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  1. #61
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    I have only played Druid so far in BfA and I find all of the specs really dull compared to even Legion due to the removal of artifacts and legendary effects. Azerite armor simply can't replace them and the raid tier bonuses. A new tier of final talents would have been nice as well for this expansion.

  2. #62
    The Patient Rascal Bob's Avatar
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    I see a lot of people commenting that blizzard couldn't keep adding abilities, this has also been blizzards argument ever since WoD started to remove stuff from our specs. It's true maybe they couldn't keep adding stuff to specs, doesn't change the fact that there was also no real reason to remove so much from certain specs. I mean I don't even touch my hunter these days, survival my favorite spec is now melee. Like what? Anyways I'll probably end up leveling soon as survival since it's the only spec with some buttons remaining.

    Like someone pointed out in MoP every talent row had a specific purpose, it being cc, movement or whatever. Now everything is pitted against each other and we can just pick the better of three evils. Either missing cc or movement or defensive's. Basically the talent tree has worsened a lot over a few expansion time, going from the large talent trees to the ones we got in MoP to what we have now.

    Now for me WoD was a disaster(I think it was for most), legion an improvement and BfA is looking not too bright. Also I have never enjoyed playing as many alts as I did in MoP, specs just feel a bit bland if I think back at it now. Azerite armor can not make up for everything that has been removed and the more I play/think about it the more strongly I feel this way. And if Blizzard had showed anything to reassure us that it was gonna get better further down the road then I would be fine, I mean I'm still playing as I've been doing for years. As long as it isn't too bad I'll enjoy myself but right now coming from legion this was quite a blow to my overall enjoyment in the game.
    Last edited by Rascal Bob; 2018-09-04 at 01:12 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by xcitng View Post
    Was saying this during the beta and now its released, my opinion hasn't changed nor do I see it getting better with the azerite system still a disaster.
    When Blizz starts tuning the numbers in a week or so people will see how bad the class tuning really is.

  4. #64
    I actually think WoD as a whole had the best class design. Sure that is when they started the pruning but they didn’t go overboard plus everyone got those perks when leveling plus the 100 talent row. Shame it was only a two tier expansion and garrisons I wonder how WoD would have been received if so much content wasn’t cut.

  5. #65
    Keeping the game simple helps new players and players who don't have as much time to play the game anymore. Blizzard have to put the complexity level where the majority of the players base can understand and perform well without addons / simulationcraft. Legion more or less required you to sim yourself (atleast for some specs) which is too much complexity for a lot of players.

  6. #66
    I play druid (Resto/Guardian main with Balance on the side), Monk (brew/wind), warlock (affliction/demo) and paladin (prot/ret). All of those feel pretty great to me. I mean, there's the new expansion growing pains with all our secondaries being reduced (especially haste), but mechanically I quite enjoy them all. I do with they'd increase the complexity of Guardian's rotation, but they've had the same rotation basically since MoP.
    “You can never get a cup of tea large enough or a book long enough to suit me.”
    – C.S. Lewis

  7. #67
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Ztranger View Post
    Keeping the game simple helps new players and players who don't have as much time to play the game anymore. Blizzard have to put the complexity level where the majority of the players base can understand and perform well without addons / simulationcraft. Legion more or less required you to sim yourself (atleast for some specs) which is too much complexity for a lot of players.
    Anyone capable of doing content that requires simming is capable of understanding more than 1-1-1-2-3-4-proc-5 gameplay.

  8. #68
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Malikath View Post
    the people who complain about the cumulative skills from prior expacs are idiots, we spend hundreds if not thousands of hours on this game each expac.
    if you're telling me you can't learn 1, maybe 2 if we were lucky, new skills over the course of a couple hours with it then how the fuck do you even function in the real world?
    Exactly. And it's okay for a class to be hard when you are over level hundred.

