Is it time to start professions again?

[Pua]

Honestly, I've always loved professions - I think it's a key staple for any RPG, and this one has largely done some good things throughout its life but... I have to say, I think the Battle for Azeroth iteration is a mess.

For a start, the 150 points for all professions that have nothing to do with their previous iterations is bizarre. It's a skip-mechanic that has so many other solutions, and actually causes significant problems for those who want to craft earlier material for transmogrification purposes.

Secondly, why on earth has Archaeology not seen this approach?

I cannot think of a single reason why one profession still sits at 800, while the others have all seen expansion-governed reductions to 150 (which, presumably, is the future plan). Did they just not have time to do it? Is that what happened? Any other explanations, and I'd be grateful.

Thirdly, there are world quests that require all of the gathering professions... Of which a character could only have two at most. So if my world quest asks for flowers, and I'm a Blacksmith/Miner, should I buy them or tap up my alt? Some will argue, quite legitimately, that that's fine - but to me, it just seems awkward.

And then there's the sheer pointlessness of the crafting system itself. As a Blacksmith, all I can routinely equip myself with is 310 items that are universally quick to replace via world quests or easy-to-farm heroic dungeons. The material requirements to build the higher-level items are needlessly punitive, and work against each other. How many people are going to finally farm enough Mythic dungeon materials to make themselves a 340 piece that they already have better than, and that they won't see titanforge like dungeon/world quest slots will? This isn't to mention the fact that upgrading these pieces requires raid-ready materials that, once again, force players into content that make the crafts utterly redundant.

What's the point in going down this route with soulbound crafting materials?

Where's the upgrade system Legion had?

I just fundamentally don't understand what's happened to professions in this expansion. I can see that the designers clearly heard the complaints about RNG reliance in Legion, which was admittedly a pain, but now there's absolutely none. Every rank is conventionally found via a formulaic quest mechanic that only requires a certain skill level.

Where's the depth?

I think we're seriously at the point where the whole profession system needs rebooted. It doesn't require the robbery of plans or schematics, or even culling and replacing, it just needs the current system to be rebuilt from the ground up. Why do we have points at all, if they're now so disjointed? Why are crafts so tragically inefficient compared with all other forms? Why are there no benefits to being a high-plan crafter with experience? Why are we still in a world where can't just take all gathering professions and one crafting?

What we've currently got is effectively shoving everyone into Alchemy, because it's arguably now the only profession that actually matters.

Sad, sad times.

[Daedius]

You missed out on making a LOT of gold in the initial rush.

[Pua]

You missed out on making a LOT of gold in the initial rush.

Not really.

I'm just not sure "fleecing rubes for their gold" is a compelling, or deep, aspect of gameplay.

The gold that Alchemy, Inscription or Jewelcrafting delivers is a different topic.

[cevaps]

Not really.

I'm just not sure "fleecing rubes for their gold" is a compelling, or deep, aspect of gameplay.

The gold that Alchemy, Inscription or Jewelcrafting delivers is a different topic.

"Not really"? Day 1 scribes made 10m+ in first week and 20m+ in first 3 weeks. They capped everything + bought AH mount. Many of them bought 2nd - 3rd alt accs to shuffle with other realms or store capped gold at that accounts. They made THAT MUCH gold.

Also your title is total click-bait. Your post has nothing to do with the title. Title asks a simple question, and post is just whining.

[Pua]

Also your title is total click-bait. Your post has nothing to do with the title.

Would you do me a quick favour:

Go look up the definition of "click-bait". It's clear you're working with a personal definition, and not one understood by those who merely converse via conventional language.

Thanks in advance.

[quite an expert in wow]

I think it is really annoying if I would need to go back to old content to level up my professions, just so I can use current content crafting. This would require me to invest a boatload of time just to get to the very max level. Since we keep getting new expansion packs, it would get very time consuming. Older crafting items are usually scarse and buying them is not a valid option.

I guess archeology did not get the new crafting system because it is mostly a profession for personal use.

All crafting proffs sell their items very well on AH by the way. 300~ ish gear is in demand for alts and will probably be for the remainder of the expansion. You can get some welfare epics relatively easy, but you underestimate the demand. I continue to sell my crafting gear for a good profit and expect this not to change.

I personally found the leveling of profs in Legion super annoying by the way. For each alt I had to do tons of quests just to get to the sweet crafting. For someone that can play 8 hours a day this is probably not an issue, but if you can't and actually want to spend a bit of time in pvp and raids, it's just not an option.

