BfA Patch Speculation thread (8.3 and later).

[Sondrelk]

I am asking for mythic+ instances because they are more challenging and provide more gameplay (and more rewards).

M+ can be solo queueable. Add ratings and it is. Ratings solve the problem of "I am getting noobs who don't try hard". At the levels of difficulty where you have to have a cohesive setup, add picks and allow players to pick among their alts - or give them a generic alt of the spec you want with their gear level. High level mythic+ players have multiple alts for their roles - this would work the same way.

What's the problem I am trying to solve? The one of manual grouping. For each player who is willing to do manual grouping there's 50-100 players who would do the exact same content if only they could solo queue. More partners, more mindshare, vastly bigger ecosystem producing tons of fruit like guides / feedback for future encounters, the game is profitable, win.

Sure, making a group for M+ is slightly annoying. But most players who do them from my experience is people who wants to either do a weekly +10 for loot or those who enjoys doing content with friends.
Neither of these hugely benefits from solo queues. Not to mention the very basis of the M+ system is the keystone. You would have to scrap that system, meaning the weekly run would either be based on RNG, in which case you would want to make as good a group as possible. Or you could choose which dungeon to do, in which case everyone would choose the same 2 or 3.

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Yes, the proportion of players who raid at max level is about 50%, but about 40% of these is LFR. Mythic is less than 1%. See achievement counts on this site / stats on wowprogress, etc.

50% is a perfectly healthy amount of players raiding.
You would have maybe less than 10% of players who have yet to get into any form of raiding. Maybe 10% taking a break and maybe 30% who exclusively do PvP.

Raiding is, i would imagine, still the biggest single block of the playerbase. Raiding is also the best draw Blizz has in the MMO market, no other MMOs manage raids on the same scale as WoW, not to mention that much of the lore of the games are centered around raids. Questlines lead up to them and dungeons are buildup.
Not to mention Raids are the most important endgame we have. Either that or high-end PvP. Gear is useful almost solely because raids require ever higher levels of gear.

[Directionalk9]

Already said it once but... I don't think the factions will dissolve. Not the way people seem to think. Cross communication? Sure.

I agree, there’s a lot of work to be done that probably doesn’t offer a good enough benefit to undo the factions. I totally see cross-faction communication and grouping to an extent, but the Horde and Alliance will always be a division of some sort.

[rda]

Sure, making a group for M+ is slightly annoying. But most players who do them from my experience is people who wants to either do a weekly +10 for loot or those who enjoys doing content with friends.
Neither of these hugely benefits from solo queues. Not to mention the very basis of the M+ system is the keystone. You would have to scrap that system, meaning the weekly run would either be based on RNG, in which case you would want to make as good a group as possible. Or you could choose which dungeon to do, in which case everyone would choose the same 2 or 3.

People only do mythic+ for the weekly chest *because* the system is boring, few people playing, nothing much going on. It takes effort to assemble a group if you are going with the group, or you have to be slaving it from the beginning of the expansion because PUGs demand RIO score. There's just no deciding "hey, I think I'll do mythic+", this ain't quick.

Solo queues solve all of this - they give you the "hey, I think I'll do mythic+, got an hour, should be enough", they give you rating to work towards because that's a reward in and of itself (including materially: you get better partners) plus there might be rewards tied to it. There are also 100x more people doing it and as a consequence it pays off for Blizzard to spice things up more frequently, provide more instances, provide optional encounters, etc.

With solo queues it all lives. Right now it just kind of lies on its back breathing heavily, few people doing it, cost of entry too big, bla bla bla.

Anyway, I think we should wrap it up, let's leave space for other people to talk. I doubt solo queues will happen. They are a no brainer to me, but Blizzard just aren't doing them, not even in PVP. It's stupid, but it seems like WoW is cursed in that way, we'll have no solo queues because some Ion or his predecessor years ago decided that solo queues are "questionable" or whatever. Better add requisition quests, then have to fix them twice on live because they didn't have time to listen to feedback for the PTR.

