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  1. #21
    Others have said it already but lets repeat it.

    People dont care about PvP, they care of whatever psychological satisfaction and chemical releases happen in their brain when they win.

    In order to win easy mode, you used to be able to outgear the majority and act superior etc.

    From a RPG aspect the logic is that if you have better gear you should always win.

    That was Vanilla and early TBC, after that they started balancing things since PvP was becoming its own thing.

    WoW hasnt been a RPG but an ARPG for the last 8 years or so, so the logic of "RPG I HAVE MORE GEAR SHOULD ALWAYS WIN", should not exist.

    Templates were fine for those that actually wanted to PvP, but reality is, only a few % of "PvPers" actually care to PvP, most just care to curbstomp the others with superior gear.

    Which is why they dislike templates, but as i said before, its no longer a RPG, its an ARPG, Blizzard is just trying to make things more equal instead of.

    "Little Nick played a lot the first 20 days and his ahead of the curve, now he pretends he is good while drooling on his keyboard and killing others.

    Little Nick doesnt want balance."
    Last edited by potis; 2018-09-14 at 04:42 PM.

  2. #22
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Others have said it already but lets repeat it.

    People dont care about PvP, they care of whatever psychological satisfaction and chemical releases happen in their brain when they win.

    In order to win easy mode, you used to be able to outgear the majority and act superior etc.

    From a RPG aspect the logic is that if you have better gear you should always win.

    That was Vanilla and early TBC, after that they started balancing things since PvP was becoming its own thing.

    WoW hasnt been a RPG but an ARPG for the last 8 years or so, so the logic of "RPG I HAVE MORE GEAR SHOULD ALWAYS WIN", should not exist.

    Templates were fine for those that actually wanted to PvP, but reality is, only a few % of "PvPers" actually care to PvP, most just care to curbstomp the others with superior gear.

    Which is why they dislike templates, but as i said before, its no longer a RPG, its an ARPG, Blizzard is just trying to make things more equal instead of.

    "Little Nick played a lot the first 20 days and his ahead of the curve, now he pretends he is good while drooling on his keyboard and killing others.

    Little Nick doesnt want balance."
    what if i told u, it could be turned around too?
    the kids of today cant handle being beaten, it needs to be fair or my ego cant handle this loss. Hell even with it being fair, most cant handle it, which is also a reason why toxicity is so huge in gaming.
    Removing a huge aspect, like gear progression from pvp, is just a boring and shitty solution to satisfy the egos of emotionally unstable players.

    we've had pvp gear with accessability pretty much to everyone before, how is that bad even if it takes u 2 weeks more to gear up than the chad ganking u in AB? How can u really not handle that?
    Rating locked weapon upgrades were also a thing, so u had to play to get the piece of gear, which was 100% doable even if u fought everyone who had it, as long as u played well. And if u want that piece of gear, well go fucking get it.

    what if i told u the "real" pvpers, want nothing more than balance, but also want a core aspect of the game like gear progression?

  3. #23
    Templates should never come back.

    It forced talent choices and gearing options.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  4. #24
    Deleted
    My first post on MMO but I feel maybe this topic is a good place to start.

    After reading through the replies and opinions about PvP Templates, personally, I feel as if the argument in regards to the PvP Template setup from Legion is favorable to alts but frustrating to a point where players who've spent hours of gear progression to at least have that mean something in every aspect of the game, including PvP. Even if PvP is not as popular or a mainstream part of the game unlike raiding, mythic+, and other PvE directions.

    This could be attributed to the fact that PvP would never be in a state where the higher majority are "happy" in its state because of how a PvP community usually acts towards each other, or the development team that is responsible for its direction.
    (Though it is noteworthy to say not everyone who participates in PvP is toxic).

    But more to the point, No group of players in terms of PvP will ever have matching feedback in terms of how they perceive the PvP state in BFA or any other expansion.