TL;DR they probably implemented the new system so it takes less time for people to get to the point where they can actually craft their items.

[XDurionX]

I don't like the current iteration that much either, their usefulness varies too greatly. For their usefulness i'd rank them as such:

Herbalism (at the start of an xpac every gathering profession is in high demand, with herbalism staying high demand for the rest of the xpac guaranteed)
Mining (Very useful at the start, will drop off hard with time, though, since there's no ongoing need despite little demand from jewelcrafters)
Alchemy (The only useful crafting profession, staying relevant for raids for the whole xpac)
Enchanting (Dialed down a lot, but people will at least need SOME new enchants for new rings and weapons)
Jewelcrafting (Lasting demand for at least SOME gems, rings and weapons way too expensive for what they do)
Skinning (Least useful gathering, nobody needs leather but leatherworkers, which itself is pretty useless)
Inscription (Contracts are at least somewhat useful at the beginning, will drop hard with time though, provides buffs for smaller raids and Vantusrunes for progress bosses)
Blacksmithing/Leatherworking/Tailoring (Pretty useless, can't even sell crafted epics, little to no useful consumables, Tailoring at least has bags in the long term that will always be needed, leather harnesses and stirrups not so much. Plus: Skilling is insanely expensive at the start, 50 ore for one skill point? Better sell it on the AH until prices have dropped significantly)
Engineering (Is this even still in the game? Pretty irrelevant toys and gadgets. From being a must-have for utility for raiders to being somewhat uselees and expensive)

I liked the game better when there were more enchants, gems, belt buckles or extra sockets etc. Now it'S pretty pointless to have a crafting profession besides Alchemy.

[Pua]

TL;DR they probably implemented the new system so it takes less time for people to get to the point where they can actually craft their items.

You're only picking up on one point here, really, but I get what you're saying.

The thing is, they found the solution in Mists (and it's currently live for Archaeology). Namely, allowing trades of current materials for old ones. If you farm up a couple of hundred [Bear Arse Skin]s, you can trade them for the [Thick Leather] you need without going back to Felwood to find them.

"Time" is, therefore, not really a good excuse for gutting professions.

More and more I'm simply concluding that they couldn't really be arsed with professions in this expansion. The "team", assuming there was one, was busy with other things. Selling hot dogs at the snack stand, maybe.

[Nathasil]

I honestly believe the time professions will shine again is ~1 year from now when classic launches. I feel they have completely given up on professions in the retail game.

Aside from the obvious raid-support-professions that always shine, Legion had exactly 1 month of professions being useful. 1 month out of ~24. That's pathetic.
And BFA is worse in EVERY way.

[MoanaLisa]

I honestly believe the time professions will shine again is ~1 year from now when classic launches. I feel they have completely given up on professions in the retail game.

I agree and think that the current situation is mysterious given the metrics they're trying to reach for business purposes. Professions by themselves can be something more than a mini-game in a well-fleshed out system and why they don't do this is very frustrating. I've been a proponent in the past of removing the need for so many alts by simply opening up all professions to anyone who wants to take them on and then providing a professions system with some depth and character progression in itself.

[Nathasil]

I agree and think that the current situation is mysterious given the metrics they're trying to reach for business purposes. Professions by themselves can be something more than a mini-game in a well-fleshed out system and why they don't do this is very frustrating. I've been a proponent in the past of removing the need for so many alts by simply opening up all professions to anyone who wants to take them on and then providing a professions system with some depth and character progression in itself.

As i said in the post above...there was ONE month in Legion when professions actually worked, when you could upgrade the 7.0 pieces to 10/10 and the new raid was not open yet. In that ONE month craftable gear was competitive with HC raid dropps. Which i consider FINE. I actually tried to get some optimal secondary rolls in those 4 weeks. It was not "great"...but it was good enough to say "professions worked".

Aside from this one, tiny time-window there was no use for anything but the raid-support-professions.

In WoD professions were much more useful than Legion. More boring, yes, but more useful. I did not like the WoD design AT ALL - but i did use it.
The last time i was somewhat content with professions was MoP, when most professions offered a gear-enhancement. I made and sold soooooo many belt buckles in MoP....good times.

It does not take much to make professions work. But Legion missed it 90% of the expansion...and BFA so far is looking to be even worse.

[Nyel]

You missed out on making a LOT of gold in the initial rush.