  9. #69
    WW getting leg sweep and paralysis nerfed along with the general GCD changes basically made me quit the class. Brewmaster feels way better than Legion though, so I will give them that. I'm making the switch over to Havoc, it's funny how just a couple of changes like adding Immo aura to Havoc and making shadowblades useless really made a huge difference in how the spec plays out. Vengeance is still a lot of fun too. Blizz did a good job of improving on the Demon Hunter's baseline.

  10. #70
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rascal Bob View Post
    So I think most of us heard the warnings during beta, testers/content creators were worried that some specs felt clunky/not as good as in legion. I kind of ignored everything, I even managed to avoid the lore or other information before the launch, and thus I have had a great time since launch and the story was pretty good (especially Alliance for me, but I play bothso please don't hate me. Bwonsamdi is probably one of my favorite additions this exp.)

    Now raiding is a few days away, we have all acquired our gear and are busy getting enough gold to buy the ridiculously priced fish and herbs of BfA.
    Currently I have a frost mage at 344 ilvl and a rogue who I just started gearing since Thursday at 326 ilvl. Both classes I played in legion and both of them I enjoyed a lot. The more I play the more I miss the legion variant.

    Mage
    While everyone was playing fire in Emerald nightmare I had gone the frost route, I loved playing around with rune of power and ray of frost for some insane burst with timewarp while still being able to talent into thermal void for that sweet extended icy-veins. I also loved the fact that you had some non rng ways of generating quite a bit of FoF procs(ebonbolt, pet freeze/jet, etc.) Together with chain reaction and some other traits I felt like I had an really enjoyable spec which performed really wel, even to my surprise at the beginning. Anyways I had loads of fun with it. (I switched to rogue just before the change to ebonbolt to proc flurry instead of FoF.) I usually switch every few raids to keep everything interesting and fun.

    Now if we compare this to BfA.
    I'm gonna say that on AoE not that much has changed, but on single target you really start to notice the difference, especially after running mythics for 3 weeks. I miss my chain reaction, ray of frost and a ice lance spam/long icy-veins combo build. Now I spend my time casting frostbolts hoping to get a flurry proc whenever I have my glacial ready to go(this can get quite frustrating when ebonbolt is on cd.) Anyways its still decent but we kind of shifted from a single target monster to a AoE boss.

    In short I still have fun on large AoE pulls but not on bosses, I don't have to think about chain reaction and for optimal dps I don't need ray of frost which is a former shell of what it was anyways. The talent setup I used in Legion required quite a bit of knowledge of the fight and wasn't just me mindlessly spamming frostbolts all the time fishing for procs. It was quite a bit more challenging, the only challenging thing I have now is remaining calm when I don't get a flurry proc after casting the 6th or so frostbolt or praying that the target lives a bit longer so my glacial spike can still land and finally add a bit of my dps on a single target fight. Like I said AoE is still quite fun although it's far from challenging. Also the chain reaction we have now isn't as good as the old one that provided a 50% max damage increase I believe vs the 30% we have now. Being able to maintain chain reaction during burst moments could make or break your dps quite a bit in Legion and now it's converted to a talent that's weaker and not worth taking because the other two outperform it.

    Rogue

    After my mage and the rework in 7.2(was it 7.2.5?) or should I say the return of the old subtlety feel I picked up my rogue again and I was glad blizzard did this since I enjoyed my rogue again in both PvP and PvE. Sub wasn't as hard as it has been in the past but it felt quite fulfilling trying to mass all your damage in that one lovely ability Death from Above. Now not only did we lose finality but we also lost DfA and it has become pvp only.

    In BfA we lose a lot of the thinking we had to do, we no longer have to keep the finality buff(when you cast a finisher the next same finisher deals increased damage) in mind which was quite a big thing since it made the fight more interesting because you had to line up your finality eviscerate buff with DfA and all your other cooldowns that needed some skill/knowledge of the fight. Again stuff I like, it was great fun and eventually after some practice not even that hard after a bit of practice as it was sometimes made out to be.
    Now I haven't played my rogue that much yet or at least not compared to my mage but I'm far more bored doing my rotation now then I was in Legion.


