Scaling and a few other things

[Constraint]

Scaling mobs with character levels is great, in my opinion. Why would you want to invalidate the vast majority of the world? Sure, it'd make no sense for say an Elwynn Forest sheep or kobold to put up a decent fight, but in current content? Why would you only want a tiny portion of the map to remain relevant?

What genuinely DOES annoy me though is when they scale mobs with your gear level. That royally pisses me off. Why even get new gear if the mobs will just take the same length of time to kill, and do just as much % damage to you as they did before? It's just retarded.

[darklogrus]

Leveling scaling might work if the player scaling wasn't drastically broken, the gear drops werent abysmal and the stats on the gear actually mattered..

[Rakshata]

Level scaling: good, prevents the problem old zones had of only going on a set route; though blizz didn't fix it enough for older expansions. No mid-range minimum level blizz!

ILvl scaling: die in a fire. Just... go die. Completely murdered any desire to do anything beyond getting rep. It's not worth it to get better gear if nothing gets easier as a result.

I get not wanting everything to be a one shot... but right now it is too many shot and we can't assuage that with "it'll get better with ilvl" because ilvl no longer matters outside gatekeeping.

[Drusin]

I don't like it and I never will in any game (looks at Elder Scrolls).

Oh, I'm talking about ilvl scaling, level scaling is fine the way Blizz has it at the moment.

[dragnipur]

I still remember all the threads and complaining before and after 7.3.5 leveling revamp.How easy it was before it and how the open world delivered 0 danger.Then the leveling got revamp but nothing changed the mob's health was just bigger but the danger was not there.Well Blizzard listened!The revamped scaling is not something new, it's been like this since Argus. They tuned it down, but it was never removed.But in the end look what happened with Argus.Once you overgear the content it becomes easier.
People have just leveled at the moment.They don't have any meaningful gear.Of course you must be weak.Once M+ and raids open you will not have that problem anymore.
To easy mobs people complain.To hard mobs people complain.Blizzard can't win here....

[deragot7]

But that pool of "everyone" was selected due to them liking it and having to accept it as a premise of the game. I bought GW2 and quit soon after I realised that when I got back to a hard zone I'd leveled past, the game just scaled me down to my previous power level. My progress felt diminished if not pointless.

WoW used to not have scaling for so many years, hence why many of us who play did not appreciate that it was implemented in a game that previously was perfectly able to provide engaging content without such measures.

This is one of the two features which the game is build around.The 2nd one is the vertical progression.If you remove just one of them the game will be no more.GW2 was just not for you.You prefer playing MMOs with Horizontal progression.

Blizzard saw the scaling is popular in other MMOs(GW,SWTOR,ESO) and copied it to WoW.Well it works only in Open world and nowhere else unlike the other 3 games.Power progression,farming gear and levels is still a huge part of WoW and will always be.A bit scaling is not such a problem if Blizzard start balancing it better.

[Deleted]

Scaling should be a mob catch-up mechanic. When you're 280-310 you're the one doing the catchup, the mobs shouldn't even start scaling until you hit like 330.
In Legion they introduced it because most classes were killing mobs in just a few seconds. Which is totally not the case right now.

[Deathquoi]

Agree with this.

Pretty funny that 110-115 I was killing mobs 1/2 as fast as from 118-120. Scaling is just stupid. I would rather see WQ go byebye....and I actually enjoy them, but I dislike scaling more, so I'd rather have a zone with blue ! like in MoP...

This happens literally every expansion and has nothing to do with scaling. It is caused by going from having raid tier 3 level gear at 110 to quest reward and dungeon gear at 120. Players that don’t raid at 110 will see a much smoother progression.

[Ophenia]

Level scaling is fine. Ilevel scaling is just an abomination and whoever thought it was a great idea should be sentenced to death.

Empowering your character through equipment and adventures is exactly the point of MMORPGs. If enemies are always threatening to you whatever your equipment is, there is literally no point in playing the game at all.
Especially in 2018 WoW where WQ are 75% of the content (98% as long as raids aren't here).

[Maneo]

Agree with this.

Pretty funny that 110-115 I was killing mobs 1/2 as fast as from 118-120. Scaling is just stupid. I would rather see WQ go byebye....and I actually enjoy them, but I dislike scaling more, so I'd rather have a zone with blue ! like in MoP...

I am no fan of one shotting mobs, but this shit is crazy.

