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  1. #1

    Arena ruined PvP

    Arenas ruined PvP. It's an unpopular opinion and I can almost feel the rage boiling, but let me explain:

    When you think about RPG battles, what do you imagine? Most likely something like WSG, AB or AV -- A battleground. With objectives. Not just a deathmatch in a small room full of pillars. Now, deathmatch has it's time and it's place, and I'm not here to say it should completely disappear. However, I do think ranked WoW PvP -- and arenas -- needs to evolve with the times.

    The problems that come from PvP being reduced to a glorified deathmatch are numerous -- the neverending 'melee vs ranged' debate that in my opinion shouldn't even be a debate. Melee is meant to win in a straight up 1v1 -always- against a ranged due to ranged role in any rpg being a backline high-burst damage character; 2nd problem is this endless arms race of cc / mobility / damage. Hp bloating. Various (failed) resilience experiments to offset the former. Etc., etc. -- All that stems from inherently broken 'deathmatch' arena system that shouldn't have been a benchmark for balance in a game like WoW in the first place.

    How can we fix it? Well; For example, they could ape GW2 and bring back a 5v5 bracket with smaller maps that have 3 control points. It'll be a smaller scale tactical engagement with mandatory rotations and generally more objective focused gameplay. Or hell it could even be a 3v3 with 2 points, where you respawn if you die but the time to control points is much shorter than in BGs (think need 200 points to win instead of 1500).

    It'd make for a much more pleasant niche than RBGs (when I quit a few months back I didn't have 2 people to PvP with, let alone 9...), and it'll be much more e-sports friendly than -- and let's be honest here -- dead on arrival concept of arenas as they are now.

  2. #2
    arenas were awesome when the classes had depth, before the d3 devs got their hands on them and ruined the masterpieces they had inherited
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  3. #3
    Legendary! Schattenlied's Avatar
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    I agree, sort of... The butchering of the classes didn't start until cataclysm... Arenas didn't mess with the class balance too much until then, which if I recall correctly is when they started focusing exclusively on 3v3 for PvP balance.

    I think PvP balance would work best if it were balanced around either 1v1 or 10v10+... 3v3 is an akward place to focus balance, when the vast majority of PvP in this game takes place in Battlegrounds (10v10+) or out in the world (usually 1v1).
    Last edited by Schattenlied; 2017-03-27 at 01:50 AM.
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  4. #4
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    arenas were awesome when the classes had depth, before the d3 devs got their hands on them and ruined the masterpieces they had inherited
    Because Legion legendary items and introduction of mythic+ obviously ruined PvP. Yawn.

  5. #5
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    arenas were awesome when the classes had depth, before the d3 devs got their hands on them and ruined the masterpieces they had inherited
    because pressing shadowbolt and critting somone to bring them from 70% to 0% was a masterpiece

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    because pressing shadowbolt and critting somone to bring them from 70% to 0% was a masterpiece
    wow you're so obsessed with damage you sound like one of those pve windowlickers "muh rotations"
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstrike View Post
    The problems that come from PvP being reduced to a glorified deathmatch are numerous -- the neverending 'melee vs ranged' debate that in my opinion shouldn't even be a debate. Melee is meant to win in a straight up 1v1 -always- against a ranged due to ranged role in any rpg being a backline high-burst damage character
    The idea that a melee should always win in a 1v1 means about as much as a pile of horse manure when provided in the context of "but..but..but..traditional RPG's!" MMO's are not traditional RPG's. In a traditional RPG casters tend to obliterate melee before they can close the gap and melee do not have instant teleports to get in people's faces, easy to apply eternal snares to casters can't get out of range, and stealth is not invisibility in a traditional RPG. There's so much that doesn't translate from one style of game to another that it's not remotely comparable.

  8. #8
    Banned FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    wow you're so obsessed with damage you sound like one of those pve windowlickers "muh rotations"
    what?
    i dont... what?

