Suggestion: Ban accusations of Whataboutism

[caervek]

As title basically, I'm suggesting that accusing other forum posters of Whataboutism should be banned or simply treated as the trolling it is.

For those unfamiliar with it, accusations of Whataboutism were a cold war trolling technique employed by western journalists/governments in an attempt to try and discredit valid arguments/concerns put forward by Soviet countries, it worked as so:

1. West does something.
2. Soviets do the exact same thing.
3. The west complains.
4. Soviets point out the west just did the exact same thing.
5. West cries Whataboiutism.

It's been revived in recent years as an online form of sticking your fingers in your ears and singling "LALALALALA" because you can't think of a counter argument, it's on par with typing "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID" and quite frankly it's getting really annoying that trolls can simply use it as an IWIN button for any argument.

A good example is that recently there was a case in the UK where a man almost went to jail for an "offensive" video where he taught a puppy to raise it's paw when he yelled "SEIG HEIL", this was due to hate speech/crime laws clashing with the meme age, there was a thread about it. Then this week a virtually identical case occurred in Russia due to their similar hate speech/crime laws clashing with the meme age and again there was a thread about it, however when anyone attempted to point the directly applicable comparison out to the Russiophobes who had gathered to complain that Russia needed to get rid of it's evil laws (dating back to the 90's and essentially the same as the EU's) they just stuck their fingers in their ears and yelled Whataboutism, it pretty much stifled any viable discussion in the thread and just turned it into a nation bashing circle ****.

[Delano]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[CasualNoob]

So you ignored Russian Federation being bad by starting offtopic "nazi puppy" mumble, and you want ban users that don't like that?

[Super Kami Dende]

Meh, just do what I do. Anytime you see someone that always screeches about Whataboutism use a Whataboutism, point it out to them incessantly so they realise how much of an incredible hypocrite they are.

Works well for basically any progressive you'll see on this Website.

[Deleted]

As title basically, I'm suggesting that accusing other forum posters of Whataboutism should be banned or simply treated as the trolling it is.

For those unfamiliar with it, accusations of Whataboutism were a cold war trolling technique employed by western journalists/governments in an attempt to try and discredit valid arguments/concerns put forward by Soviet countries, it worked as so:

1. West does something.
2. Soviets do the exact same thing.
3. The west complains.
4. Soviets point out the west just did the exact same thing.
5. West cries Whataboiutism.

It's been revived in recent years as an online form of sticking your fingers in your ears and singling "LALALALALA" because you can't think of a counter argument, it's on par with typing "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID" and quite frankly it's getting really annoying that trolls can simply use it as an IWIN button for any argument.

A good example is that recently there was a case in the UK where a man almost went to jail for an "offensive" video where he taught a puppy to raise it's paw when he yelled "SEIG HEIL", this was due to hate speech/crime laws clashing with the meme age, there was a thread about it. Then this week a virtually identical case occurred in Russia due to their similar hate speech/crime laws clashing with the meme age and again there was a thread about it, however when anyone attempted to point the directly applicable comparison out to the Russiophobes who had gathered to complain that Russia needed to get rid of it's evil laws (dating back to the 90's and essentially the same as the EU's) they just stuck their fingers in their ears and yelled Whataboutism, it pretty much stifled any viable discussion in the thread and just turned it into a nation bashing circle ****.

This is it, this it the worst post I have ever seen on any internet forum.

It is also the post that best sums up 2018. Please get off of the fucking internet you utter moron.

[baskev]

As title basically, I'm suggesting that accusing other forum posters of Whataboutism should be banned or simply treated as the trolling it is.

For those unfamiliar with it, accusations of Whataboutism were a cold war trolling technique employed by western journalists/governments in an attempt to try and discredit valid arguments/concerns put forward by Soviet countries, it worked as so:

1. West does something.
2. Soviets do the exact same thing.
3. The west complains.
4. Soviets point out the west just did the exact same thing.
5. West cries Whataboiutism.

It's been revived in recent years as an online form of sticking your fingers in your ears and singling "LALALALALA" because you can't think of a counter argument, it's on par with typing "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID" and quite frankly it's getting really annoying that trolls can simply use it as an IWIN button for any argument.