    Now my question kinda is, have most of you guys felt the same way after throwing away your artifact on some of your classes/specs and playing with it for a bit? Or did you maybe like the fact that they changed it up a bit, I like somewhat complexer rotations so I'm definitely biased. Or have there been specs that are still great fun and I might need to check out? I was personally thinking of maybe leveling my hunter as survival next but I'm sure I will find something new that might interest me for a bit longer.

    Now I do realize that we were thrown to death with warning threads etc during beta and just before launch but I haven't seen a thread discussing what everyone thinks after the expansion launched and everyone has had a chance to play it or maybe I'm blind and I've missed it. Anyways have a good night I'm off to bed.
    Frost mage here. Been playing mage since Nighthold. You are doing it wrong. Frost was literally 4 button spec. It was quite fun in NH due to race with icy veins duration, for me at least (been playing surrender 2 madness priest in EN, but since they have nerfed that it has been quite dull and simple.
    AoE is now different and instead of orb on CD and spam ice lance with blizzard we are now having to plan more, use couple extra spells, make sure position is right. Burst is insane.
    Single target we have 2 new spells in our rotation - comet storm and GS, which makes it better and more fun.
    We now actually have talent choices to make, which was not the case in legion, again - better and more fun, as you can do different builds and not suffer on dps.
    Chain Reaction was 30% increase + 2 relics, which were not BiS by any means and it is still viable now in m+. It does not sound that you played your frost mage to top performance in Legion, so I don't understand, why you would be worried about some of the talents being not so good now?

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by sathus View Post
    Frost mage here. Been playing mage since Nighthold. You are doing it wrong. Frost was literally 4 button spec. It was quite fun in NH due to race with icy veins duration, for me at least (been playing surrender 2 madness priest in EN, but since they have nerfed that it has been quite dull and simple.
    AoE is now different and instead of orb on CD and spam ice lance with blizzard we are now having to plan more, use couple extra spells, make sure position is right. Burst is insane.
    Single target we have 2 new spells in our rotation - comet storm and GS, which makes it better and more fun.
    We now actually have talent choices to make, which was not the case in legion, again - better and more fun, as you can do different builds and not suffer on dps.
    Chain Reaction was 30% increase + 2 relics, which were not BiS by any means and it is still viable now in m+. It does not sound that you played your frost mage to top performance in Legion, so I don't understand, why you would be worried about some of the talents being not so good now?
    Some of us mages were already playing with GS in Legion, so that's not really a new button. Comet Storm is just meteor and also was in Legion, so I'm not entirely sure I would hinge much on those two spells. Frost is Frost, it didn't really change all that much from Legion. Yeah spot here or there, but if you had it down in Legion it will be a breeze to pick up in BfA.

    Frost isn't really the issue with Mages, Fire and Arcane are imo. Arcane works but is boring as heck, it's pretty simple at this point. Fire feels like dating the dumb sister of an ex, the looks are there but it lost all of it's punch. Not to mention the amount of survivability that was lost going from Legion to BfA.

    Azerite gear isn't going to change much so people that keep wanting to put their hope into that system are living on false hope. Blizzard has already shown us what they are going to do, nerf all of the spec specific ones and bump up the generic ones so that they are easy to balance across classes and specs. You can take the class specific ones, but it's not going to be the optimal way to go.

    I have a strange feeling we are going to look back and view BfA as the meh version of Legion. They systems are mostly the same, but something about it will end up not feeling as good as Legion, assuming of course they don't make sudden changes.

  12. #72
    We lost a lot of things from Legion to BfA that made classes feel better. I'll use my prot paladin as an example:
    - a lot of secondary stats - makes him feel slow, everything takes so very long to get off CD
    - legendaries - I'm missing the shield that jumped to 2 more targets, the 2nd healing stack, the haste from the ring, using both Holy shield and the spinning hammers
    - artifacts - I'm a lot squishier, I miss the absorb and the reduced time on some CDs, I miss the little AoE that happened around my shield hitting
    - my wings are on GCD so I can't readily use them for a fast heal to full; heal is also on 13 seconds with 18% haste and talent, which feels 4 times as long due to missing the 2nd stack from legendary as well
    - aggro was nerfed so I feel the need to gear for dps, but I don't want to feel squishy so I'm currently geared for defense which really isn't my style