Wife and I leveled I did a detro lock, she ran a Beast Master Hunter, till about level 116 we were tearing through stuff to the point where we were pulling every mob we needed for a quest in one go and agreed this is silly.

Then we hit 117 still able to pull multipile mobs and down them w/relitive ease. However the decline came rapid. Now @ 120 I pull 3 mobs there is a real good chance I am screwed as they will tear through my voidwalker in seconds ... If my wife and I are not focusing on the same three trash mobs it is a real possibility that we are toast.

Now I would be fine w/this however I am gaining levels, and getting better gear i should not be getting weaker for Gods sake.

[Alkizon]

dragnipur
When i 1st tried scaling in 2012 it was something new i never tried before.It was a strange thing to not overgear and one shot things.But with time i started to enjoy it.It makes grouping better and more enjoyable.Makes you to want meet people and group with them.Combine it with mob and node shared tagging and personal loot you no more fear of people stealing your items,mobs or nodes.So actually i'm a huge fan of a few things:

1. Scaling
2.Mob and node shared tag
3.Personal loot

Three other MMOs have it a long time before Blizzard even thought about stealing the idea and deciding to try it.I'm glad they did.I hope they keep improving it.I also hope they let all levels be salable and not just from 110 to 120.

GW2 has those things since 2012(from day one) and everyone likes it.

SWTOR has scaling since 2015 and people DO NOT dislike it.
https://massivelyop.com/2015/10/01/s...fallen-empire/

ESO also has it since 2017 i think.
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/eld...more-mmos-need

In GW2 the scaling works better because the game is build around horizontal progression so you never get stronger instead you become more prettier which is NOT a bad thing.To each his own.
In SWTOR you have horizontal progression but even with it the scaling is still in place and it does not bother people.
ESO has horizontal progression (leveling and gearing) exactly like SWTOR but still the scaling is also present and people are fine with it.

Since the begging of Legion Blizzard added it to WoW and now with BFA they are trying to improve it.I'm glad with their decision.What people must understand is that you have barely leveled to 120.You don't have any good and meaningful gear.Start doing mythics.Wait for raids and M+ to open.Once you have gear from there you will be again able to aoe pull trash mobs in Open world like you did in Legion.Or is your memory so short?

More MMOs will have scaling in the future not less.People should get this into their heads.

And yet again:

Scaling isn't belong to this game, never should be.

6. Bad world+ (and not only) scaling +(+/+)+/+/+/+/+/+/+/+

By the way, not looking at the fact that these games possible were made with scaling perspective, but I also never liked it there, because it's one of main signs of solo games (world adapts to the player, but should be vice versa: player tries to survive in world with unchangable own rules (there is no rule that make scaling justifed in this world) - this is exactly that old good element of sandbox, which connects MMORPG (socium) of that generation).

Same applies to all your three points. They violate social connections and interactions, and also don't obey any logic (physics, mechanism, rules) in this game world.

ps. And - No, people should not clog their heads with such unreasonable nonsense. Everything is done simply, accurately and most important completely justly and reasonably - as it was done before. Developers should be more educated and inventive, not lazier and cheater.

Arainie
Ya'll asked for "MUH POWAH" and you got scaling to combat "MUH POWAH" being too great. One shotting mobs when you're decked out in epics before raids even open is braindead gameplay.

This community is so freaking spoiled with easy gameplay that it makes me sick. You start whining every time something takes time or requires some kind of effort. God forbid you'd need to heal yourself with food or bandages between pulls. The only way you end up temporarily happy is if you can pull 10 mobs as soon as you're out of leveling greens, and even then you're going to complain that there's no content because you complete everything so damn quickly. Impossible to please. Either it's too easy, too hard, too little, too much or just "bad writing". The only thing we know for sure is that you're going to complain!

Finally, I'll let you in on a little secret; If you're not killing regular mobs faster at 340 than you are at 300 it's a you issue and not a scaling issue!

If everything is done correctly (itemization, characters growth power/characteristics, game world organization, correct locations and quests design, etc.), then scaling won't be necessary, everything will happen by itself. Another thing is that they do all this wrong and and since ones pursues the others, than they needed scaling as a result. What they're doing now is similar to treating wart by cutting it off - it's just not working and has chance to lead to many unpleasant results *skeptically looking at current state of game's design*

They treat consequence, not the cause.

dragnipur
Scaling is a good thing in my book.I have great experience with it in GW2,SWTOR and now in WoW.For me nothing changed much since the start of Legion going into Argus and now in BFA.It's nothing new, it's been like this since Argus.More and better gear makes things die faster.

