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  1. #1
    Deleted

    No buffs for Unholy or Frost Incoming

    First set of tuning has been outlined for next week

    https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...-september-11/

    And quite amazingly nothing for either DK DPS spec. unholy could well be bottom after this

  2. #2
    Why would they need any changes? Both specs are pretty solidly mid table overall with Unholy being a bit towards the lower end of mid-table and Frost a bit towards the upper end of it. Frost also seems to be the strongest spec (by a solid margin) for Heroic G'huun with Unholy in 4th and, since both Affliction and BM are both getting nerfed, it is quite possible that the two strongest specs on the last boss of the raid tier will both be DK specs (unless the encounter changes sufficiently in Mythic that the heroic parses are not a good guide).

    Balancing classes isn't about making your class the strongest, it is about making all specs average and right now pretty average sums up DKs.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Order66 View Post
    First set of tuning has been outlined for next week

    https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...-september-11/

    And quite amazingly nothing for either DK DPS spec. unholy could well be bottom after this
    someone has to be the bottom, if you dps at 10k and the top dps is 13k over the course of a fight there is literally no issue. stop being a little bitch

    INFRACTION
    Last edited by Hugh Wattmate; 2018-09-08 at 03:31 PM. Reason: INFRACTION

  4. #4
    Deleted
    While they seem okish regarding pure DPS ( even though a simcraft based view on this is stupid ), both specs are awful.
    They need a change in talents, a change in how the spells work ( Sindragosa for frost & army of the dead for unholy ), a change in the number of available spells ( and all the classes need that, ASAP).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    someone has to be the bottom, if you dps at 10k and the top dps is 13k over the course of a fight there is literally no issue. stop being a little bitch
    First of all, I reported you for your immature raging. As far as your example is concerned, that is a difference of 30%, which absolutely is an issue.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    someone has to be the bottom, if you dps at 10k and the top dps is 13k over the course of a fight there is literally no issue. stop being a little bitch
    Lmao 30% difference isnt an issue how to math?

  7. #7
    Keep it civil please guys
    - Death Knight/Demon Hunter/Monk Moderator -

  8. #8
    PvE there relatively fine, PvP they need there Legion pvp tuning percentages looked at.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
    Frost also seems to be the strongest spec (by a solid margin) for Heroic G'huun with Unholy in 4th and, since both Affliction and BM are both getting nerfed, it is quite possible that the two strongest specs on the last boss of the raid tier will both be DK specs (unless the encounter changes sufficiently in Mythic that the heroic parses are not a good guide).
    Instead of blindly looking at logs, think for a second why unholy and frost could be higher than some other melees that normally are much stronger. That's right, they don't have the mobility to get assigned for orb duty which means they only sit on boss while other classes lose a lot of DPS. Also unholy's damage on G'huun is mostly padding in P1, UH is near the bottom if you filter only boss damage.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    Instead of blindly looking at logs, think for a second why unholy and frost could be higher than some other melees that normally are much stronger. That's right, they don't have the mobility to get assigned for orb duty which means they only sit on boss while other classes lose a lot of DPS. Also unholy's damage on G'huun is mostly padding in P1, UH is near the bottom if you filter only boss damage.
    If you look just at damage to bosses on Heroic G'huun, Unholy is not near the bottom, it is literally slap bang in the middle of the DPS specs. Even if you want to dismiss the G'huun fight entirely as somehow irrelevant then Unholy and Frost are still mid-table or better on overall DPS. Unholy drops into the bottom half of the rankings (by a spot or two) only if you exclude all add damage over the entire raid and look only at damage to bosses.

    Unholy DPS at the moment is perfectly average, Frost is slightly above average. If you actually want class balance (as opposed to just wanting your own preferred class to be OP) then this is what people should be asking for. If you want DK to be overpowered then fine but just say so, it's fun and at times when that was the case I have enjoyed it too, but right now the class is average and like any average class should expect neither buffs or nerfs.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulika View Post
    If you look just at damage to bosses on Heroic G'huun, Unholy is not near the bottom, it is literally slap bang in the middle of the DPS specs. Even if you want to dismiss the G'huun fight entirely as somehow irrelevant then Unholy and Frost are still mid-table or better on overall DPS. Unholy drops into the bottom half of the rankings (by a spot or two) only if you exclude all add damage over the entire raid and look only at damage to bosses.