    I'm sure some of these things will smooth out with more gear, but for now it seems we lost so much compared to other expansion transition. It also doesn't feel like we gained anything in turn, so it just feels bad. I mean we have the Azerite traits that are new but since they're random they feel a bit like a hassle. Maybe it's just me.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
    Funny you're talking about frost mage, as a fire mage main i can assure you the changes are even worse.
    ...
    So we basically just lost a ton of shit and gained NOTHING in return. Overall this just ends up meaning we have significantly slower and less satisfying gameplay. I really don't understand why blizzard made so many gameplay changes in BFA that literally no one was asking for.
    Another Fire main here (hey, it's the only mage spec I like). It always feels like fire is the ugly stepchild of the Mage class design team. We get hit with the nerf hammer each time we might make it close to on par with their darling Frost, and even if we are trailing horribly behind the rest, thy love to hit us with some random nerfs just for kicks.

    Worst thing is indeed how they massacred the fluidity and the nature of our spec this time round. ToV, Nighthold and ToS we had poor dps numbers, but at least our mechanics were fun.

    This time around:
    Designer 1: 'Hey guys, look at this. Some suckers are still clinging on to Fire. Shouldn't they know by now we don't let them play it until the very last raid, maybe, if we are feeling generous that is?
    Designer 2: Remember EN?
    Designer 3: Epic mistake there, I'll admit. We probably had a 'Brainfreeze'! <laughs>
    Designer 1: Lol!! In all seriousness though. How do we get the diehards to stop? We already tried making leveling as Fire a nightmare by making them squishy while putting their damage output behind Warmode, but that just stopped Alliance Fire.
    Designer 3: Yeah, we need to bash some skulls on that team. They should have warned us Fire damage would still be accessible to 66% of the players. Too late now though.
    Designer 1: So obviously those that still 'Burn' <chuckle> are immune to damage nerfs. But what else can we do?
    Designer 2: Well, rather than just having their numbers hit the floor, why don't we mess up their game? Remove their free base crit from Criticall Mass? I say. Make it something like 'Now we're Cooking': 'Your combustion can be used as a basic campfire allowing nearby players to cook (range 10y)'?
    <high fives and bro-fists all round>
    Designer 3: EPIC! Too obvious though. even though Ion hates Fire as much as we do, not even he will get this to pass.
    Designer 1: I've got a cunning plan. Instead of removing their crit, why don't we take away their Crit usability? They rely on converting their crit hits heating-up into hot-streaks, right? So what if we decimated their converters? We could even troll them, like instead on just eliminating them outright, have them choose their own doom by having Flame-On and Phoenix flames ON THE SAME TALENT ROW!! <maniacal laughter>
    Designer 2: OMG, that's genius dude! So instead of being these high energy reactive mobile buggers, they can now be glass turrets casting eon long Fireballs that they can't even convert half the time less they want to ruin their combustion. So their crit becomes meaningless, less they want to be topped by tanks and healers on the DPS meter!
    <flushed faces and moans all around the table>
    Designer 3: Euh ...
    Designer 1: Yeah, yeah, I know. We all have to go change our underwear. Just give us a minute before you open that door.
    Last edited by HuxNeva; 2018-09-04 at 06:46 AM.

  14. #74
    Pandaren Monk Redroniksre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucrece View Post
    Just like with tier sets. That we'd have more variety because they weren't restrained by class tiers.

    Now look at Uldir. A single set for four armor classes. All classes using that armor class look like the same shit.

    Less job for Blizzard while you continue to pay them their sub.
    As much as i agree with lackluster Azerite and the class balance, there are more armor sets in the game now than in Legion.
    Questing/dungeon has 16 compared to Legions 8
    Raids/Warfront/PvP has 32 compared to Legions 24

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by salvadorbard View Post
    This is how I feel tbh. I currently have 3 120s, 3 characters at 118, and 2 at 112. That's unheard of for me this early in an expansion but everything hits the same wall pretty much when legendaries stop working and the pruned classes really start to get slow as fuck.
    I'm in the same situation. Got 2 120s and leveling a couple to 120 to see which ones i like the most. Because of this I lose a lot of rep and gold.