    This could be for various reasons such as:
    * Class variation.
    * Competition levels.
    * Not meeting X requirements for rewards.
    * Not being able to compete at what they perceive as their level of play.
    * Gaps in the player to player ability: Aka - Skill level.
    * The feeling X player "deserves" or is entitled to tier 1 rewards or prestige as a result of reaching X goals.
    * Peer to peer hostility and toxic behavior.
    * Incorrect or inaccurate information which results in frustration amongst players and staff with the feeling of being ignored.



    And to finish up,
    In the eyes or mind of a PvP developer, imagine the hundreds of thousands of comments, threads, tickets and reports saying X, Y or Z is and I say this loosely, "Broken, bugged or simply wrong" because a player has experienced a loss or frustrating death which results in "OMG FIX THIS PLS".
    And please remember for this reply that this does not apply to PvE, image players being "forced" into a template raiding format, or dungeon template format or anything that PvP players have experienced that are no longer in the game due to selective feedback.

    I do think that people saying people do not care about PvP, and that is why things should change is ludicrous! under any explanation or justification.
    I am also trying to have this post come from both sides of the argument because both sides have points that make sense, but those points are being taken far out of context and spun into an endless argument.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Phailox View Post
    what if i told u, it could be turned around too?
    the kids of today cant handle being beaten, it needs to be fair or my ego cant handle this loss. Hell even with it being fair, most cant handle it, which is also a reason why toxicity is so huge in gaming.
    Removing a huge aspect, like gear progression from pvp, is just a boring and shitty solution to satisfy the egos of emotionally unstable players.

    we've had pvp gear with accessability pretty much to everyone before, how is that bad even if it takes u 2 weeks more to gear up than the chad ganking u in AB? How can u really not handle that?
    Rating locked weapon upgrades were also a thing, so u had to play to get the piece of gear, which was 100% doable even if u fought everyone who had it, as long as u played well. And if u want that piece of gear, well go fucking get it.

    what if i told u the "real" pvpers, want nothing more than balance, but also want a core aspect of the game like gear progression?
    I dont deny there are real PvPers out there that enjoy PvP, i am talking about the majority.

    It has nothing to do with kids of today,its always the same, it was the same 14 years ago.

    A normal human being has the desire to win, if you dont have the desire to win there is something seriously wrong with that persons DNA etc etc.

    Its my personal opinion but, WoW is so unbalanced all the time in PVP that anyone that even bothers to "seriously PvP" is a massive moron for my standards and he is literally wasting time, we are all wasting time playing WoW, but playing WoW to only PvP is like a double waste.

    WoW is like a trip from City A to City B, just because there are villages D/E/F on the way to City B that you can visit and stay there, does not mean you have completed your goal.

    In terms of gameplay that means WoW is literally gear chase to raid (City B), until the next reset aka expansion. (Flight home to City A to repeat).

    Just because you visit Village D (PVP), Village E(Pet battles), Village F(Transmog and achievement hunting, does not mean you have actually done what you are are supposed to in the trip.

    The game has changed to cater to the majority of today, the 30 year old+ players are slowly disappearing or are more interested on other things like Village F and, the game needs to attract the younger blood, it cant do it by remaining stale, thats why the game is changing.

    For the better or worst its everyone's opinion but it doesnt change the fact.
    Last edited by potis; 2018-09-14 at 05:44 PM.

  6. #26
    Scaling currently is in effect in instanced PVP meaning everyone has the same HP and relative damage output.

    The playing field is pretty even at the moment.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Templates need to be added back, minus that ilvl scaling bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Your argument gives on a limited definition of RPG. There is no reason why a RPG can't be about skill.
    Templates ARE ilevel scaling, just less intrusive and hidden well enough for the untrained eye to think there's some kind of advantage to having better gear

  8. #28
    Templates are gone. All that is left are class auras and PVP tags for modifying abilities.

    I can see why people conflate templates with class auras though. Templates had cookie cutter distribution of secondary stats.