[huth]

M+ can be solo queueable. Add ratings and it is. Ratings solve the problem of "I am getting noobs who don't try hard". At the levels of difficulty where you have to have a cohesive setup, add picks and allow players to pick among their alts - or give them a generic alt of the spec you want with their gear level. High level mythic+ players have multiple alts for their roles - this would work the same way.

You can already do all that. Your queue adds nothing.

[rda]

50% is a perfectly healthy amount of players raiding.
You would have maybe less than 10% of players who have yet to get into any form of raiding. Maybe 10% taking a break and maybe 30% who exclusively do PvP.

Like I said, of those 50%, 40% are LFR. Take away LFR and you have 10%.

PVP was done by more than 50%. Before they killed it (started in WoD, but the real bullet was in Legion). That's for perspective.

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You can already do all that. Your queue adds nothing.

???? No, I cannot. My proposed solo queue adds the ability to solo queue.

[huth]

???? No, I cannot. My proposed solo queue adds the ability to solo queue.

No, it only removes the ability to make any decisions about group composition. It does not add. You can already solo queue via group finder.

[rda]

No, it only removes the ability to make any decisions about group composition. It does not add. You can already solo queue via group finder.

Group finder is not solo queue, solo queue is automatic, has ratings for matchmaking, forces solo.

I commented on group composition above.

Let's end it.

[huth]

Group finder is not solo queue, solo queue is automatic, has ratings for matchmaking, forces solo.

I commented on group composition above.

Let's end it.

Yes, lets just forget about this retarded idea.

[Sondrelk]

Like I said, of those 50%, 40% are LFR. Take away LFR and you have 10%.

PVP was done by more than 50%. Before they killed it (started in WoD, but the real bullet was in Legion). That's for perspective.

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???? No, I cannot. My proposed solo queue adds the ability to solo queue.

LFR is 40% because it is easy. And because there is no way to access raids that are easier.
Mythic dungeons don't have that problem, they already have Normal dungeon which are solo queueable, and Heroic dungeons, which are also solo queueable.

What you are proposing is basically like asking for Normal raids to become solo queueable because you want more prestigious raiding than what LFR offers, but you don't want it to be more difficult to compensate. You got that 200 mount achievement, but since another 100 is too difficult you are asking for free mounts so you can get the prestige of a higher difficulty effortlessly.

PvP is still probably done by more than 50%. The 30% i mentioned are people who exclusively PvP, there are way more players who mix and match playstyles from across teh game. Just because i enjoy collecting mounts does not mean i don't enjoy progressing through Heroic.



If M+ could be solo queued then all you have made is another layer on top of the already wholly unecessary 4 level of dungeons. We would easily make do with Normal dungeons as solo queue, followed by HC as premade and M+ as the endgame.



One of WoWs biggest strenghts in my opinion is its highly diverse stratification of difficulty.
As i mentioned above with prestigious stuff in general. If you want to get into mount collecting then you don't have to start at getting the 400 mount achivement. You can start by collecting all your factions basic mounts, which might take a week.
If you want to start raiding you can go into LFR, which will allow you to see most of all the content in an easy way.
If you want to do some dungeons then you can queue for Normal or HC.
If you want to do PvP then you can queue for Random BGs.

These are all the lowest level of each avenue of endgame. Higher levels require a larger time investment, for raids that means at least taking the time to check the group finder. For PvP it requires having to work your way up the ladder, starting by going to the group finder.

All the basic version are like the pictures of a hamburger you get at a McDonalds, it is there and easily available. But you are not going to het haute cuisine. If you want that you need to seek it out or put effort into making it yourself.

[rda]

What you are proposing is basically like asking for Normal raids to become solo queueable because you want more prestigious raiding than what LFR offers, but you don't want it to be more difficult to compensate.

I'll reply to one last thing, because this already appeared before and is recurring again: I am NOT after "more prestigious" raiding / instancing / whatever. I do not care about that, it is not about that. I am after more difficult encounters and interesting gameplay. That's all I want. Don't get me wrong, I'll take a reward as well if it is given, but this is about having or not having interesting gameplay first and foremost, rewards come after.

