BfA Patch Speculation thread (8.3 and later).

[Aeluron Lightsong]

People care about the faction, they just aren't as fussy about it either.

[Nyel]

Didn't keep track in the last weeks, is there anything important about 8.2 which predicts what happens in 8.3 / 9.0 or nothing special yet?

[Sondrelk]

Horde and Alliance is getting a major shakeup soon, that seems fairly certain. Though i do not htink that measn the factions will "disappear". They will still be separate for all intents and purposes, and the cross-faction activities will likely be limited to non-pvp instanced content and maybe some quests.

Back to story though, the problem is not really that the Horde is inherently evil, it is definitely a case of them getting the short straw when it comes to leaders. However, BtS said it best when Sylvanas' internal monologues talk about how the Horde are a savage and warlike people who will jump at any chance to sate their bloodlust, and despite this being a common thing that should be shown as wrong, BfA has done nothing but prove that Sylvanas was correct, and the Horde as a whole simply cannot be trusted to be peaceful unless forced, which is a shame.

At the beginning of the expansion i thought up a scenario where the Alliance could concievably "forgive" the Horde, and both factions could end up at the point where they ideally should be (Friendly, but not allies)
However, the scenario would have required the Horde to undisputedly lose the war. This would have opened up for an organic way to show the MoP lesson of Horde and Alliance needing to work together for the better good, instead of Alliance working it solo because they don't trust the Horde.

Now, most likely a faction losing at the end of the expansion is not really a likely end. Most Alliance will get is probably MoP 2.0 where Anduin slaps their wrist and walks away. But it would be nice if Blizz could subvert this and show the Horde suffering consequences for their actions, which is a necessary step for future growth.

[EbaumsTipster]

Now, most likely a faction losing at the end of the expansion is not really a likely end. Most Alliance will get is probably MoP 2.0 where Anduin slaps their wrist and walks away. But it would be nice if Blizz could subvert this and show the Horde suffering consequences for their actions, which is a necessary step for future growth.

I think both factions are going to simultaneously lose (Anduin and Sylvanas lose power, Saurfang and someone on Alliance (Genn??) likely will die, factions are fragmented) while still "winning" in the end (which seems to be getting rid of Sylvanas or something old god/death related).

[Nyel]

MAGA- Make Alliance Great Again
#Jaina2020
#ImwithHer2020

[Sondrelk]

I think both factions are going to simultaneously lose (Anduin and Sylvanas lose power, Saurfang and someone on Alliance (Genn??) likely will die, factions are fragmented) while still "winning" in the end (which seems to be getting rid of Sylvanas or something old god/death related).

I suppose one of the overarching problems with the faction war vis-a-vis the nature of how the story in an MMO is told is that for a sotyr like this to feel satisfying at the end, the villain, in this case Sylvanas, has to not only lose physically, but be shown to be wrong morally and with a wrong outlook on life.

If peace is only possible because the Horde beat the Alliance to any degree, even if that just means evening the odds. Then Sylvanas is implicitly correct in her beliefs, which is not very satisfying.
The only way for Sylvanas to be shown as wrong unless her internal monologues were not her own, is for Alliance to win, and then spare the Horde, showing that they are better than them.

However, this will likely never happen, meaning the story which would have ended with Alliance winning, but sparing the Horde to create a better future is left hamstrung.

[Eurhetemec]

Now, most likely a faction losing at the end of the expansion is not really a likely end. Most Alliance will get is probably MoP 2.0 where Anduin slaps their wrist and walks away. But it would be nice if Blizz could subvert this and show the Horde suffering consequences for their actions, which is a necessary step for future growth.

Yeah I think that could work very well, either for ending the conflict or keeping it going. I feel like Blizzard have actually been somewhat bored of Alliance-Horde conflict of a straightforward kind since WC3, long before WoW. And I suspect the majority of the audience doesn't have a particular investment in the conflict, either. Most people who have a lot of Alliance or Horde memorabilia even tend to not actually be extremists, in my experience, but to enjoy that stuff in the same way they enjoy sports-team memorabilia. And I think that Blizzard could safely reduce the conflict between the two sides to essentially small-scale conflicts over specific areas, between specific groups.

