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  1. #1

    A new class shouldn't be a priority

    The currently existing classes have never been in a worse state than they are since Legion and BFA, with an abundance of problems including: spec fantasy was prioritized over existing class fantasy, ability pruning has compressed skill gaps and made gameplay stale and one dimensional, tuning problems exist in both PvE and PvP.

    Therefore it should be a bigger priority of the development team to fix the existing 36 specs and ensure that every single one of them is fun to play, mechanically interesting, feels connected to the greater class first with the specialization being more secondary, and well tuned for PvE and PvP content, BEFORE introducing any new specs or classes into the game.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  2. #2
    New classes are probably the biggest draw an expansion can have. It's no surprise that expansions without one (Cata, WoD, BfA) aren't very well received compared to those with one (WotLK, MoP, Legion). A new class often coincides with big shake ups in the meta and keeps the game fresh.

    What you're saying should be done in parallel sure, but it shouldn't stop them from designing and introducing a new class.

  3. #3
    Coming from classic, while not perfect, classes are 100x more fun in bfa than they were back then. I would however like to see a shift towards the more wrath to mop era design

    That said, bring in a new class too, new classes are fun

  4. #4
    This isn't an either/or scenario. They can create a new class and implement class changes that are pretty far reaching at the same time. MoP is proof of this.

  5. #5
    Blizzard seem to be invested in a cycle of introduce a new class > put off classes for tweaks/redesign due to workload > tweak through aura buffs as a bandaid instead of addressing gameplay > introduce new class. New classes are probably what they'll do, but I would still prefer they focused on addressing issues with existing classes

  6. #6
    If they can't do both, the game will die. New content and game balance are both vital.

  7. #7
    There's no evidence to suggest classes ended up here for any reason other than Blizzard wanted them here. They stripped them down to the bare roots in the hope of making rented power for each expansion as a modular thing and it just isn't working.

    They can add new classes and redesign the old ones. They work on these expansions for years and don't do shit to classes for 2 years at a time anyhow. They've got all the time in the world, especially considering how little they even add with a new class these days.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    The currently existing classes have never been in a worse state than they are since Legion and BFA, with an abundance of problems including: spec fantasy was prioritized over existing class fantasy, ability pruning has compressed skill gaps and made gameplay stale and one dimensional, tuning problems exist in both PvE and PvP.

    Therefore it should be a bigger priority of the development team to fix the existing 36 specs and ensure that every single one of them is fun to play, mechanically interesting, feels connected to the greater class first with the specialization being more secondary, and well tuned for PvE and PvP content, BEFORE introducing any new specs or classes into the game.
    I disagree, classes are better today than they were in Classic.
    A 9 page spellbook means I still spam frostbolt as my only ability.

    But yes, classes are still not great.
    My opinion is MoP era was as close to awesome for me, for the classes I played back then (hunter, druid, priest, dk, mage) both in terms of PVE and PVP.
    They are definitely not in the worst state, though.

    Fixing them is a bigger challenge, because your first point is to "make them fun", but that's largely subjective, so let's skip that.

    Mechanically interesting, what does that mean?
    You have basically two 'common' methods today: builder-builder-spender or spam-proc-spam
    What other methods can tie in?
    WW monk is in a neat spot, to me, where you neither spam nor always use the same builder-spender rotaiton (it varies based on a couple short cds), so maybe having more of that would be good? But would that take from the unique-ish feel of WW?
    How do you make 36 specs mechanically interesting if they don't all borrow from the same principles?

    Connection to the class, I agree completely.
    A lot of specs feel kind of wedged in for shits, not really like a staple of what you think of when you think of <insert class here>.
    Class identity, especially in terms of gameplay with CDs and such, does feel lacking in many cases (some specs are actually pretty solid tho, like MW monk).
    This definitely needs addressed.

    But the thing is, there's teams for each class.
    It's not really taking from any class to introduce new ones; they just have another team handle it.
    Classes are also a major draw to an xpac, especially if(when) we get Tinkers because people have pined over it for so long and it only makes sense now that there are 4 races whose backgrounds are all about tinkering.

    So ideally, classes have some iconic abilities built into each spec, with possibly more varied gameplay other than the two common ones above, and then a different team builds a new class with 2 or 3 specs that also feel identifiable, unique, and crisp to play.
    I think both are equally important to keep things rolling along.

  9. #9
    Judging from Legion, it can always be both.

  10. #10
    There probably will be a new class in 9.0, it's such a huge selling point for an X-pack. I just hope it's something interesting rather than making Engineering into a class (Tinker) UGH.

  11. #11
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    Unless you have every class at 120, you opinion doesn't really mean much. I agree with OP, the current classes/specs can be built up and given new abilities that make them feel fresh. Hell my enhance shaman didn't even get a rework going into BFA and people are already jumping to "Please papa blizzard, new class!" Again, unless you play every class at max level, you don't get to voice your thoughts on this. They can add as many races as they want, but we're at the point where there's no room for new classes. To make a new class, you need to add 25-30 new abilities. Ofc there will be some crossover/similarities to previous classes, but they'll for a fact, have new abilities that distinguish them. Those abilities can very easily be applied to the current classes to make them feel new again.