Right now, taking instances, we have normal, heroic and mythic(+).

I can do the first two (and I did them obviously), but they are trivial and uninteresting. And unrewarding, but as I said, that comes second, the main issue is that they are trivial and uninteresting. I am trying to solo what I can to make it more interesting, and that's something, but instances aren't tuned for that, that's going against the grain and so brings little results.

I can do mythic(+), but without solo queue (automatic and with ratings, etc), in order to do them I have to first get into a manual group. That getting into a group is a much bigger challenge than doing the instance. It takes tons of time. Worse, that time is spent on something completely unrelated to the game. And as a result of this nonsense, the entire ecosystem is tiny and people are just concerned with their weekly chest. It just isn't worth it.

So, let's please leave this "you want more prestigious raiding than what LFR offers, but you don't want it to be more difficult to compensate". It's exactly the reverse - I want it to be more difficult, ideally with the difficulty gradually increasing like in M+, because that makes things more interesting and produces long-term gameplay. The rewards are secondary, and the "prestige" I don't care about at all. It's just that we don't have it in WoW. We only have the stupid system where difficulty and interest is behind artificial barriers.

BTW, LFR is 40% (vs normal+ just 10%) not so much because it is easy, but because it is auto-queueable. (And no, PVP is done by less than 50% now - about 7-10% in the last season of Legion. BFA didn't make things better either.)

Hope what I say is clearer now.

PS: It occurred to me what they might do for 8.3 to make it good - BFA version of the mage tower. If that could have gradually increasing difficulty levels as well, it'd have been so great. Still would want solo queue for mythic+ / other things, but at least would have something interesting to do.

[AngerFork]

Already said it once but... I don't think the factions will dissolve. Not the way people seem to think. Cross communication? Sure.

I think I agree...? Not sure.

My personal vision for how this will work out is that Alliance and Horde will still exist as factions, but will actually be able to communicate and work together. Alliance races playing in Horde raid groups and vice versa. The Alliance will get all of the Eastern Kingdoms, the Horde all of Kalimdor. But there will still be a difference in the quests offered per faction and there will still be skirmishes in new lands for resources (hence PvP).

But to get rid of factions fully right after changing to War Mode-style PvP servers would feel really weird IMO.

[Sondrelk]

-snip-

Very well, i suppose the discussion has gone on long enough. Just a last thought though.

Consider why it just so happens that all queueable content is easier than those only doable by premade groups. And try to consider if there is a link. Because it would be quite the coincidence if all the easy content just so happens to be the one that was over time made queueable.



8.3 will also not likely have a mage tower. Features like that take quite some time to make, and if we get it in 8.3 then it would likely be quite rushed.
Not to mention it would feel quite constrained by the relatively short time until 9.0.
I would much rather Blizz focuses their efforts on making a good mage tower equivalent for 9.0 that is designed to last the entire expansion. Or even something a bit more modular like islands that can stand on its own producing content for a long time.

[AngerFork]

8.3 will also not likely have a mage tower. Features like that take quite some time to make, and if we get it in 8.3 then it would likely be quite rushed.
Not to mention it would feel quite constrained by the relatively short time until 9.0.
I would much rather Blizz focuses their efforts on making a good mage tower equivalent for 9.0 that is designed to last the entire expansion. Or even something a bit more modular like islands that can stand on its own producing content for a long time.

Personally, I tend to disagree with putting things like the Mage Tower in 9.0 as opposed to 8.3. Features like that and Brawler's Guild work well to give players new tasks to work on while waiting for the next expansion to come out. Something like 9.0 is when we are going to be swarmed with new features as well as whatever the new endgame grind will be. Something like the Mage Tower will only distract from that.

Plus the resources to create a Mage Tower aren't nearly as intense as it might seem IMO. 6 or so boss scenarios, a small setup to get into them, perhaps mix in some sort of gear scaling so you can't just overpower it, and then something as the reward. Does it really need much more than that?