I know that internally Blizzard were talking about Horde-Alliance team-ups for specific content as far back as the AQ era. Initial plans for AQ had involved a form of Horde-Alliance team-up, but they were abandoned (apparently more for technical reasons than anything else).

As you said, if they actually had a serious defeat or serious consequences at the end of this expansion, that could create a "New Horde", especially with Thrall in charge, because honestly it seems like Thrall and Anduin would get on extremely well. I feel like even Thrall and Genn or someone might get on okay. So they could have the Alliance win, there big consequences in terms of territorial changes and/or people executed and so on, then they could have Thrall and Anduin make some kind of really formal pact where they work together on most things. Then you've still got room for the BGs and other brushfire conflicts, but you could have the max-level game allowing Horde and Alliance to work together on stuff in the new expansion and so on.

Equally if they wanted to prolong the conflict, you go a similar route but end it differently. You have the Alliance win and force "unfair" conditions on the Horde, and/or do something stupid and WMD-ish, which leads to a "Neutral Zone"-type situation, where there are buffer territories and so on, which neither side is supposed to mess with, but both sides will. You probably kill off Anduin in this scenario, or Thrall, more likely Anduin though.

Certainly actually having one side achieve something, rather than endless back-and-forth, would be a good way to move the story forward.

[TaliaKirana]

I'm hoping BfA really is the end of the faction war. It's a plot arc that has worn out its welcome for me.

[huth]

this is just assumption, there was no canon source saying varian could "end" the horde permanently there, just the war would go even more darker.

SoO wants a word with you.

Europe certainly has a story of war that had a relatively sudden end after World War 2, mostly because of the EU (which coincidentally is what i assume the potential Horde/alliance unifaction will look like)

But saying that this is the same as Horde and Alliance is not really true.

And i didn't.

[Sondrelk]

SoO wants a word with you.



And i didn't.

Ahh, sorry. I might have read your post a bit too quickly then. Good to know we are on the same page though.

[Nathanyel]

SoO wants a word with you.

Saying he would, doesn't mean he could.

[huth]

Saying he would, doesn't mean he could.

The Alliance had an army in the middle of Orgrimmar, while the Horde troops were in disarray and heavily decimated. He pretty definitely could have.

[EbaumsTipster]

I suppose one of the overarching problems with the faction war vis-a-vis the nature of how the story in an MMO is told is that for a sotyr like this to feel satisfying at the end, the villain, in this case Sylvanas, has to not only lose physically, but be shown to be wrong morally and with a wrong outlook on life.

I think all it takes is for dead people to call her out and say "fuck you, you're wrong, Life is worth saving" and betray her.

This is already being built up with Lilian Voss, Calia AND Delaryn Summermoon (who will obviously become Anti-Sylvanas) so I think it's going to happen 100%.

[Syegfryed]

SoO wants a word with you.
.

yeah Jaina words are just that her assumptions, in that room the alliance would be more fucked than the horde

[Directionalk9]

I'm hoping BfA really is the end of the faction war. It's a plot arc that has worn out its welcome for me.

It’s not hard to say that about any of the three other enemy forces either.

[Nathanyel]

The Alliance had an army in the middle of Orgrimmar, while the Horde troops were in disarray and heavily decimated. He pretty definitely could have.

Do we actually know about remaining troop strengths?

Say Varian had decided to attack the Horde leaders instead of talking to the new Warchief. Garrosh's throne room can't have held many other troops. So even the outcome of that attack would've been uncertain, depending on the lore-wise combat abilities of the racial leaders. Even if the Alliance won, some of their leaders could've died, and especially Anduin was still quite untrained and thus a likely casualty.

Taran Zhu and possible other Shadopan were still near and would've noticed, and could have intervened, especially if the Horde signaled they did not want this. This means more standing against the Alliance and basically cancelling out any greater troop number.

It's also questionable whether the other Alliance leaders would have followed that order. Tyrande (at the time) and Mekkatorque were quite level-headed, and while Moira is an uncertain factor, Genn, but also Velen, were not present. I believe Genn and Jaina would've been the only ones in favor of attacking the Horde at this point in time.