Scaling was one of many shortcomings that contributed to withdrawing from these games for me. But still about WoW here talking are we hrmm...

As for others (1-2):
- you're taking away need to perform actions in the group from players, and therefore to communicate (without auto-bulls*t), and therefore game violate exactly this social aspect that I talked about (each one fighting alone, looting alone, and playing... alone) - this is very much bad, but many people are just too lazy to analyze consequences of this or that innovation (which I have already repeatedly mentioned);
- and by the way "stealing" is also a social aspect (trust, preference for friendship, responsibility in making decisions, etc.), but since it was already killed by cross-realm activity (and I already said that all these elements, which has wrong design, connected and interdependent)... so it turned out that such introduction limits your social experience, but doesn't enrich it/teaches you (this is commonplace psychology + basic logic) = Blizzard should not solve this problem, it's not for them, this decision belong to community (how story will go in one way or another), all that Blizzard should do is give community opportunity to act independently (create conditions, like it happened before), but they somehow fear/don't want to let it be like that (let to be responsible) → they allow players to be irresponsible, which is contrary to teaching aspect in game theory (is it clear?);
- in addition, from point of design view, all this also naturally slowed down speed of character progression and obsolescence of content.
That's how it all worked... but not what you're talking about right now.

So again, you're wrong.

caervek
Indeed.

Would have been so much better if the three zones had contained mobs 110-113, 114-117 and 118-120. With no dumb scaling until a player hits 120 then all three zones scale.

Won't work (as they want) too, since incredible stats inflation will starts again at 120 because of broken itemization+. There could be 120/123/125~/elite (as was before this cheating) in certain areas for open world which inaccessible (higher/deeper/difficulter) to weaker players and don't need any scaling - this is lazy, superficial, unreasonable solution to a problem that can only be solved together with others, not separately.

[Arainie]

Ya'll asked for "MUH POWAH" and you got scaling to combat "MUH POWAH" being too great. One shotting mobs when you're decked out in epics before raids even open is braindead gameplay.

This community is so freaking spoiled with easy gameplay that it makes me sick. You start whining every time something takes time or requires some kind of effort. God forbid you'd need to heal yourself with food or bandages between pulls. The only way you end up temporarily happy is if you can pull 10 mobs as soon as you're out of leveling greens, and even then you're going to complain that there's no content because you complete everything so damn quickly. Impossible to please. Either it's too easy, too hard, too little, too much or just "bad writing". The only thing we know for sure is that you're going to complain!

Finally, I'll let you in on a little secret; If you're not killing regular mobs faster at 340 than you are at 300 it's a you issue and not a scaling issue!

[dragnipur]

And yet again:
By the way, not looking at the fact that these games possible were made with scaling perspective, but I also never liked it there, because it's one of main signs of solo games (world adapts to the player, but should be vice versa: player tries to survive in world with unchangable own rules (there is no rule that make scaling justifed in this world) - this is exactly that old good element of sandbox, which connects MMORPG (socium) of that generation).

Same applies to all your three points. They violate social connections and interactions, and also don't obey any logic (physics, mechanism, rules) in this game world.

My experience from GW2 and SWTOR is absolutely different from what you are describing and I disagree with you complete on the underlined sentence.

1. Mob and node sharing is a good thing in a MMO.You want to play with people and not to avoid them like a plague.This is a massive multiplayer game not a single player one.It's important to play with people.When you are not fighting over resources and mobs people start to group more.GW2 is perfect example of how social can be the MMOs.Also look how much WoW changed with Legion.Blizzard there introduced a 5 player mob tagging at the beginning of the expansion and shared nodes for 5 minutes before disappearing.This ended the non stop complains of stealing mobs and nodes.

2. The introduction of personal loot removed the stealing of items.Does it need improving?Definitely.The removal of master looter was a mistake.It could have been reserved only for guilds.For example to be able to use it you must have 15 guild members in the group.

3. Scaling is a good thing in my book.I have great experience with it in GW2,SWTOR and now in WoW.For me nothing changed much since the start of Legion going into Argus and now in BFA.It's nothing new, it's been like this since Argus.More and better gear makes things die faster.

[Deleted]

Once you overgear the content it becomes easier.
People have just leveled at the moment.They don't have any meaningful gear.Of course you must be weak.Once M+ and raids open you will not have that problem anymore..