This isn't the case in BfA though. The only professions I can think of making gold even in months is Herbalism and Alchemy.

I remember making gold in Legion weeks after launch but all professions except the mentioned two above seem to be... almost useless.

I made maybe 50k with Mining due to selling gems but that's it. Gems are super cheap now and you really don't need ore. Enchanting... ring enchants being more expensive than weapon enchants? What's even going on.

[isaac2314]

Honestly, I've always loved professions - I think it's a key staple for any RPG, and this one has largely done some good things throughout its life but... I have to say, I think the Battle for Azeroth iteration is a mess.

For a start, the 150 points for all professions that have nothing to do with their previous iterations is bizarre. It's a skip-mechanic that has so many other solutions, and actually causes significant problems for those who want to craft earlier material for transmogrification purposes.

Personally, I think the separation of Profession levels into different categories depending on Expansion isn't a bad thing. As long as Profession points is an accumulated thing, Blizzard would either need to make the newest expansion stuff be craftable at point 1 (which is what they did for WoD and Legion and made profession points rather pointless) or introduce catch-up mechanisms that, again, allow you to bypass the earlier expansions right into the current one. Well, actually Blizzard used both to some extent.

As it is, the current system of separation allowed profession points to be a relevant mechanism again, which I personally believe would have been impossible if we stuck with the old system - or, at least, not without sacrificing some other thing we want, like accessibility to current expansion profession.

Yes, it does make crafting old BoE items problematic, but frankly some people, myself included, consider that a feature. Why should you be able to craft a pair of Runecloth Shoulderpads or a set of Primal Mooncloth items willy-nilly? And yes, it has made everyone who played between WoD and Legion unfairly advantaged since they probably, like myself, leveled their army of crafters with cheap WoD/Legion materials.

I admit, though, it's not a decision that has pleased everyone - no, truthfully I'm not even sure it's a decision that pleased more people than it displeased, but I think it makes some degree of sense and has made profession less trivial than before, which I think is a good thing.

And then there's the sheer pointlessness of the crafting system itself. As a Blacksmith, all I can routinely equip myself with is 310 items that are universally quick to replace via world quests or easy-to-farm heroic dungeons. The material requirements to build the higher-level items are needlessly punitive, and work against each other. How many people are going to finally farm enough Mythic dungeon materials to make themselves a 340 piece that they already have better than, and that they won't see titanforge like dungeon/world quest slots will? This isn't to mention the fact that upgrading these pieces requires raid-ready materials that, once again, force players into content that make the crafts utterly redundant.

What's the point in going down this route with soulbound crafting materials?

Where's the upgrade system Legion had?

I just fundamentally don't understand what's happened to professions in this expansion. I can see that the designers clearly heard the complaints about RNG reliance in Legion, which was admittedly a pain, but now there's absolutely none. Every rank is conventionally found via a formulaic quest mechanic that only requires a certain skill level.

Still, no one's going to deny that professions have been very......optional, since WoD. Supposedly that is intentional - they don't want you to HAVE to learn professions for PvE advantages, or HAVE to be involved with professions to acquire the innumerable enchants your items need before the WoD purge. That might be what Blizzard wants - making professions by-and-large irrelevant - but the Legion/BfA flask/potion/herb situation makes you wonder if that's really what they want. If the intention is to make players less reliant on AH/professions it doesn't seem to have succeeded. As it is, all it seemed to have done was to shift the reliance from practically every profession to herbalism.

Although to be honest I'm not sure professions have been engaging for a long time, myself, even before WoD. We generally are able to craft 2 slots of next-to-best ilvl items, which sometimes need raid and sometimes don't, and sets of less good items that can be mass produced. Legion was a considerable deviation in that regard, although it's honestly more quantitative than qualitative; before Antorus it had complete sets of normal difficulty gear but no higher-level ones, at one point (I think it was ToS) Obliterum can take you to heroic-level ilvls, and Argus had only 1 slot of craftable gear instead of 2. Basically, as someone already pointed out, Legion's Obliterum system wasn't all that good either.

On the whole, profession has been very restricted on what it can make for a long time since at least Ulduar without much innovation. Maybe it's just that Blizzard plain hasn't devoted much if anything to the whole thing.

