubt solo queues will happen. They are a no brainer to me, but Blizzard just aren't doing them, not even in PVP. It's stupid, but it seems like WoW is cursed in that way, we'll have no solo queues because some Ion or his predecessor years ago decided that solo queues are "questionable" or whatever. Better add requisition quests, then have to fix them twice on live because they didn't have time to listen to feedback for the PTR.

  14. #8874
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    M+ can be solo queueable. Add ratings and it is. Ratings solve the problem of "I am getting noobs who don't try hard". At the levels of difficulty where you have to have a cohesive setup, add picks and allow players to pick among their alts - or give them a generic alt of the spec you want with their gear level. High level mythic+ players have multiple alts for their roles - this would work the same way.
    You can already do all that. Your queue adds nothing.

  15. #8875
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    50% is a perfectly healthy amount of players raiding.
    You would have maybe less than 10% of players who have yet to get into any form of raiding. Maybe 10% taking a break and maybe 30% who exclusively do PvP.
    Like I said, of those 50%, 40% are LFR. Take away LFR and you have 10%.

    PVP was done by more than 50%. Before they killed it (started in WoD, but the real bullet was in Legion). That's for perspective.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    You can already do all that. Your queue adds nothing.
    ???? No, I cannot. My proposed solo queue adds the ability to solo queue.

  16. #8876
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    ???? No, I cannot. My proposed solo queue adds the ability to solo queue.
    No, it only removes the ability to make any decisions about group composition. It does not add. You can already solo queue via group finder.

  17. #8877
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    No, it only removes the ability to make any decisions about group composition. It does not add. You can already solo queue via group finder.
    Group finder is not solo queue, solo queue is automatic, has ratings for matchmaking, forces solo.

    I commented on group composition above.

    Let's end it.

  18. #8878
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Group finder is not solo queue, solo queue is automatic, has ratings for matchmaking, forces solo.

    I commented on group composition above.

    Let's end it.
    Yes, lets just forget about this retarded idea.

  19. #8879
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    Like I said, of those 50%, 40% are LFR. Take away LFR and you have 10%.

    PVP was done by more than 50%. Before they killed it (started in WoD, but the real bullet was in Legion). That's for perspective.

    - - - Updated - - -



    ???? No, I cannot. My proposed solo queue adds the ability to solo queue.
    LFR is 40% because it is easy. And because there is no way to access raids that are easier.
    Mythic dungeons don't have that problem, they already have Normal dungeon which are solo queueable, and Heroic dungeons, which are also solo queueable.

    What you are proposing is basically like asking for Normal raids to become solo queueable because you want more prestigious raiding than what LFR offers, but you don't want it to be more difficult to compensate. You got that 200 mount achievement, but since another 100 is too difficult you are asking for free mounts so you can get the prestige of a higher difficulty effortlessly.

    PvP is still probably done by more than 50%. The 30% i mentioned are people who exclusively PvP, there are way more players who mix and match playstyles from across teh game. Just because i enjoy collecting mounts does not mean i don't enjoy progressing through Heroic.



    If M+ could be solo queued then all you have made is another layer on top of the already wholly unecessary 4 level of dungeons. We would easily make do with Normal dungeons as solo queue, followed by HC as premade and M+ as the endgame.



    One of WoWs biggest strenghts in my opinion is its highly diverse stratification of difficulty.
    As i mentioned above with prestigious stuff in general. If you want to get into mount collecting then you don't have to start at getting the 400 mount achivement. You can start by collecting all your factions basic mounts, which might take a week.
    If you want to start raiding you can go into LFR, which will allow you to see most of all the content in an easy way.
    If you want to do some dungeons then you can queue for Normal or HC.
    If you want to do PvP then you can queue for Random BGs.

    These are all the lowest level of each avenue of endgame. Higher levels require a larger time investment, for raids that means at least taking the time to check the group finder. For PvP it requires having to work your way up the ladder, starting by going to the group finder.

    All the basic version are like the pictures of a hamburger you get at a McDonalds, it is there and easily available. But you are not going to het haute cuisine. If you want that you need to seek it out or put effort into making it yourself.

  20. #8880
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    What you are proposing is basically like asking for Normal raids to become solo queueable because you want more prestigious raiding than what LFR offers, but you don't want it to be more difficult to compensate.
    I'll reply to one last thing, because this already appeared before and is recurring again: I am NOT after "more prestigious" raiding / instancing / whatever. I do not care about that, it is not about that. I am after more difficult encounters and interesting gameplay. That's all I want. Don't get me wrong, I'll take a reward as well if it is given, but this is about having or not having interesting gameplay first and foremost, rewards come after.

    Right now, taking instances, we have normal, heroic and mythic(+).

    I can do the first two (and I did them obviously), but they are trivial and uninteresting. And unrewarding, but as I said, that comes second, the main issue is that they are trivial and uninteresting. I am trying to solo what I can to make it more interesting, and that's something, but instances aren't tuned for that, that's going against the grain and so brings little results.

    I can do mythic(+), but without solo queue (automatic and with ratings, etc), in order to do them I have to first get into a manual group. That getting into a group is a much bigger challenge than doing the instance. It takes tons of time. Worse, that time is spent on something completely unrelated to the game. And as a result of this nonsense, the entire ecosystem is tiny and people are just concerned with their weekly chest. It just isn't worth it.

    So, let's please leave this "you want more prestigious raiding than what LFR offers, but you don't want it to be more difficult to compensate". It's exactly the reverse - I want it to be more difficult, ideally with the difficulty gradually increasing like in M+, because that makes things more interesting and produces long-term gameplay. The rewards are secondary, and the "prestige" I don't care about at all. It's just that we don't have it in WoW. We only have the stupid system where difficulty and interest is behind artificial barriers.

    BTW, LFR is 40% (vs normal+ just 10%) not so much because it is easy, but because it is auto-queueable. (And no, PVP is done by less than 50% now - about 7-10% in the last season of Legion. BFA didn't make things better either.)

    Hope what I say is clearer now.

    PS: It occurred to me what they might do for 8.3 to make it good - BFA version of the mage tower. If that could have gradually increasing difficulty levels as well, it'd have been so great. Still would want solo queue for mythic+ / other things, but at least would have something interesting to do.
    Last edited by rda; 2019-07-06 at 02:37 PM.

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