I will admit that I now believe beta testers had it right. (class mechanics)

[Deleted]

The worst part is they'll probably add a couple of Boring Shores as patch content, gloss over the substantive issues and call it the most successful expansion to date.

Profit = success in business.

Vote with your wallets if you are unhappy. That's the only way anything will change.

[kalaratic]

[Louz]

"Maybe if I post this one more time, it will become truth!"

Sorry to break it to you, friend, but you're being delusional.

[styil]

This visual sums it up perfectly.

[Malikath]

pretty much, the fact they've taken away class baseline skills only to reintroduce them as talents is pathetic.
anyone defending this is a full-blown sycophantic apologist.

[Alkizon]

kalaratic

*giggled* didn't see this, thanks. It's correct more than enough

--- Edit ---
Since specs are literally classes now, then for been "perfect" picture it's also worth reflecting that abilities (same as talents=perks) are mutually exclusive, which means that its filling almost 3 times narrower in fact... but nothing suitable comes to me now, I mean - to add here.

kamuimac
and ? 99% of playerbase dont play like this.

If it's about "current playerbase" then don't know, it could be, may be. But I couldn't name any of my friends whom I could include in these 99% back then, if to make discount on "tolerance", so let it be 50%, but in fact there were not so many as you think. Yes, not everyone did it well, but they made attempts to understand, mash the brain at least. We aren't even talking about this, but about whole system (classes(mechanics)+talents+stats/characteristics+tuning=RPG), it was much less complicated before! easier to analyze and understand than now. Naturally, yes, you don't need to understand it to play now, but if you suddenly will want, it'll probably take more time... and for what? Most of dependencies and information are not even tied to your character, but lying around somewhere in the mud (PvP talents, Azerite armor, etc.) tightly adhered to it and not accessible to you. Therefore, as one of the most lazy, but curious people, I would gladly change current system to old one at any time.

Oh now I understand (after all I wrote here), why my new friends laughed at my perplexity in questions about characteristics at first. I was just trying to unnecessarily complicate the system, which in turn would entail crossing and breaking of dependencies, and as a result, subsequently to almost guaranteed errors... Well, did reach something myself at least

Ztranger
Can't just continue to add class complexity with every expansion, or we will end up with hundreds of talents and need hundreds of buttons to play. Same with systems, think glyphs + set bonuses + legendaries + reforging + BFA trait gear (just adding systems every expansions, never remove anything).

All because they wrongly organized (and continue) distributing levels (this is tail of previous mistakes, they already faced this in Cata). Everything could be done easier and they won't have to suffer from overflow. Not infinitely of course, but process would take much longer. But this applies to many problems, even like phasing type (quests organization) and CRZ (server organization), since they are already part of progress and process in certain expansions, and to exclude them they'll need to go back and think about more rational substitution, but this what they don't want to, so they aren't going to solve this issue, just let them be until it become game-breaking.

The same mistake they made when they introduced new models into the game. Since they didn't become adequate replacement for old (they completely different), they had to organize it at least through customization system (which would be more adequate and fairer), but they didn't, which resulted in game abandonment for certain group of subscribers... like myself (I'd endure many different changes in game organization, but not this one, no way)

[Vaelorian]

Guys guys guys!!!... Relax. It is just retail, Blizzard will change it. This is not the final product.

[Wildberry]

"Maybe if I post this one more time, it will become truth!"

Sorry to break it to you, friend, but you're being delusional.

In what way is that not true? Classes, as they are right now, are incomplete shells, and take (boring) band-aids like Artifacts, Azerite armor, etc. to make them feel "complete."

[Akka]

So I think most of us heard the warnings during beta, testers/content creators were worried that some specs felt clunky/not as good as in legion.

Considering how shitty the gameplay was in Legion, "not as good" seems a very generous way to speak about it, and if it's even worse now, just wow.

[kamuimac]

Of course classes are going to feel clunky after legion.

Perfect example is the example preacher makes with fire mage.

All the little things that a fire mage had, heal with blink, scorch belt, etc etc changes game play and that was interesting and made you think differently about how you played in different situations.

Every class has examples where this happened where traits and abilities changed the game play, from what seemed very small had a huge daily impact on how you played.

Now we have gone back to a system where classes are very barebones, this doesnt mean it will stay like that, it gives blizzard a blank slate to improve the classes to fit the BFA model with Azewwrite armor and future systems they may impliment. One system that springs to mind from legion was the Netherlight Crucible, whos to say there is not something in the pipeline coming in BFA that will change class game play significantly. Whos to know really.