    With BFA that is no more.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    Oh yes, the alt falacy. I don't give a shit about your alts.
    Yes because you know it's embarrassing to lose to someone on an alt while on your main when gear isn't your crutch. Didn't bother me in previous expansions, I just farmed the gear. Any time pve trinkets have been good in PvP the game has been awful, and templates removed this from being a possibility. Just today, in the tournament people are using some tank trinket to basically gain an entire extra defensive and it's not enjoyable for anyone.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Resentless View Post
    Yes because you know it's embarrassing to lose to someone on an alt while on your main when gear isn't your crutch. Didn't bother me in previous expansions, I just farmed the gear. Any time pve trinkets have been good in PvP the game has been awful, and templates removed this from being a possibility. Just today, in the tournament people are using some tank trinket to basically gain an entire extra defensive and it's not enjoyable for anyone.
    WoW is not an arena simulator. I've been playing this game for more than a decade, most of the time focused solely on pvp and lack of stat templates never bothered me.

    Once again, I don't five a shit about your alts. Put in the effort to gear them and stop bitching.

  11. #31
    Stat templates were terrible and the reason pvp participation in Legion was minimal. Went from 0 people in my guild doing pvp throughout Legion to 40+ doing it consistently now.

    It's stupid to have a character that you get used to playing, especially if you stack haste, and then you enter a bg or arena and you're playing a completely different and totally generic character that casts 30% slower. PVP last xpac was like slow motion, playing in molasses, super boring.

    They've normalized ilvl, so gearing doesn't really matter that much, azerite pieces are all over the map every day ... if someone wants to play an alt but can't be bothered to go get 3 azerite pieces they obv aren't going to put in any effort during the matches anyway and it's 100% good that they get stomped. Takes minimal effort really to gear a character up enough to participate.

    Sure, a fresh decision to main swap needs a few hours put in and doesn't compete right out of the box, but the benefit to everyone else's enjoyment far outweighs that minimal initial time needed to be spent.

  12. #32
    Thank god they removed it. Best decision they made. Stop playing 5 alts and focus on a main. You cant seriously expect to play multiple chars n still be on a level playing field with someone whos invested all there time on 1 character right? Last expac killed PvP for me, your a new level 110, why should you be almost the same as a guy whos played and geared up for the last 9 months? Pff...

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Templates need to be added back, minus that ilvl scaling bullshit.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Your argument gives on a limited definition of RPG. There is no reason why a RPG can't be about skill.
    No, but there is a compelling argument that people like you are such a tiny minority of MMO players you aren't worth paying any attention to or developing for.

    You got your way in Legion.

    PvP participation fell NINETY. FUCKING. PERCENT.

    Thats called "abysmal failure".

  14. #34
    Stood in the Fire Resentless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    WoW is not an arena simulator. I've been playing this game for more than a decade, most of the time focused solely on pvp and lack of stat templates never bothered me.

    Once again, I don't five a shit about your alts. Put in the effort to gear them and stop bitching.
    Telling people to stop bitching is one way to kill your game. I've also been playing for nearly a decade, and given your lack of response towards pve gear in PvP, I can tell exactly what kind of player you are and there is no arguing with someone who wants the call of duty experience of queuing up for some random bgs and just whacking people. Thats ok, there's plenty of people like you. But to say it's not an 'arena simulator' implies you are extremely close minded in how you expect PvP in this game to be. If it was your way, I'd still win anyway, but luckily there are more engaging and competitive things to do.

    You're right, nowadays I will just gear my alts. Farming to 2k even in just greens is easy and luckily in BFA the random drops are massive increased from legion so I'll be 350 in no time. The same cannot be said for new players/people first trying out PvP however, and you know the number one thing that turns people off from pvping in this game? Going into a random bg and getting sent to the graveyard repeatedly by someone vastly outgearing them, just like in any period from mop down to vanilla. It's fun for the player doing that, but not for them. Templates eliminated this entirely. If you don't see that or why that's a good thing for the health of PvP then I don't know what to say. Luckily, there's still ilvl scaling between players so it effectively is the same as legion anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    No, but there is a compelling argument that people like you are such a tiny minority of MMO players you aren't worth paying any attention to or developing for.