.....but yes, I'd also prefer the return of Legion crafted stuff myself, despite the fact that everyone could craft them and profits were generally slim to nonexistent. It's still better than nothing.
But also to be fair, we don't really know what the Legion crafting system did to the playerbase/economy. Blizzard doesn't like people being reliant on professions, and I'm not sure that thoroughout Legion people weren't doing exactly that, dishing out gold for crafted gear just to be able to queue Heroic.

Lastly, I always thought that professions "work" or don't depending, to a very great degree, on how many people are bothering with professions. Profit margins are, probably, always going to be low when everyone's trying to "do" professions. I don't know how the number of people doing professions/margin of profit of current expansion stuff really evolved, though. If you want my entirely baseless guess, I'd blame it on WoW Token and the concomitant desire for gold.

PS: Exchanging new materials for old ones isn't a bad idea, I suppose. I suspect, though, that Blizzard simply wants people to return to older areas and not spend all their time in new ones.

[Pua]

I feel they have completely given up on professions in the retail game.

Aside from the obvious raid-support-professions that always shine, Legion had exactly 1 month of professions being useful. 1 month out of ~24. That's pathetic.
And BFA is worse in EVERY way.

The more I think about it, the more I reckon this is the issue. They've just concluded that professions are something nobody cares much about (hence the First Aid removal), and removed all the depth from them.

I've been a proponent in the past of removing the need for so many alts by simply opening up all professions to anyone who wants to take them on and then providing a professions system with some depth and character progression in itself.

Honestly, I think making gathering professions into secondaries would be enough. That way it could more fairly incorporate all of them (who lines armour without leather?), and provide additional value to the system. The sad part is that even an innocent question about their vision for crafting professions wouldn't see a Blizzard response.

That alone is telling.

PS: Exchanging new materials for old ones isn't a bad idea, I suppose. I suspect, though, that Blizzard simply wants people to return to older areas and not spend all their time in new ones.

Mmm, maybe.

Perhaps at an inflated rate that's not one-to-one would solve that, but it's not really a deal breaker either way.

[isaac2314]

The more I think about it, the more I reckon this is the issue. They've just concluded that professions are something nobody cares much about (hence the First Aid removal), and removed all the depth from them.

This is less on-topic and more chatting, but I've also come to suspect there ARE loads of people doing professions; at least, more than we have demand for their products. Ever since WoD demands for contemporary goods have struggled to catch up to supply, and very often people will, for one reason or another, produce a lot of items to level up their professions only to dump those items for a fraction of material costs. Not that things are consistently unprofitable, of course, the opposite - if you buy at the right times you can generally consistently make gold, but generally gold-making through the AH through current-expansion goods is like pulling teeth.

The most likely explanation for that, to me, is that there has actually been too many people involved in professions - of course, part of the problem is probably also that materials are not being consumed fast enough. No, rather, that ever since the WoD purge there simply has not been any real way to consume goods quick enough. Buckles, inscriptions, gems, spellthreads, armor kits, majority of enchants, all gone. Potions and flasks alone were left, with the results that we have seen for the last two expansions.

[Pua]

This is less on-topic and more chatting, but I've also come to suspect there ARE loads of people doing professions; at least, more than we have demand for their products.

I don't think that's anywhere near as tangential as you suggest.

As professions have been streamlined (as in, quicker and easier to come up with high volume crafts) in tandem with their drop in equipped value, the supply will undoubtedly start to exceed the demand. That's why obliterum happened, and has been continued with scrapping. It allows a player to build lots of items and do something useful with those they don't sell; as in, the majority. This particular issue is exasperated by the fact that items are now randomly itemized when, arguably, professions are the ideal place to do things like Azerite Armor or proc weapons.

Again, worsening things, the design intent that crafted gear is so easily moved past... I just don't get the design intent. Technically speaking, you can outgear your crafted stuff via normal dungeons.

This is a real debacle, and there are so many ways they could make a deep, meaningful, fun and rewarding system. Instead, crafting professions (other than Alchemy, really) are now something else you just level and then forget.

I'd just really like to know why.

[Pua]

Just noticed the approach to Sanguicell.

This expansion just didn’t launch finished, did it?

[Pandragon]

What we've currently got is effectively shoving everyone into Alchemy, because it's arguably now the only profession that actually matters.

Not that much. I'm barely making profits with Alchemy unless I get super lucky with procs.

[Pua]

Not that much. I'm barely making profits with Alchemy unless I get super lucky with procs.

I mean in terms of utility rather than profits, bud. People will always need flasks and potions.

[Justpassing]

They should just trash the professions already like First Aid. They aren't getting any better.