[Sondrelk]

Personally, I tend to disagree with putting things like the Mage Tower in 9.0 as opposed to 8.3. Features like that and Brawler's Guild work well to give players new tasks to work on while waiting for the next expansion to come out. Something like 9.0 is when we are going to be swarmed with new features as well as whatever the new endgame grind will be. Something like the Mage Tower will only distract from that.

Plus the resources to create a Mage Tower aren't nearly as intense as it might seem IMO. 6 or so boss scenarios, a small setup to get into them, perhaps mix in some sort of gear scaling so you can't just overpower it, and then something as the reward. Does it really need much more than that?

The boss itself and the way to get in is the easy part. But then you have to find a context for it to work, you cannot simply have an NPC in Stormwind that teleports you to an empty room with a boss inside.

Then you need ot make sure that the bosses are balanced properly. Would not do if you made 6 bosses and half the classes can beat them with ease and the other half struggles the entire expansion. Just consider the blood elf boss and how large the gap was in difficulty between Affliction and frost mage.

Then you need rewards, and these rewards should hopefully be something prestigious to match the difficulty, and each spec that finishes it has to get something useful to them.
Class specific armor for isntance is relatively low work, but is still a full set of high quality armor models that needs to be made.
Someone mentioned race specific weapons, which is a laughable prospect considering the amount of work, but that is at least on the high end.


I do really want another Mage tower that can give me the same satisfaction i got in Legion from finishing all the DPS and tank challenges, but i don't want htem to rush it. And a mage tower think in 8.3 is definitely on the brink of rushing it.

[EbaumsTipster]

Racial weapons are a very high possibility for an 8.3 mage tower reward, as they keep making themed weapons for AR NPCs that players can't access yet.

The problem with this however is that some races already have racial weapons in BFA (Humans/Orcs/Undead/Nelf from the warfront) and also some ARs already have racial weapons from their zones (Kul Tiran/Zandalari).

[Sondrelk]

Racial weapons are a very high possibility for an 8.3 mage tower reward, as they keep making themed weapons for AR NPCs that players can't access yet.

The problem with this however is that some races already have racial weapons in BFA (Humans/Orcs/Undead/Nelf from the warfront) and also some ARs already have racial weapons from their zones (Kul Tiran/Zandalari).

Racial weapons is the problem though.
Can you actually concieve of how many weapons would be needed for each race?
Obviously each one would have to get a new set of weapons. And even if we are extremely conservative and count all the overlap. We would still end up with having ot create well over a hundred unique weapons. Just as many weapons as we got from the entirety of Legions artifact system, and that is not counting the Artifact weapon recolors.

It is easy to think that every race has a hidden cache of weapons perfectly designed to appeal to their class just waiting in hte rafters. But most don't. And the ones that do only have a few weapons.

[Lazarel]

this just popped on 4chan, looks like azerite + dragon themed expansion.
Or its just another fake thing since the name of the expansion is the same with a couple of other leaks
http://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/469413803

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

What do you mean by "wrong"? You can question its legitimacy, but there's nothing in that leak that Blizz couldn't do or stated they'd never do, or anything that completely contradicts previous story/gameplay (except the Bolvar part, but that may be something explained in the meantime, or simply something the artist understood wrong)

Not verifiably wrong. Just.... "there is no way they're going to about face on Allied Races and instead make them customization options" wrong. The vegas bet wrong.

[EbaumsTipster]

this just popped on 4chan, looks like azerite + dragon themed expansion.
Or its just another fake thing since the name of the expansion is the same with a couple of other leaks
http://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/469413803

Even if it's fake the next expansion is going to have a lot of dragons anyway.

[Marlamin]

this just popped on 4chan, looks like azerite + dragon themed expansion.
Or its just another fake thing since the name of the expansion is the same with a couple of other leaks
http://boards.4channel.org/v/thread/469413803

If anything, that's a great looking logo. Detail on the planet in the middle is looking pretty good too, even from a blurry picture. Not an easy fake for sure! If it ends up being fake I'd love to see a higher resolution one.

EDIT: It might be worth noting the name matches this leak from March: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-0-information