And that's still just in the throne room. If word of the attack reached the streets of Orgrimmar, could the remaining Alliance forces, without preparation, have held against the Horde soldiers and the freed and returning civilians, many of whom likely fought in the Third War?
Even if the Alliance had won and taken/razed Orgrimmar, that would still leave several other Horde cities. The Horde continued to exist, now hellbent on getting revenge. No guarantee this could have been dealt with without losing many thousands more of Alliance soldiers, not to mention any number of smaller settlements and even cities, had thr Horde decided to take out their anger on, say, Teldrassil.

Neutral factions would have tried to negotiate peace, or would even stand against the Alliance, now effectively an evil faction, for intending to kill their members from Horde races. Either way, this would slow Varian's plan to "end" the Horde.

I like to think that Varian decided to (metaphorically) extend his hand out of compassion and a willingness for peace, but I'm also sure he would have been aware of these scenarios, the factors of chance and uncertainty necessary to win.

[vertigo12]

Yeah I think that could work very well, either for ending the conflict or keeping it going. I feel like Blizzard have actually been somewhat bored of Alliance-Horde conflict of a straightforward kind since WC3, long before WoW. And I suspect the majority of the audience doesn't have a particular investment in the conflict, either. Most people who have a lot of Alliance or Horde memorabilia even tend to not actually be extremists, in my experience, but to enjoy that stuff in the same way they enjoy sports-team memorabilia. And I think that Blizzard could safely reduce the conflict between the two sides to essentially small-scale conflicts over specific areas, between specific groups.

I know that internally Blizzard were talking about Horde-Alliance team-ups for specific content as far back as the AQ era. Initial plans for AQ had involved a form of Horde-Alliance team-up, but they were abandoned (apparently more for technical reasons than anything else).

As you said, if they actually had a serious defeat or serious consequences at the end of this expansion, that could create a "New Horde", especially with Thrall in charge, because honestly it seems like Thrall and Anduin would get on extremely well. I feel like even Thrall and Genn or someone might get on okay. So they could have the Alliance win, there big consequences in terms of territorial changes and/or people executed and so on, then they could have Thrall and Anduin make some kind of really formal pact where they work together on most things. Then you've still got room for the BGs and other brushfire conflicts, but you could have the max-level game allowing Horde and Alliance to work together on stuff in the new expansion and so on.

Equally if they wanted to prolong the conflict, you go a similar route but end it differently. You have the Alliance win and force "unfair" conditions on the Horde, and/or do something stupid and WMD-ish, which leads to a "Neutral Zone"-type situation, where there are buffer territories and so on, which neither side is supposed to mess with, but both sides will. You probably kill off Anduin in this scenario, or Thrall, more likely Anduin though.

Certainly actually having one side achieve something, rather than endless back-and-forth, would be a good way to move the story forward.

World of Warcraft merged the then 4 faction of WC3 down to 2. Horde+Scourge's Forsaken sub group, Alliance (Human)+NE Sentinels.

[Eurhetemec]

World of Warcraft merged the then 4 faction of WC3 down to 2. Horde+Scourge's Forsaken sub group, Alliance (Human)+NE Sentinels.

Um, thanks, yes I did play WC3 at the time it came out. Good information I guess?

Perhaps your unspoken implication is that they're going to reverse back into that position? What would that look like? Would the NEs and Forsaken each stand alone? Where the Alliance and Horde had a whole bunch of races? Or would they rope another race or three in?

I mean, NE + Worgen is a fairly natural pairing, but it's not going to happen whilst Genn lives - he's too loyal to Anduin. And I don't see anyone siding with the Forsaken.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Um, thanks, yes I did play WC3 at the time it came out. Good information I guess?

Perhaps your unspoken implication is that they're going to reverse back into that position? What would that look like? Would the NEs and Forsaken each stand alone? Where the Alliance and Horde had a whole bunch of races? Or would they rope another race or three in?

I mean, NE + Worgen is a fairly natural pairing, but it's not going to happen whilst Genn lives - he's too loyal to Anduin. And I don't see anyone siding with the Forsaken.

That would be a regression not progression.

[Hitei]

yeah Jaina words are just that her assumptions, in that room the alliance would be more fucked than the horde

Literally all she had to do was port the Alliance out of the city and then destroy it with the focusing iris like she was going to before Kalec convinced her not to.