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  1. #41
    That's on single target. On multi-target it opens up quite a bit in favor of momentum.

    However, even at that point I'm still not sure whether or not it's worth it since Unbound Chaos got nerfed. If they buff some of the demonic-favored traits that currently are garbage like Eyes of Rage/Furious Gaze, I could definitely see Demonic catching up in AoE situations as well.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Necromantia View Post
    Strife, when in your sim Momentum is less than 300 dps benefit, it doesn't worth it. And that's a sim.

    edit: in my situation that is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    Momentum is better on paper, but in reality it is a much harder rotation to pull off. Any little thing (like having to use FR to get out of fire) could completely mess it up. That 2% increase on paper is just not worth it.
    Yes, it may not be worth it for you to gain 2% on a patchwerk fight and that's fine BUT there aren't any patchwerk fights in Uldir and haven't had a single patchwerk fight in a very long time. When you start adding more adds to fights, that 2% is going to go up.

    No one is saying you need to play momentum but it is the better talent regardless if you THINK it's not worth it or if you THINK it's not better, it is, data proves it. There's no argument there. Under the assumption that you can play the talent correctly. If you can't play it correctly, you choose not to learn and that's your problem not the talent. My only point is that there is no argument that other talents are better than Momentum, because they aren't, people are just stubborn and don't like the talent and refuse to admit that it's better. I hate momentum but I'm the type of person/player that thrives for every little bit of DPS, I water at the mouth thinking about doing 300 more dps, that doesn't mean you have to and that's okay . Doing more dps is always worth it, it's just not worth it to you.

  3. #43
    Its dependant on the fights. Heavy movement fights will favor momentum as you are more in control of your damage buff and if there's frequent add spawns momentum will pull ahead far more. Both sims are 100% best scenario with perfect execution so if you lose out 5 seconds of Nemesis because of whatever reason it will fall further behind.

  4. #44
    Deleted
    I don't see an issue with that.
    It's the most challenging one in the row to play optimally.

    The majority of the player-base will perform better (without getting themself or their group/raid) killed with any of the 2 other talents.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifelol View Post
    Yes, it may not be worth it for you to gain 2% on a patchwerk fight and that's fine BUT there aren't any patchwerk fights in Uldir and haven't had a single patchwerk fight in a very long time. When you start adding more adds to fights, that 2% is going to go up.

    No one is saying you need to play momentum but it is the better talent regardless if you THINK it's not worth it or if you THINK it's not better, it is, data proves it. There's no argument there. Under the assumption that you can play the talent correctly. If you can't play it correctly, you choose not to learn and that's your problem not the talent. My only point is that there is no argument that other talents are better than Momentum, because they aren't, people are just stubborn and don't like the talent and refuse to admit that it's better. I hate momentum but I'm the type of person/player that thrives for every little bit of DPS, I water at the mouth thinking about doing 300 more dps, that doesn't mean you have to and that's okay . Doing more dps is always worth it, it's just not worth it to you.
    Well, for one, sims still arent finished yet, despite what people are saying, there are still wrong numbers, priority lists and things that don't make sense with multiple talents picked, including momentum and I would take the results with a grain of salt

    and two, theoretical 300 dps gain sounds good, but that goes poof the moment you have to use felrush for movement once or twice per bossfight or when you cant use felrush because of positional requirements, getting away with it on normal and heroic is fine, on mythic? We will see I guess.

    The one thing momentum has undoubtedly going for it is AoE, so Ill give it that

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strifelol View Post
    Yes, it may not be worth it for you to gain 2% on a patchwerk fight and that's fine BUT there aren't any patchwerk fights in Uldir and haven't had a single patchwerk fight in a very long time. When you start adding more adds to fights, that 2% is going to go up.