    You got your way in Legion.

    PvP participation fell NINETY. FUCKING. PERCENT.

    Thats called "abysmal failure".
    This person didn't get 'their' way, blizzard tried something new. Most of that system has stayed btw, if you haven't noticed. Only you keep your stats going into PvP, but now how much you hit an enemy for is entirely based on their ilvl Vs yours, with nothing in the game explaining that to you unless you look it up on forums.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Resentless View Post
    Telling people to stop bitching is one way to kill your game. I've also been playing for nearly a decade, and given your lack of response towards pve gear in PvP, I can tell exactly what kind of player you are and there is no arguing with someone who wants the call of duty experience of queuing up for some random bgs and just whacking people. Thats ok, there's plenty of people like you. But to say it's not an 'arena simulator' implies you are extremely close minded in how you expect PvP in this game to be. If it was your way, I'd still win anyway, but luckily there are more engaging and competitive things to do.

    You're right, nowadays I will just gear my alts. Farming to 2k even in just greens is easy and luckily in BFA the random drops are massive increased from legion so I'll be 350 in no time. The same cannot be said for new players/people first trying out PvP however, and you know the number one thing that turns people off from pvping in this game? Going into a random bg and getting sent to the graveyard repeatedly by someone vastly outgearing them, just like in any period from mop down to vanilla. It's fun for the player doing that, but not for them. Templates eliminated this entirely. If you don't see that or why that's a good thing for the health of PvP then I don't know what to say. Luckily, there's still ilvl scaling between players so it effectively is the same as legion anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This person didn't get 'their' way, blizzard tried something new. Most of that system has stayed btw, if you haven't noticed. Only you keep your stats going into PvP, but now how much you hit an enemy for is entirely based on their ilvl Vs yours, with nothing in the game explaining that to you unless you look it up on forums.
    There is scaling in pvp. As for you trying to discern who I am and how I play.. It isn't going very well for you. If I wanted a dick measurement contest I would definitely win because it is massive

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    There is scaling in pvp. As for you trying to discern who I am and how I play.. It isn't going very well for you. If I wanted a dick measurement contest I would definitely win because it is massive
    You don't have to tell me, it's clear from the way you speak about PvP. You don't reply to any other points because you know I'm right. And yes, there is scaling in PvP so arguing for no templates is already pointless because they effectively still exist, but better now, although the scaling is entirely unexplained in game which is a big problem.
    Last edited by Resentless; 2018-09-15 at 03:35 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Resentless View Post
    You don't have to tell me, it's clear from the way you speak about PvP. You don't reply to any other points because you know I'm right. And yes, there is scaling in PvP so arguing for no templates is already pointless because they effectively still exist, but better now, although the scaling is entirely unexplained in game which is a big problem.
    Scaling isn't templates.

    Scaling existed in WoD for example as well.

    Templates forced cookie cutter secondary stats.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Scaling isn't templates.

    Scaling existed in WoD for example as well.

    Templates forced cookie cutter secondary stats.
    And generally, they were whatever was needed to make your class balanced. And the scaling in wod was only based on the gear that had scaling. The BFA scaling is based on your ilvl regardless of level, which is more elegant, I suppose.

  19. #39
    Blizzard had absolutely no interest in normalizing Pvp gear. It turns out the additional of artifacts would have made Pvp a nighmare to balance, so instead of neutering the artifact (cause they couldn't do it since the whole class design revolved around it), they neutered the gear.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    The concept that you push. It's basically saying because it's always been done this way so it has to be done this way.
    Of course, it is called RPG. It is like complaining that we can't use our hands while playing soccer. If you don't like this style of game, you can try non-mmo games like LoL, Counter Strike, Fortnite, super smash bros...

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