BfA Patch Speculation thread (8.3 and later).

[DeicideUH]

That campaign starts out as Alliance losing and end up winning and Horde losing. There's no way that can be done without screwing over one faction over the other. Sure I'm happy the Alliance won but it still isn't going to feel good for the Horde.

It's just a matter of giving each faction enough victories and be able to downsize the defeats. Alliance takes a zone, Horde takes another. You can quest through a losing battle, and yet your actions change the outcome enough to fill they mattered. Both sides could lose heroes. The war could end with each side gaining one main objective, but neither being able to overcome the other.

The thing with war in WoW so far is that it doesn't feel like a war most of the time. You don't really participate in a war campaign.

[Blayze]

I think that between Dragons, Death and Old Gods as the theme for the last patch, it's NOT going to be Dragons.

Dragon Isles are mentioned and Wrathion shows up with an updated model, sure, but usually the last patch of an expansion incorporates a lot of models and creatures from throughout the expansion. They never have HUGE amounts of new models: even Argus was mostly existing creatures with some new demons introduced.

If it was Dragon Isles, there would need to be updates to: every basic dragon model, Drakonids, Dragonmen, Kalecgos, Alexstraza, Nozdormu.

Meanwhile, basically every single Old God creature (besides C'thun's gang) has received an update, and not only have the old scourge models gotten updates but there have been a bunch of new Death themed creatures in BFA as well (the green ghost slimes, green spectral spirits, the skinny ghost wraiths that are chained up, new ghost models for Humans/Zandalari/Night Elves/Tauren, etc etc). So it's much more likely going to be either Death or Old God as a patch zone (or maybe both) rather than them updating basically every single Dragon-related thing in one patch. Warbringers themeing for each patch make me think it'll be more Sylvanas themed than Old Gods even if Nzoth does show up and is a major part of it.

I can see them doing a massive overhaul of Dragons (as well as the Dragon Isles themselves) in a future expansion (likely 9.0) but not a single patch.

Either that or Death is the theme for 8.3's Timeless Isle-alike.

[Shampro]

It's just a matter of giving each faction enough victories and be able to downsize the defeats. Alliance takes a zone, Horde takes another. You can quest through a losing battle, and yet your actions change the outcome enough to fill they mattered. Both sides could lose heroes. The war could end with each side gaining one main objective, but neither being able to overcome the other.

The thing with war in WoW so far is that it doesn't feel like a war most of the time. You don't really participate in a war campaign.

The War doesn't even feel like a war, it's basically Horde vs Horde from a meta perspective. It started it out as one on paper, they immidiately shat the bed AGAIN. It's clear that they can't do it, it also appears like they're arfraid to do anything actually groundbreaking.

[DeicideUH]

The War doesn't even feel like a war, it's basically Horde vs Horde from a meta perspective. It started it out as one on paper, they immidiately shat the bed AGAIN. It's clear that they can't do it, it also appears like they're arfraid to do anything actually groundbreaking.

Yeah, a proper war expansion should have the war present in the leveling experience. We would conquer the earlier zones for our factions, then enter and quest through the enemy territory in later parts, and have a big campaign at max level. Most repeatable content would be on battles in the frontlines.

Instead, we got to explore new lands, then do a espionage/sabotage campaign at max level. It never felt like a war except for warfronts, which were also very lackluster.

[Zaganite]

Yeah, a proper war expansion should have the war present in the leveling experience. We would conquer the earlier zones for our factions, then enter and quest through the enemy territory in later parts, and have a big campaign at max level. Most repeatable content would be on battles in the frontlines.

Instead, we got to explore new lands, then do a espionage/sabotage campaign at max level. It never felt like a war except for warfronts, which were also very lackluster.

while I agree with this, the Alliance leveling experience did feel like war especially in Stormsong since the Horde were bang in the middle of the questing chain but again I do agree with what you said. Once they did the split zone leveling, it really drove the war apart. We should have remained in the same zones

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Yeah, a proper war expansion should have the war present in the leveling experience. We would conquer the earlier zones for our factions, then enter and quest through the enemy territory in later parts, and have a big campaign at max level. Most repeatable content would be on battles in the frontlines.

Instead, we got to explore new lands, then do a espionage/sabotage campaign at max level. It never felt like a war except for warfronts, which were also very lackluster.

Going to invade older areas for new content wouldn't end well. Even using Kul'Tiras and Zandalar as new areas, still need explanations on whats going on there which would detract from the Faction war.

[DeicideUH]

Going to invade older areas for new content wouldn't end well. Even using Kul'Tiras and Zandalar as new areas, still need explanations on whats going on there which would detract from the Faction war.

I'm on the camp that thinks using old areas for higher level content could be a great experience if done well.
Fighting for places we know gives a stronger feel for the war than doing so in new lands we have no connection with.

- - - Updated - - -

while I agree with this, the Alliance leveling experience did feel like war especially in Stormsong since the Horde were bang in the middle of the questing chain but again I do agree with what you said. Once they did the split zone leveling, it really drove the war apart. We should have remained in the same zones

It still is only 1/3 of a zone dedicated to the war. And even it was a last minute decision since Blizzard scrapped the original plans for the zone (the Quilboar invasion plot was supposed to be way more important originally).