    No one is saying you need to play momentum but it is the better talent regardless if you THINK it's not worth it or if you THINK it's not better, it is, data proves it. There's no argument there. Under the assumption that you can play the talent correctly. If you can't play it correctly, you choose not to learn and that's your problem not the talent. My only point is that there is no argument that other talents are better than Momentum, because they aren't, people are just stubborn and don't like the talent and refuse to admit that it's better. I hate momentum but I'm the type of person/player that thrives for every little bit of DPS, I water at the mouth thinking about doing 300 more dps, that doesn't mean you have to and that's okay . Doing more dps is always worth it, it's just not worth it to you.
    Don't forget, Patchwerk fights also assumes you won't need any mobility. Look at the very first fight. GL using all you FR in order to buff your damage and then wiping your raid because you have non left to take the debuff to other side of zone... But hey, at least you did 6% more DPS before you wiped the raid, right?

    I'm sure your raid leaders will look at that instead of the part where you fucked everyone over.
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    Don't forget, Patchwerk fights also assumes you won't need any mobility. Look at the very first fight. GL using all you FR in order to buff your damage and then wiping your raid because you have non left to take the debuff to other side of zone... But hey, at least you did 6% more DPS before you wiped the raid, right?

    I'm sure your raid leaders will look at that instead of the part where you fucked everyone over.
    Oh boy, so everyone needs fel rush to not fuck up in this fight? I'm truly scared because we have 2 retri paladins in our raid. How will those two fellas on their wheelchairs progress this raid? Should we /gkick them?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Lelkowski View Post
    Oh boy, so everyone needs fel rush to not fuck up in this fight? I'm truly scared because we have 2 retri paladins in our raid. How will those two fellas on their wheelchairs progress this raid? Should we /gkick them?
    well, your retris dont have to use Steed for a dps buff...

  9. #49
    Deleted
    I rolled warrior this xpac, just to be safe, now will progress my dh alt/main(in the future).... how does Havoc look right now? We'll get to know on 5th or 12th ?

  10. #50
    The current momentum build feels absolutely amazing to play in mythics. The raw damage output is crazy even if you play it poorly. All other builds are effectively just lazier. Sure you can do just fine with a Demonic build but why not put in actual effort and try your best?
    As for raids, momentum will always be stronger. Opportunity costs of momentum are far easier to use than nemesis. Especially given that at any point where you need to AoE, momentum is far stronger.

    Think for yourselves guys, do you want to play easy mode Demonic and just cruise or do you want to try harder and push your character to its limits? Your choice.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    Well, for one, sims still arent finished yet, despite what people are saying, there are still wrong numbers, priority lists and things that don't make sense with multiple talents picked, including momentum and I would take the results with a grain of salt

    and two, theoretical 300 dps gain sounds good, but that goes poof the moment you have to use felrush for movement once or twice per bossfight or when you cant use felrush because of positional requirements, getting away with it on normal and heroic is fine, on mythic? We will see I guess.

    The one thing momentum has undoubtedly going for it is AoE, so Ill give it that
    Sims aren't finished? What is still being worked on? Last I checked priority lists were fine but maybe I overlooked something?


    Don't forget, Patchwerk fights also assumes you won't need any mobility. Look at the very first fight. GL using all you FR in order to buff your damage and then wiping your raid because you have non left to take the debuff to other side of zone... But hey, at least you did 6% more DPS before you wiped the raid, right?

    I'm sure your raid leaders will look at that instead of the part where you fucked everyone over.


    Even patchwerk sims take mobility and out of range time into account . If you can't look at timers and see that saving FR would be better than trying to maximize dps and wiping your raid for whatever reason, then you shouldn't be raiding in the first place OR you should probably stick to lfr/normal or heroic difficulties where that doesn't matter. A good raider can determine calls like that on the fly and is aware of abilities that are coming up way before hand, usually what separates a good raider from a bad one. You can argue all you want that Nemsis/Demonic is better than Momentum but that is very fight dependent(If you can't use FR for very long periods of time or at all) and most if not all fights in Uldir are Momentum friendly from what I remember from testing.
    Last edited by Strifelol; 2018-08-31 at 02:42 PM.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    and two, theoretical 300 dps gain sounds good, but that goes poof the moment you have to use felrush for movement once or twice per bossfight or when you cant use felrush because of positional requirements, getting away with it on normal and heroic is fine, on mythic? We will see I guess.