  9. #9
    Hello! And welcome to 2007!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by niil945 View Post
    The idea that a melee should always win in a 1v1 means about as much as a pile of horse manure when provided in the context of "but..but..but..traditional RPG's!" MMO's are not traditional RPG's. In a traditional RPG casters tend to obliterate melee before they can close the gap and melee do not have instant teleports to get in people's faces, easy to apply eternal snares to casters can't get out of range, and stealth is not invisibility in a traditional RPG. There's so much that doesn't translate from one style of game to another that it's not remotely comparable.
    Yeah it's a complicated problem; As I wrote past that though, I do believe the arena format is what caused this over-abundance of CC and mobility that just continued to grow over the years, culminating to absurdity in MOP. They toned some of it down but not enough. And I do agree, WoW is very far from a classic RPG. But I do think that it could still reverse course with devs that gave a hoot.

    Admit it, even from a wizard point of view playing around your weaknesses (low hp / low armor) but having the ability to kill someone with 2-4 well-placed spells is vastly more satisfying than the game of 'run around spamming all the buttons until a healer f'cks up' we have now.
    Last edited by Saberstrike; 2017-03-27 at 03:18 AM.

  11. #11
    Alterac Valley is the very thing you describe Arenas as.
    Players are what ruin battlegrounds as far as lack of objective chasing goes, because they view the scoreboard and humping damage meters as more important than actually winning.
    Because that winning may involve doing things which don't favour their simplistic measures of superiority.

    "I got more kills than you" - yes, but you did it by ganking in the middle while we lost our flag and the game.
    "But so what, I still got more than you."

    Try asking in a random battleground when you want people to actually participate and not screw around.
    That will speak volumes about the real issues.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2017-03-27 at 03:19 AM.
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    Your forgot to include the part where we blame casuals for everything because blizzard is catering to casuals when casuals got jack squat for new content the entire expansion, like new dungeons and scenarios.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    Try asking in a random battleground when you want people to actually participate and not screw around.
    That will speak volumes about the real issues.
    That's a big part of why smaller-scale format (3v3 / 5v5) will work much better for organized objective-based PvP. You could bring people interested in playing objectives, without also having to carry 5-35 other people you had the misfortune of getting queued with.

    I feel it's why MOBAs / overwatch work so well.

    Sounds like you want to play a MOBA.
    It's more that I want WoW PvP to feel less like it's stuck in 2007. I do play mobas. I did not play WoW for a while now. I would like to play WoW again but right now as a PvPer it's such a chore I just cannot be arsed. ;/ -- mainly because I can't ever find enough people to play with, leading me to believe I'm not alone in thinking the whole thing just needs a major overhaul.
    Last edited by Saberstrike; 2017-03-27 at 03:27 AM.

  13. #13
    Pandaren Monk Rusken's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    "I got more kills than you" - yes, but you did it by ganking in the middle while we lost our flag and the game.
    "But so what, I still got more than you."

    Try asking in a random battleground when you want people to actually participate and not screw around.
    That will speak volumes about the real issues.
    Random Battlegrounds are the best and now only place to screw around with PvP since dueling outside SW/Org is dead and everywhere else incorporates corpse runs and rez timers. Some people don't find BG objectives to be very fun, and thus won't actively pursue them. They really don't have anywhere reliable to go to PvP just for the sake of PvPing. Also with Legion's BG reward system being so RNG, and PvP gear being irrelevant, there's not a huge incentive to win random BGs these days.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by HavelTheRock View Post
    Random Battlegrounds are the best and now only place to screw around with PvP since dueling outside SW/Org is dead and everywhere else incorporates corpse runs and rez timers. Some people don't find BG objectives to be very fun, and thus won't actively pursue them. They really don't have anywhere reliable to go to PvP just for the sake of PvPing. Also with Legion's BG reward system being so RNG, and PvP gear being irrelevant, there's not a huge incentive to win random BGs these days.
    That's a big part of the problem, as well. I like winning games even if I don't get much out of it beyond some gold for an item I get to sell. Though I also do understand your point of view, with the templates translating to 'we wont ever balance wpvp again' and stormwind duel-area turning into dick-measuring contest between 'who has more broken legendaries'... eugh. Just thinking about it is making me frown.