    Unholy DPS at the moment is perfectly average, Frost is slightly above average. If you actually want class balance (as opposed to just wanting your own preferred class to be OP) then this is what people should be asking for. If you want DK to be overpowered then fine but just say so, it's fun and at times when that was the case I have enjoyed it too, but right now the class is average and like any average class should expect neither buffs or nerfs.
    Yeah because god forbid DKs being great at AOE and good at ST like Dhs with their ridiculous aoe without any effort, and to a less extent Warriors and rogues. Instead let us be good at aoe and mediocre at ST so we can be an average class cause the average is always invited to groups and shit.
    Last edited by Kendros; 2018-09-10 at 03:09 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kendros View Post
    Yeah because god forbid DKs being great at AOE and good at ST like Dhs with their ridiculous aoe without any effort, and to a less extent Warriors and rogues. Instead let us be good at aoe and mediocre at ST so we can be an average class cause the average is always invited to groups and shit.
    I'd much rather steal some of the DH mobility than their aoe

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Order66 View Post
    First set of tuning has been outlined for next week

    https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...-september-11/

    And quite amazingly nothing for either DK DPS spec. unholy could well be bottom after this
    What are you basing that on? Logs show that both Frost and Unholy are doing great. Don’t fix it if it aint broken.

  14. #14
    When it comes to PvP they definitely need buffs. I checked two days ago and there were 2 DKs on the entire EU 2s ladder and both were on the last page. It's ridiculous.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    What are you basing that on? Logs show that both Frost and Unholy are doing great. Don’t fix it if it aint broken.
    Maybe you should stop playing rogue and reroll a DK if they're so amazing.


    Here's another post by you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    But there was no need to nerf the ST is all I'm saying. Fair enough that they nerf the AOE, that is totally sensible, but the ST was just fine.

    If they nerf Outlaw ST, then they should also nerf Havoc, WW, Survival, Ret and Arms ST. Because they are on par with Outlaw. Just look at logs from Fetid Devourer https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st...s/19#boss=2128. Outlaw is after the nerf going to be between Feral and Frost DK on single target, and there was no need for that change.
    You think the rogue nerfs are unneeded and refer to being between feral and frost in ST as some kind of a terrible fate. Then you come on dk forums and tell how great both the specs are when they're the two weakest melee specs overall - very bad mobility, mediocre defensives and grip being their only raid utility yet they have no damage to compensate for their other weaknesses.

    Rogues already have two amazing ST specs and outlaw is supposed to be the spec with strong AoE but it also happens to be one of the strongest in ST. Fetid devourer is a bad example for ST performance because classes with stronger CDs can stack more damage in the vulnerability phase.

    Dps DKs have two specs, unholy which has weak ST and average cleave damage and frost which has average ST and average cleave. Rogues have assassination with strong single and strong cleave, outlaw with strong ST and strong cleave and sub with strong ST which gets a huge boost from multiple targets. Rogues also have great mobility and defensives. How do you call this balanced?
    Last edited by goriander; 2018-09-10 at 10:09 AM.

  16. #16
    That's quite sad, but I'm afraid that that's not a huge issue for Blizz, since they explicitly said they are not balancing 2s.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    Maybe you should stop playing rogue and reroll a DK if they're so amazing.


    Here's another post by you:


    You think the rogue nerfs are unneeded and refer to being between feral and frost in ST as some kind of a terrible fate. Then you come on dk forums and tell how great both the specs are when they're the two weakest melee specs overall - very bad mobility, mediocre defensives and grip being their only raid utility yet they have no damage to compensate for their other weaknesses.

    Rogues already have two amazing ST specs and outlaw is supposed to be the spec with strong AoE but it also happens to be one of the strongest in ST. Fetid devourer is a bad example for ST performance because classes with stronger CDs can stack more damage in the vulnerability phase.

    Dps DKs have two specs, unholy which has weak ST and average cleave damage and frost which has average ST and average cleave. Rogues have assassination with strong single and strong cleave, outlaw with strong ST and strong cleave and sub with strong ST which gets a huge boost from multiple targets. Rogues also have great mobility and defensives. How do you call this balanced?
    You are taking things out of context and missing the point. I’m addressing how Blizzard use their time and neither Rogues or DKs should be their priority right now when other classes are broken.