    It honestly drives me up a wall when people say "New class, new class!" when they don't even play all the current ones. Anyone who does play every class can tell you certain specs need more attention as some classes can feel 1 dimensional. This is a prime opportunity to make some sick/unique abilities for every current spec.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    I disagree, classes are better today than they were in Classic.
    A 9 page spellbook means I still spam frostbolt as my only ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    Mechanically interesting, what does that mean?
    You have basically two 'common' methods today: builder-builder-spender or spam-proc-spam
    What other methods can tie in?
    I agree with many things that you said but I want to highlight these two statements because they indicate an all too common failure to see the class outside of the damage rotation. If all you do is think about the sequence of buttons you press to deal damage, you are actually taking an extremely limited view of class design. Too many in the community take this view, and it has lead to Blizzard too often designing for this mindset as well.

    Raid rotation notwithstanding, I encourage you to try to excel in classic PvP as a mage where a single rank of frostbolt is the only spell you cast. Let me know how that goes for you.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Adp View Post
    It's no surprise that expansions without one (Cata, WoD, BfA) aren't very well received compared to those with one (WotLK, MoP, Legion).
    This is just statistical cherry-picking imo. I think we all know that those expansions being crap had very little to do with a new class, and everything to do with their designs. BfA wouldn't be any better if they had added Tinkers or Dragoncucks or whatever other nonsense class the community is frothing over these days. BfA is bad because it's systems and designs are bad.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I agree with many things that you said but I want to highlight these two statements because they indicate an all too common failure to see the class outside of the damage rotation. If all you do is think about the sequence of buttons you press to deal damage, you are actually taking an extremely limited view of class design. Too many in the community take this view, and it has lead to Blizzard too often designing for this mindset as well.

    Raid rotation notwithstanding, I encourage you to try to excel in classic PvP as a mage where a single rank of frostbolt is the only spell you cast. Let me know how that goes for you.
    In PVP, that's true enough for Classic, though to be fair, Classic PVP versus, well, any PVP Wrath and beyond, are like comparing night and day.
    I wouldn't say I feel more connected to my character because I used rank 1 FB instead of rank 4 (because my goal was the resulting slow, not the damage).
    I also wouldn't say the class design around having so many abilities that were nearly useless is good either, though.
    Any mage, for example, will tell you that, while it's fun to spam arcane explosion here and there for shits and gigs, it's a massive threatwhore and it's basically you screaming "Kill me next!" as your hands fly up in joy of the hate you generate from both mobs and your tank alike.

    PVP today, well, that's just CD timing and, depending on the meta in which you fit, a dash of hope and prayer.

  15. #15
    I agree, and chances are that Blizzard does too. We have little to no reason to believe a new class is coming out next expansion.

    We do have reason however to think a significant retweaking of the existing classes is in order, based on comments about class design from developers in the last year or two. The message that they missed the mark has been heard loud and clear, I think, and chances are they're going to try to fix shit before releasing something new.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marxman View Post
    This is just statistical cherry-picking imo. I think we all know that those expansions being crap had very little to do with a new class, and everything to do with their designs. BfA wouldn't be any better if they had added Tinkers or Dragoncucks or whatever other nonsense class the community is frothing over these days. BfA is bad because it's systems and designs are bad.
    If anything I think it simply shows that those expansions had more effort put into them, nothing more than that. It's hard to deny the trend of shitty filler expansions at this point.

    I absolutely want to play a dragoncuck though, let me know when that comes out.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jujudrood View Post
    PVP today, well, that's just CD timing and, depending on the meta in which you fit, a dash of hope and prayer.
    That's more a product of arena's than anything, when they had to balance pvp around small groups is when pvp started getting dull.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I agree, and chances are that Blizzard does too. We have little to no reason to believe a new class is coming out next expansion.

    We do have reason however to think a significant retweaking of the existing classes is in order, based on comments about class design from developers in the last year or two. The message that they missed the mark has been heard loud and clear, I think, and chances are they're going to try to fix shit before releasing something new.

    If anything I think it simply shows that those expansions had more effort put into them, nothing more than that. It's hard to deny the trend of shitty filler expansions at this point.

    I absolutely want to play a dragoncuck though, let me know when that comes out.
    Oh, there will 100% be a new class, if there isn't people will yell that they (Blizzard) have given up on wow because we've had one every other expansion since Wrath, plus Blizzard wants $$ and new classes sell expansions like hot cakes

  17. #17
    I take new gameplay over number tweaking any day.
    Then again you don't really have to choose since class designers and balance is often two seperate entities. They work together ofc, but class design has more to do with flow and concept of gameplays while balancing is more about number tweaking and what utility works and not. Utility spells is the biggest overlap between class design and balance. Damage, tank and healing spells not so much.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by HulkSmasher View Post
    There probably will be a new class in 9.0, it's such a huge selling point for an X-pack. I just hope it's something interesting rather than making Engineering into a class (Tinker) UGH.
    Wish it was that obvious for everyone on this site.

  19. #19
    Why does everyone keep comparing to classic? People liked MoP classes. Compare BFA classes to MoP or even Legion. Everyone knows classic classes were trash designed.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    This isn't an either/or scenario. They can create a new class and implement class changes that are pretty far reaching at the same time. MoP is proof of this.
    Every class they add is going to be a bigger challenge design wise than the one that came before. There are only so many ways to do WoW combat. Hell, they only managed to come up with 2 specs for DH even though they were already stealing from other specs (Demo basically got sacrificed in order to promote DH). If you think this isn't an either/or scenario, you simply haven't been paying attention.

    If they decide to add a new class, they will have to make room for it which probably means that we're going to see another round of pruning & redesign of existing classes/specs. Seeing how DHs turned out, I'd rather not see another class in WoW.
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2019-10-08 at 05:21 PM.

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