  15. #15
    Strongly Agree.

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Arena fucked pvp, because its mentality of "dont get killed in burst", whereas battlegrounds require people to kill each other constantly.

    It creates stalemates that are often decided who managed to cap flag first.

  17. #17
    Whoah this wasn't necro from 2007. I clicked this thread just to check it.

  18. #18
    Arenas in 2007 and arenas circa cata (and onwards) are two different beasts; TBC arenas could've worked if they just toned down the worst offenders (resto druids, sl/sl locks, mace spec, etc.), instead of making every healer into a resto druid and every dps into a oneshotting arms warrior in cata+.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord Cuppy's Avatar
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    Too much FoTM and burst for average joe, marginal players who really have skill can compete with any class.
    My PvP is dirty casual randombg, not sure how arena destroyed that in any means, especially now when there's no R1 gladiators oneshotting you with their 700ilvl higher gear.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstrike View Post
    Arenas in 2007 and arenas circa cata (and onwards) are two different beasts; TBC arenas could've worked if they just toned down the worst offenders (resto druids, sl/sl locks, mace spec, etc.), instead of making every healer into a resto druid and every dps into a oneshotting arms warrior in cata+.
    While I agree with SL/SL Locks, I honestly disagree with the Resto druids part.

    While Restoration Druids were the top healer in 2v2, they were below priests everywhere else. They were average at best in 3v3 and crap in 5v5 and Resto druids honestly sucked Solo. To top it off, the resto druids typically worked best in 2v2 when paired with other classes that were strong in 3s and 5s. By comparison, Priests were decent in 2's and bested Resto druids in 3's and 5's while also being a force to recon with solo.

    Restoration druids got the hate entirely because of 2's.

    And personally as a FERAL druid, I got cut down repeatedly due to Arena where they kept giving out token nerfs to druids to placate the "Nerf Resto" crowd that really didn't touch Resto much but hurt Balance and Feral hard.

    I personally hated arena and all the changes they made to it. It was alright at the beginning when you didn't have a rating requirement to get the stuff so people could get the stuff and do what they really wanted, but when the rating requirement hit, it killed it a lot.

    I personally, loved PvP back in TBC, loved world PvP, loved city raids, loved Battlegrounds, loved Duels, but I hated playing in the sandbox that is known as arena, even winning, it just wasn't fun with me. Then watching them trying to rebalance classes selectively where they claimed they didn't balance around 2's but then proceeded to cut feral spec to placate over resto spec specifically because of 2's. Sucked.

    Especially watching the worst offenders getting off scott free. Had Warriors who dominated all 3 brackets and one of the main ones carrying resto druids in 2's while being among the top DPS and Tank in PvE and great in battlegrounds but not really hit, had priests that made resto druids look bad by comparison everywhere outside of 2's, not really touched.

    WotLK, I quite because of that train wreck though as did all my real life friends, I hated how they destroyed feral PvP that expansion and turned us into some bastardized resto/feral or rogue-lite setup where we were DPS racing for healing procs and ignored bear form (Half our spec). And didn't like the whole "I would have killed you in 4 seconds if you hadn't killed me in 3" that it had become.

    Edit: One thing I hated about Resto druids during that expansion that they NEVER fixed. Allowing them to hibernate feral druids. So hated that. Hibernate x3>Root x3> Cyclone x3> 2 seconds of Freedom> Repeat while timing Wraths between them and they could OOM you if you actually tried to juke them shifting because of mana costs.
    Last edited by Fugus; 2017-03-27 at 12:24 PM.
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