  16. #76
    Deleted
    The fun part is that mage and rogue are the least fucked class imo .... My warlock feel so meh, so i decided to main shadow priest ... hahahahah i'm so fucked.

    And i am like others, on my 4th chars to 120 because i can't find one that actually feel good to play.
    Last edited by mmoc99a517f13b; 2018-09-04 at 07:05 AM.

  17. #77
    Story is good but with 3 120s 2 115s 3 111s and the rest feeling unplayable I have yet to decide on a class that I would actually want to spend hours in a raid with. May need to sit this one out.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Azerite bonuses can also be the bonuses you had on tier sets and legendaries. It's up to the devs to make them better. So, yes, the structure for it to get better is already in place and more systems may be introduced as the crucible did.
    Baseline, the classes are better. If you compare them without artifact weapon and legendaries, legion was worse. You are comparing Legion with everything unlocked to pre-raid BfA. It's just not the same.
    What is there to unlock? There is nothing, that's the point. Azerite is exactly what Tier-bonuses have been, nothing else. Some change gameplay, most don't and are barely noticeable. Many legendaries actually changed the way you played (sure there were some "stat stick" legendaries but if I just remember the ones I had on my Warlock the playstyle changed).

    I mean the devs created all the Azerite traits up to now (including first raid tier of BfA) and 4/5 are boring or flat out bad. Why should it get better? Granted, artifact weapons got better with the Concordance stuff and the new golden traits but the Crucible was horrible. I just don't see any interest on Blizzard's side to make Azerite traits better when they made the biggest chunk of them so bad.

    Baseline the classes are more pruned and more boring, agreed. "Better"? Not really. It's enough to compare Legion (+artifact weapon) to BfA (+necklace) to see how Legion was far superior to what we have now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ztranger View Post
    So how do you suggest they keep everything from every expansion and only add to it without getting hundreds of buttons?
    Again, you realize they took away 4 things and added just 1? That makes -3 layers of class development in BfA. Even if they've added a new talent row (which should have happened) there are still 2 "systems" of class development less in BfA. And we haven't gotten a new talent row. And on top of removing legendaries, t-bonuses, artifact skill(s) and trait(s) they pruned classes even more or turned baseline skills into talents.

    So how do I suggest they keep everything? Develop your game not only from expansion to expansion, create a long-term vision for it.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Sergio View Post
    Funny you're talking about frost mage, as a fire mage main i can assure you the changes are even worse.

    What we lost from the end of legion:
    Phoenix flames no longer baseline, just shoved into the talent tree making us choose between it and our best talent, flame on.
    Pruned version of leggo belt effect now competing with firestarter
    Pruned version of leggo bracer effect competing with kindling/meteor
    Combustion back down to 10 seconds
    No decreased cd on phoenix flames from ignite
    Shimmer cd increased
    I'm also sad we don't have anything available that matches the effect of the legendary helm, as it was really fun to use. Paradoxically, alextrazas fury is still a talent competing with flame on and PF, even though it is quite literally worthless without the leg helm effect.

    What we gained:
    Azerite traits, which as of yet change gameplay ~0%

    So we basically just lost a ton of shit and gained NOTHING in return. Overall this just ends up meaning we have significantly slower and less satisfying gameplay. I really don't understand why blizzard made so many gameplay changes in BFA that literally no one was asking for.
    i remember writing a bug report on beta about the alextrazas fury talent being worthless once you ding 116. I guess they dont read those :<
    What bothers me the most is that the devs dont seem to realize that a baseline ability going to talents is pretty much a lost talent.
    We can only pick 1 talent in each row so regardless how we pick 2 out of every 3 talents are talents that are effectivly gone from the class. :<

  20. #80
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    Recolors dont count.

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