    The one thing momentum has undoubtedly going for it is AoE, so Ill give it that
    Did you do any raid testing on beta? Not a single boss in Uldir stops you from repositioning rotationally, even in the mythic tests.

    And in general there is hardly any need to use fel rush for mobility in raids, lol. Maybe if you have poor movement/preplanning, yes, but that doesn't diminish the objective strength of the talent.
    How do you think death knights do mechanics? It is very rare for anything in a raid that's properly planned for to require anything more than baseline movement speed, and demon hunters have much more than that already (double jump + glide and mastery).


    It's also beyond ridiculous to me that some posts in this thread (not yours) advocate taking Nemesis and talk about it being more practical in raids than Momentum. A talent that requires you to have perfect uptime on a boss for a full minute straight, and contributes zero damage to short-lived add spawns (outside of rare fights like high command or w/e).
    Like, everyone is talking about how Momentum supposedly makes it harder to do mechanics, when you have so much flexibility with when you're going to expend FR charges - for instance if you have to run out for a debuff, you get to zero charges, pool in advance, run out, then you can fel rush back in and immediately start your momentum window. If you have to run out when Nemesis is on the boss you plainly lose a lot of dps. So yes, even though Nemesis sims relatively close on pure single target, in actual boss fights there is a much larger gap between the two.

    Demonic is a bit better in that regard, but again it doesn't do so well with variable add spawns (like if you have a spawn whose timer isn't a discrete multiple of 30s).
    Last edited by Veiled Shadow; 2018-08-31 at 02:41 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelkowski View Post
    Oh boy, so everyone needs fel rush to not fuck up in this fight? I'm truly scared because we have 2 retri paladins in our raid. How will those two fellas on their wheelchairs progress this raid? Should we /gkick them?
    They have a Crusader and DKs have Wraith Walk, good try tho.
    "It's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble; it's what we know for sure that just ain't so." ~ Mark Twain
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  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Saverem View Post
    They have a Crusader and DKs have Wraith Walk, good try tho.
    Wraith walk is a talent. DKs have a 30% for 8s move baseline. DHs move 5-15% with current mastery. Additionally, ret/dk can only use their movement speed to get out but not back in. Meanwhile DH can use FR to return. Or save VR to leave then use FR to go in since VR no longer procs momentum.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Strifelol View Post
    Again, under the assumption that you're doing a patchwerk fight. There hasn't been a patchwerk fight for a very long time btw and there isn't a patchwerk fight in Uldir. Keep that in mind.



    9.4% is a pretty big difference imo. If you don't mind not playing the most optimal talent then it's okay to play whatever you like, anyone that says otherwise is just being an idiot.
    that is only on sim with perfect placement and timing, in a real raid environment demonic is better imo most of the time.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by McFrotton View Post
    that is only on sim with perfect placement and timing, in a real raid environment demonic is better imo most of the time.
    9,4% is a big deal though

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Cytraz View Post
    9,4% is a big deal though
    yeah but require way way more positioning and if you fuck up, the moment there is fire in someplace, you can't fel rush there, you cannot move as it please you, and sims are literral shit. wait for the first clear and first charts.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    2% dps from a single person is not going to be the deciding factor in being able to clear content.
    you clearly have 0 understanding of min/max

    2% per person in the raid def makes a difference.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by drbatman View Post
    you clearly have 0 understanding of min/max

    2% per person in the raid def makes a difference.
    Good thing I said from a single person then, isn't it? And not per person. Reading sure is hard. Regardless, you evidently aren't aware of what simulated damage means.

  20. #60
    Deleted
    Sims assume you have perfect timing on every momentum, never require it to move from a mechanic rather than for DPS gain.

    Realistically Nemesis is going to be better in raids simply because of the utility it frees up in fel rush/backflip charges. You may do 3% less DPS, but you may also actually have the movement to dodge that 1 hit ability. A dead DPS doesnt do any DPS.

    Equally, Momentum has always been a pain to use in raids except for the most basic of fluffy pillow tank and spank fights, the moment you add any movement, any kind of raid stack/spread or any soak to the mix it becomes worse.

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