You seem to not understand that content now also scales with ITEMLEVEL. So getting better gear does NOTHING. Thát is the biggest problem. Level scaling is okish (I still hate it, but I understand it and accept it). Itemlevel scaling can go die in a fire.

[caervek]

Scaling is the worst thing that has ever happened to this game, right after sharding and phasing.

Indeed.

Would have been so much better if the three zones had contained mobs 110-113, 114-117 and 118-120. With no dumb scaling until a player hits 120 then all three zones scale.

[deragot7]

scaling is horrible! Why did i just bother with 10 lvls nothings changed? the mobs i fought at 110 are now 120 and hitting like 120's heck i lvled as prot and when i went from 119 to 120 i had to change my plan of attack pre 120 it was pull everything thing and live, i hit 120 and it was ok pull 4-8 and keep cool downs ready, it wasn't till ilvl 300 that 120 felt like 119. I warned my friends still leveling to expect the 119 to 120 jump to suck

This happens literally every expansion and has nothing to do with scaling. It is caused by going from having raid tier 3 level gear at 110 to quest reward and dungeon gear at 120. Players that don’t raid at 110 will see a much smoother progression.

I agree with Deathquoi@,
World mobs have an ilvl cap that they scale to, it coincides with the cap on the rewards world quests provide. Once you are above that, you continue to scale and mobs stay at the cap.
It's nothing new, it's been like this since Argus. They tuned it down a bit but it will never be removed.
Also some classes are doing better than others because plate gives more damage reduction to physical attacks so a plate class would feel it less pressure from the scaling.

The character progression is perfect, I started out with struggling with 2 guys, now I can pull about 7 and win (with defensives). This makes the game so much more interesting. I do agree that at the start it felt incredibly bad, especially coming from legion in which we could pull the entire world and live. Just keep playing, once you get better gear things will get easier and better.

In a month you will be back to your 20 mobs pulls without any worry and people will start complaining again how mobs are to easy,how there is no challenge and so on.Keep farming peeps.You will feel strong soon.

[Aphrel]

1. I prefer actually feeling more powerful when i gear up.
2. Shared tagging and shared nodes are indeed awesome. I no longer hate everyone i see ingame for being in my vicinity (similar to how i am in traffic xD).

I am on the fence with sharding. On the positive side, it seems to have eliminated quetimers as population on any server is no longer an issue. Also even during prime time its never so crowded as to make whatever you want to do impossible.

The downside whould be that regardless of when i play there will always be other players where i am.. i never get to enjoy being alone farming something. This has made all the oldworld content very painful to farm. (try farm the insane title for instance.. you are never alone pickpocketing...)

3. Personal loot as an option is good, forced personal loot is bad. Let organized guilds choose themselves how they want to distribute their loot. And if blizzard feels that ninjaing in pugs is out of control then limit options for non-guild raids.

[cuafpr]

I agree with Deathquoi@,
World mobs have an ilvl cap that they scale to, it coincides with the cap on the rewards world quests provide. Once you are above that, you continue to scale and mobs stay at the cap.
It's nothing new, it's been like this since Argus. They tuned it down a bit but it will never be removed.
Also some classes are doing better than others because plate gives more damage reduction to physical attacks so a plate class would feel it less pressure from the scaling.

The character progression is perfect, I started out with struggling with 2 guys, now I can pull about 7 and win (with defensives). This makes the game so much more interesting. I do agree that at the start it felt incredibly bad, especially coming from legion in which we could pull the entire world and live. Just keep playing, once you get better gear things will get easier and better.

In a month you will be back to your 20 mobs pulls without any worry and people will start complaining again how mobs are to easy,how there is no challenge and so on.Keep farming peeps.You will feel strong soon.

disagree my gear didn't change between 119 and 120 the mobs got much greater boost at 119 to 120 than any other level jump. I think 100% of my gear from legion was replaced by the time i was 119 so i was in the same gear a non-raider would be in as well. I didn't raid mythics so its not like i had top end gear either anyways. Also doesn't address scaling makes leveling pointless, no new talents, no new abilities or perks... why bother. And i love leveling.

[deragot7]

Aphrel@
I agree with you.Forced personal loot is shit.Blizzard could have kept master loot for the guilds only in game in one way or another.
Mob and node tag sharing is hell awesome yea.I love it in GW2 and i'm happy Blizzard copied it to WoW.

[Kwaai]

Do you guys really not feel like you're getting stronger as you're gearing up at 120? The difference between hitting 120 at 280 ilvl or whatever and 330+ is monumental.