Personally whinging about it right now 3 weeks into the xpac is kind of pointless. The xpac has yet to evolve and we have Blizzcon right around the corner where we will see what Blizzard has in store for us regarding the xpac and class development.

and ? 99% of playerbase dont play like this .

for casual people game feels much better now that they dont have to manage so much stuff.

i wont lie i really really like BfA class adaptations after leveling up couple of them . they feel much smoother and generaly much more fun to play .

i really enjoy gameplay being slower too - gives me much more time to focus on encounters and mechanics

finally wow start to feel like mmorpg not like action rpg like it felt in last couple of years - the change they did to gcd and haste were perfect.

[Ztranger]

Can't just continue to add class complexity with every expansion, or we will end up with hundreds of talents and need hundreds of buttons to play. Same with systems, think glyphs + set bonuses + legendaries + reforging + BFA trait gear (just adding systems every expansions, never remove anything). If you are unhappy with how your class play, test some other class. Class design do change alot (and I agree that it doesn't always end up in a spot where I personally like it) but thats when I switch spec (which is much easier this expansion) and play something else.

[Deleted]

FFXIV Class design in Stormblood

[Sorshen]

They had the perfect chance to add another row of talents and change it to [15 / 30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90 / 105 / 120] and not have the 3 pvp talents bullshit.

And of course, they squandered it and then added 3 more obscenely unbalanced trinket slots, going against their own design philosophy.

[styil]

I currently play both affliction and destruction as warlock, I am at item level 308, so far so good.

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I wonder if it's going to be figured out if I don't comment about anything I quoted here.

I doubt it.

[Nyel]

There are maybe 3 or 4 specs that feel and play better without artifact (two of them being the complete overhauls). The rest is just worse because it's the watered down Legion specs we're all playing.

- - - Updated - - -

I won't say BfA is better, but it can get better.

It cannot get better. How? There are no tools for this. No legendaries, no new talents, no set bonuses, nothing. There's just Azerite to cover all of that and it already failed. So, how should it get better?

- - - Updated - - -

Can't just continue to add class complexity with every expansion, or we will end up with hundreds of talents and need hundreds of buttons to play. Same with systems, think glyphs + set bonuses + legendaries + reforging + BFA trait gear...

I fail to see how

Class - 4 (artifact skill, artifact traits, set bonuses, legendaries) + 1 (Azerite) is "more complex" or justifies the heavy pruning Blizzard did in BfA. We have 3 layers of character development less in BfA than we had in Legion PLUS a lot of pruned class abilities and talents.

[nyc81991]

Blizzard should have at least made Artifact abilities baseline (They basically were in Legion) and kept Golden traits. Preferably everything that artifact weapons added should have been made baseline though.

[Gothic Knight]

Its perfectly sums up class design changes since Legion. Thanks.

[Louz]

In what way is that not true? Classes, as they are right now, are incomplete shells, and take (boring) band-aids like Artifacts, Azerite armor, etc. to make them feel "complete."

Cause the author conveniently forgot how mandatory not only talents and glyphs were, but also tier sets up to the point that you had to use them in pvp too in order to make the class work, like ret pally during dragon soul patch. Sometimes even a trinket was a gamechanger.

Not like my post will change anything about what people like you think, your mind is set on the past and how glorious it was... well, sucks for you ;^)

[Mafic]

FFXIV Class design in Stormblood

I haven't played FFXIV in ages but man it feels like I am going to try as the jobs in that game are fantastic when it comes to carving unique identity.

[Wildberry]

Cause the author conveniently forgot how mandatory not only talents and glyphs were,

Glyphs & Talents were honestly nowhere near as bad as modern talents are for completing classes (ie, "Carnage" & Early Massacre).

but also tier sets up to the point that you had to use them in pvp too in order to make the class work,

It happened here and there, it wasn't the norm, don't pretend like it was.

like ret pally during dragon soul patch.

The image said MoP, you goof.

Not like my post will change anything about what people like you think

Considering how poor and disjointed from reality your argument was? Yeah, probably not.

your mind is set on the past and how glorious it was... well, sucks for you ;^)

The past was great, but hey it's hard having taste. Tell me, if/when they manage to lose half of their subscribers (in under a year) for a second time are you still going to be defending them?