    My point is that as long as everyone is doing fine there is no need to use resources on changes. Outlaw ST is fine right now so why should Blizzard employees use time on changing it. Unholy and Frost are fine right now so why should Blizzard employees use time on changing it. There will never be perfect balance.

    I mained DK for whole Legion and I never complained about them being in the middle of the pack. I rerolled to Rogue to try something new and I don’t really care about my class being on the top of the logs. But I question when Blizzard use ressources on unnecessary changes. If Rogues had been worse from the start the I would be fine with it. But why are they using time and money on fixing content which is fine (e.g outlaw ST)

    I’m not saying that being between Frost Dk and Feral is a bad thing, I’m just saying it’s an unnecessary change.
    Last edited by Kaver; 2018-09-10 at 10:36 AM.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    I am always interested in seeing how people justify why specs are good bad etc... to be fair im loving unholy in terms of playstyle currently but i do think a direct single target buff would be quite needed, in terms of cleave aoe i think we perform really well. in terms of the raid currently we do have a place in mythic for some bosses especially ZUL and MYTHRAX i personally love them fights because i have something do manage and do that directly benefits our raid.

    Now talking numbers i personally got (i know its just normal) 96-99 parses for both over all and ilevel and hunters/rogues/mages/warlocks are parsing 80-90 and still doing more dps then me (mostly single target fights or high mobility). now to see that i am in the top 50 dks performance on normal/heroic and still seeing people way ahead of me on dps is quite anoying but i forgive all this for the playstyle of unholy. personally i wouldnt play frost dk unless i had no option to actually get a spot in my raid team but luckily we are not taking it that serious and min max everything.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    You are taking things out of context.

    My point is that as long as everyone is doing fine there is no need to use resources on changes. Outlaw ST is gine right now so why should Blizzard employees use time on changing it. Unholy and Frost are fine right now so why should Blizzard employees use time on changing it. There will never be perfect balance.

    I mained DK for whole Legion and I never complained about them being in the middle of the pack. I rerolled to Rogue to try something new and I don’t really care about my class being on the top of the logs. But I question when Blizzard use ressources on unnecessary changes. If Rogues had been worse from the start the I would be fine with it. But why are they using time and money on fixing content which is fine (e.g outlaw ST)
    The game needs balance both in PvE and PvP. Each spec should have their strengths and weaknesses so every player can feel useful and strong in certain situations. Currently DK has no clear strengths but grip is useful on a few bosses. There are a limited amount of melee spots in a mythic raid and for most bosses you should bring 3 rogues 1 warrior and 2 DHs and WW/ret. There are no situations where a feral and enha should be brought instead of any of the other top melee classes.

    In Legion DK was not middle of the pack. In EN both specs were trash because of bad scaling and frost was so bad it got buffed several patches in a row. In NH frost was one of the strongest specs with the legendary helm. In tomb DK was in a pretty bad spot but better than EN. In Antorus they were fine.
    Last edited by goriander; 2018-09-10 at 10:48 AM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by goriander View Post
    The game needs balance both in PvE and PvP. Each spec should have their strengths and weaknesses so every player can feel useful and strong in certain situations. Currently DK has no clear strengths but grip is useful on a few bosses. There are a limited amount of melee spots in a mythic raid and for most bosses you should bring 3 rogues 1 warrior and 2 DHs and WW/ret. There are no situations where a feral and enha should be brought instead of any of the other top melee classes.

    In Legion DK was not middle of the pack. In EN both specs were trash because of bad scaling and frost was so bad it got buffed several patches in a row. In NH frost was one of the strongest specs with the legendary helm. In tomb DK was in a pretty bad spot but better than EN. In Antorus they were fine.
    I agree. The OP just made it sound like DK was on the bottom which is not true. When I said “fine” I meant they were in a viable spot with Unholy in middle and Frost just above the middle. If Blizzard have limited time then maybe other classes need it more. But that said they should of course always strive for better balancing.

    By the way, Unholy was great in Tomb. I did amazing dps with shoulders and CH. I will never forget that burst with T20

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