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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    The concept that you push. It's basically saying because it's always been done this way so it has to be done this way.
    Of course, it is called RPG. It is like complaining that we can't use our hands while playing soccer. If you don't like this style of game, you can try non-mmo games like LoL, Counter Strike, Fortnite, super smash bros...

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    Of course, it is called RPG. It is like complaining that we can't use our hands while playing soccer. If you don't like this style of game, you can try non-mmo games like LoL, Counter Strike, Fortnite, super smash bros...
    Soccer is a specific game, RPG is a broad genre with varying gameplay concepts. There is no single authority on how it should be, and if there is, it certainly isn't you.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Resentless View Post
    This person didn't get 'their' way, blizzard tried something new. Most of that system has stayed btw, if you haven't noticed. Only you keep your stats going into PvP, but now how much you hit an enemy for is entirely based on their ilvl Vs yours, with nothing in the game explaining that to you unless you look it up on forums.
    Nah man, i'm just quoting facts.

    PvP participation fell 90% (both casual and rated - a little more than 90% on casual, even) in Legion.

    That's abysmal failure defined.

    When you implement a new idea, and it causes 90% of your players to quit that activity, thats failure. Full stop.

  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire Resentless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Nah man, i'm just quoting facts.

    PvP participation fell 90% (both casual and rated - a little more than 90% on casual, even) in Legion.

    That's abysmal failure defined.

    When you implement a new idea, and it causes 90% of your players to quit that activity, thats failure. Full stop.
    explain this 90% drop again, thats from arenamate right? Why would you trust arenamate in legion after the major fuckups they had with their api during that first season, and then being cut off entirely for the remaining seasons?

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Resentless View Post
    explain this 90% drop again, thats from arenamate right? Why would you trust arenamate in legion after the major fuckups they had with their api during that first season, and then being cut off entirely for the remaining seasons?
    ... thats straight from fucking Blizzard.

    They outright state how many Gladiators there were, and that information is published (right here on the front page of this website).

    Since the ladder is a p yramid, you can figure out exactly how many people were on the ladder any given season.

    Math hard.

    I mean, its almost like we went over this - and exactly how many people were on the ladder, and how many casuals even earned Prestige 2, much less 12 (which would equate to a single season of earning Conquest gear via BGs) like a dozen times.

  6. #46
    Stood in the Fire Resentless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    ... thats straight from fucking Blizzard.

    They outright state how many Gladiators there were, and that information is published (right here on the front page of this website).

    Since the ladder is a p yramid, you can figure out exactly how many people were on the ladder any given season.

    Math hard.

    I mean, its almost like we went over this - and exactly how many people were on the ladder, and how many casuals even earned Prestige 2, much less 12 (which would equate to a single season of earning Conquest gear via BGs) like a dozen times.
    and was this from season 1 or 2+ of legion that you got this information? did you add alliance and horde together since they were split in legion?

    but if there was a 90% reduction youre telling me there were only 30k people on the ladder in legion? uh....

  7. #47
    I think the idea behind templates were good, however the way they locked us into stats you may not want for a specific build wasnt good.
    If they wouldve let us perhaps choose what stats to focus on say a prio system I wouldve been more than fine with it.

    I dont think its too bad now either, I just leveled up my first alt. Entered 3s as a 290 ilvl Hunter, I had around 75k hp in total. I dont recall ever being roflstomped by anything. As for now my Hunter (which have done a total of 5 dungeons) is 350, quite behind on HoA levels but thats on me for not doing anything on it

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Soccer is a specific game, RPG is a broad genre with varying gameplay concepts. There is no single authority on how it should be, and if there is, it certainly isn't you.
    The concept of RPG is grind and become stronger. If you don't like it, find a new game rather than asking philosophical questions about the concept of a game genre.

  9. #49
    I always thought templates were a good thing.

    got my first hero of the alliance in Legion, and templates made it easier when I wanted to play alts, the power difference was relatively minor



    Not sure why people complained about templates so much, unless they're one of the people that suck at PVP and needed superior gear to stand a chance.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    The concept of RPG is grind and become stronger. If you don't like it, find a new game rather than asking philosophical questions about the concept of a game genre.
    Again, no it's not. Many RPGs in existence do not revolve around grinding to become stronger. You are picking one aspect form a few and trying to pass it off as a requirement.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Frosteye View Post
    I always thought templates were a good thing.

    got my first hero of the alliance in Legion, and templates made it easier when I wanted to play alts, the power difference was relatively minor



    Not sure why people complained about templates so much, unless they're one of the people that suck at PVP and needed superior gear to stand a chance.
    ... you do realize that the gearing system in Legion actually created larger power gaps than the previous system, right?