A good example is that recently there was a case in the UK where a man almost went to jail for an "offensive" video where he taught a puppy to raise it's paw when he yelled "SEIG HEIL", this was due to hate speech/crime laws clashing with the meme age, there was a thread about it. Then this week a virtually identical case occurred in Russia due to their similar hate speech/crime laws clashing with the meme age and again there was a thread about it, however when anyone attempted to point the directly applicable comparison out to the Russiophobes who had gathered to complain that Russia needed to get rid of it's evil laws (dating back to the 90's and essentially the same as the EU's) they just stuck their fingers in their ears and yelled Whataboutism, it pretty much stifled any viable discussion in the thread and just turned it into a nation bashing circle ****.

will not work. There are so many ways for them to "troll" us all.

They will instead of whataboutism, use half facts, just ingore stuff etc... all just to troll. Just reacted to a thread a other day. The thread starter sidestepped very important stuff that took the whole conversation out of context.
They will always find a way to do what they want to do. Get attention and troll around.

[owbu]

Can we also ban people who acuse me of strawmaning, hyperbole or distracting people with personal attacks? I don't like it when people challenge my bad arguments.

[caervek]

Wait people accusing you of a commonly accepted logical fallacy is something you cannot handle and you want them banned? Maybe try not making logical fallacies?

Read the post, nobody uses Whataboutism claims to attack logical fallacies these days (not that they ever really did), they just use them to fling muck at legitimate arguments they have no retort to (as per the example I gave).

Crying Whataboutism is trolling, plain and simple, and in 2018 it's becoming a big problem on forums where it's still tolerated.

[Deleted]

Seems like you are trying to educate people about Whataboutism, more than anything in this thread.

Have to agree that I dislike Whataboutism - It will side-track almost all debates. Let's discuss one matter a time.

Though, people think that they can use "Whataboutism" to justify their actions/reasonings - Which is why you can't call it trolling.

[caervek]

No, using whataboutism is just a pointless attempt to change the subject

How exactly is presenting a legitimate on topic and relevant point "a pointless attempt to change the subject"? >.>

Like it or not, when somebody is attempting to nation bash a country for something, the fact it also applies equally to their own country and they're being a huge hypocrite by either giving their own country a free pass on their outrage or just pretending to be outraged at something they are fine with at home, IS a a legitimate and valid point.

[Yunru]

Whatabauthism is used quite a lot when some americas get shot on XXX event, to always mention gun control, wich you guess it, has nothing to do with tread.

For example.

Any person who derails thread with this *thing*, should get infacted in my option (or at least warned). Stay on topic or dont comment.

[Endus]

If you don't want to get called out for making irrational and misleading arguments meant to derail a conversation rather than contribute to it, try participating in good faith.

Also, it bears noting that caervek has the background for this entirely wrong; whataboutism got labelled when the Soviets started using it as a propaganda tool. His attempt to paint Westerners negatively with it is itself propaganda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
https://www.merriam-webster.com/word...origin-meaning


If the mods should be taking action, here, it isn't against those calling out whataboutism, it's against those using whataboutism to troll and derail the forums.

And seriously, let's take a moment and understand that caervek is posting to support Stalin and his regime, here. That the accusations against Stalin were just Western propaganda. Let that sink in, folks.

[Thage]

Perhaps instead of banning accusations of whataboutism, we should look into heavily discouraging 'bad-faith debates,' when people go into political debates looking to stir shit up and otherwise act in, well, bad faith, rather than go into a discussion with the intent of exchanging ideas and engaging in honest discourse. The most cancerous thing in OT is when someone swaggers dick-first into a politics thread, plays dumb, or goes on some multi-paragraph screed only tangentially-related to the topic about their favorite boogeyman, whatever that may be, with the aim of derailing the topic or cherry-picking comments to smugly generalize every other poster with related ideologies and act like they scored some major moral victory over 'the other side.'

edit: After all, if people would buck up and stop trying to deflect with "But Hillary/Obama/Bush/Cheney/Hitler/etc./etc./etc." people would stop calling them out for it. If you come in bad faith and get your fee-fees hurt when people don't buy into the bullshit, too bad, man.

[fluffhead]

Political trolls, in special those you find on the off topic forum a lot, use whataboutism a lot. They learned that from Hannity on foxnews.

I'm not sure the left leaning people that always use whataboutisms on this site watch fox news though. Also for someone who hates political trolls you seem to fan the flames quite a bit yourself.

[Tziva]

This sounds like the kind of thing that should be addressed by users within the discussion.

Mods exist to make sure discussion can happen and doesn't go off the raids. We're not the discussion police to make sure everyone is always presenting clear, logical arguments. If someone is making poor arguments, it is the job of the participants of the discussion to argue that case.

We'll be happy to review people who are being inflammatory for the sake of disrupting the thread, as well as nation bashing, but I don't see this as universally and/or inherently crossing that line.