[MrExcelion]

Yeah, a proper war expansion should have the war present in the leveling experience. We would conquer the earlier zones for our factions, then enter and quest through the enemy territory in later parts, and have a big campaign at max level. Most repeatable content would be on battles in the frontlines.

Instead, we got to explore new lands, then do a espionage/sabotage campaign at max level. It never felt like a war except for warfronts, which were also very lackluster.

And the BoD raid, but yeah, it feels like other xpacs where they put a bunch of themes together without really committing to anything too heavily. Emerald Nightmare felt out of place to start Legion.

[Shoggoth]

Yeah, a proper war expansion should have the war present in the leveling experience.

Cataclysm made it better in that way.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

And the BoD raid, but yeah, it feels like other xpacs where they put a bunch of themes together without really committing to anything too heavily. Emerald Nightmare felt out of place to start Legion.

Variety.


"I'm SICK OF FEL GREEN!11111"

[DeicideUH]

Cataclysm made it better in that way.

Cataclysm had some very interesting zones, but one of the problems in it is how they were handled. Most Horde victories happen in Alliance questing, and there's almost no Alliance victories. That ended up unsatisfying for both sides, as most have no victories earned by the players. Even Horde questlines with Horde victories feel very empty because Horde then got the villain ball.

Stonetalon? The bomb ends up being used in innocent people and a tauren camp is massacred. Silverpine? You let the gilneans go and Sylvanas is betrayed. Andorhal? Val'kyr sabe the day and your commander is sent to be tortured.

After so many zones like that, in which neither faction can feel heroic, it's no wonder people fear more faction conflict. Who plays to feel miserable?

[Hellspawn]

Cataclysm had some very interesting zones, but one of the problems in it is how they were handled. Most Horde victories happen in Alliance questing, and there's almost no Alliance victories. That ended up unsatisfying for both sides, as most have no victories earned by the players. Even Horde questlines with Horde victories feel very empty because Horde then got the villain ball.

Stonetalon? The bomb ends up being used in innocent people and a tauren camp is massacred. Silverpine? You let the gilneans go and Sylvanas is betrayed. Andorhal? Val'kyr sabe the day and your commander is sent to be tortured.

After so many zones like that, in which neither faction can feel heroic, it's no wonder people fear more faction conflict. Who plays to feel miserable?

If I remeber in correctly, in Ashenvale, you first win with Horde... and after that you fight back with the night elfs.

The problem with these kind of stories that mention the bigger picture of cataclsym, it ages really badly. I rather have a Zone plot that it not tied to the current expansion main plot.

[DeicideUH]

If I remeber in correctly, in Ashenvale, you first win with Horde... and after that you fight back with the night elfs.

The problem with these kind of stories that mention the bigger picture of cataclsym, it ages really badly. I rather have a Zone plot that it not tied to the current expansion main plot.

Even your win in Ashenvale, you use demonic magic and then is admonished by Garrosh for it. Later, you move to Silverwing post, where the corpses of the massacrated night elves are still all around, and the Horde is using furbolgs (and gnomes) as slaves.

Blizzard seemed really set on passing the message that "war is hell". It's fine to show that sometimes, but in Cataclysm it was really all over the place.

[Yarathir]

Hope they aren't planning on going the Kerrigan route.

Part of me kind of wants them to try (and fail spectacularly) to redeem Sylvanas. The level of unrelenting mediocrity would be astounding and entertaining.

[Drekmar]

Warcraft 3 was not about faction war, thought. At most, Alliance and Horde had some skirmishes in Kalimdor.

If they wanted to do a faction war properly, they should base it off Warcraft 2. Now THAT is faction war.

Ahh, WC2. Simply the best.

[Hellspawn]

Even your win in Ashenvale, you use demonic magic and then is admonished by Garrosh for it. Later, you move to Silverwing post, where the corpses of the massacrated night elves are still all around, and the Horde is using furbolgs (and gnomes) as slaves.

Blizzard seemed really set on passing the message that "war is hell". It's fine to show that sometimes, but in Cataclysm it was really all over the place.

Well the good thing is, all of your atrocities is forgiven and forgotten even if you lose the war.

[Sondrelk]

I suppose the major problem in this expansion specifically in regards to faction war is that the major premise Saurfang posits at the beggining. That of the Horde having finally gone too far and being locked into a war of annihilation with an enemy that wants nothing more than to see their entire race and culture erased is not that believable.

The expansion should rest on the Horde having to choose between being the monsters the Alliance thinks they are in a bid to win, or attempt to act honorable to right the wrongs the Horde has done.
The Alliance should (at least in my mind) have been posted around the philosophical debate over whether the Horde is inherently evil, going by the vast amounts of atrocities commited while under orders. Or whether the fault rests on the few who spins the information.

But Blizz is dedicated to making the fight "fair" by giving equal losses to both, meaning the threat the Alliance supposedly poses to the Horde rings a bit false. Similarly the Alliances legitimate grievances are shoved away in favor of a landslide of moralistic posturing.


All in all, the faction war story is not suited to WoW. Which is why i am quite happy Blizz is taking steps to end it conclusively this time.

[hattahat]

The enemy of all life will be redeemed again

[matrix123mko]

The enemy of all life will be redeemed again

I think all life is bad at choosing its enemies. They are usually its saviors. Is all life stupid?

[Verdugo]

The enemy of all life will be redeemed again

Oh for fucks sake...