    Jeebus are people clueless about what was actually going on.

  12. #52
    Pandaren Monk msdos's Avatar
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    I'm not sure yet if it was the templates I wasn't feeling or if it was the gear model. Both of them together were really awful though.

    Right now PVP in BGs feels good. Can't complain.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wada View Post
    I guess the majority of WoW playerbase is full of kids who just wanna pwn low geared noobs.

    The stat templates were the best to happen to PvP.
    It cut down the need to level AND gear an alt if you wanted to try a different class to pvp with. And it brought WoW i to the modern era of PvP video games.

    Now it's shit again. I have to play my one class, because who the hell has time to level AND gear 12 alts every start of expansion?
    Exactly, stat template was great cause it made pvp more balanced than any other expansion. Problem with Legion was the reward system not game play.

    Problem is I really don't think Blizzard cares much about pvp or they don't have the time to fix these problems. Because their main priority is raid and pve content. And yeah majority of the players just want to pwn lower geared people in bgs and they are the vocal ones.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    ... you do realize that the gearing system in Legion actually created larger power gaps than the previous system, right?

    Jeebus are people clueless about what was actually going on.
    You got any facts to back that up?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Nah man, i'm just quoting facts.

    PvP participation fell 90% (both casual and rated - a little more than 90% on casual, even) in Legion.

    That's abysmal failure defined.

    When you implement a new idea, and it causes 90% of your players to quit that activity, thats failure. Full stop.
    I would put most of the blame of the gear reward, which was the problem. PvP reward in Legion was worse than crap but they have tried to improve since then. Reward from M+ was so much better it made rated pvping obsolete.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Irlking View Post
    You got any facts to back that up?
    Yeah, we did three or four complete teardowns of the entire system from Alpha - the last big changes about 14 months into Legion. Right down to the percentages.

    No, i'm not going to go looking for months-old posts that are on like page 40 by now. You can do that if you're interested. Theyre still there.

    The gist was:

    In WoD, you could obtain via six hours of no-PvP (and even no-PvE if you were careful) a full set of Honor gear. Honor gear was 9.4% behind, stat-wise, from Conquest gear. Meaning that if you had 1000 stamina on a full set of Conquest gear, you had 940 stamina on the Honor gear. Honor gear was completely viable to start PvPing without being at a giant disadvantage. Also, in that system, even as the casual-est of casuals, you got the same Conquest gear everyone else did by about 1/3 of the way through the season.

    In Legion, it was a complicated mess of what stacked with what and how, but the (simplest) version is:

    Your base stats in PvP were calculated as if you were a certain iLevel. This went up as Legion progressed, but started at 800. This part isn't super relevant, though, since it applied to everyone equally. But basically, all your base stats (Int, etc) were calculated as if you were this iLevel.

    THEN your template applied (when you saw "Agi set to 80%" or whatever, this is when this was applied)

    Then talents applied.

    Then PvP specific talents applied.

    Then artifact traits applied (if you had any that modified your stats, like crit, mastery, stam, etc).

    Then it applied the bonus stam for artifact traits (not specific traits, the .75% stam increase you got for every trait).

    THEN it applied the bonus for iLevel, at the very end, which was calculated (for the entirety of Legion) from a floor of iLevel 800. So, a fresh 110 heading into BGs cold be facing off against people that were 950-970 pretty easily at the end of Legion (which was 17%) a more likely/realistic scenario was 10-ish%.

    Add to that that in addition to having to increase your iLevel to not be outpowered, you ALSO had to unlock PvP talents depending on your class (some classes were viable with none, some needed every single unlock).... AND artifact traits (which didn't become easy to catch up on till the last 1/4 of the xpansion).... and it was a total shit-show from minute one.

    It was a WORSE power disparity in 95% of cases than the previous system. The ONLY benefit it had was to absolutely-fresh 110s who had nothing but the gear they got while questing, because it boosted them to the base iLevel (800, 850, then 900) and then applied the template. And it artificially segregated them into a separate queue, as well.

    They could still EASILY end up 12-17% behind in base stats, and 30-50% (for tank specs) behind in stam.

    I would put most of the blame of the gear reward, which was the problem. PvP reward in Legion was worse than crap but they have tried to improve since then. Reward from M+ was so much better it made rated pvping obsolete.
    I dont think we're disagreeing here, except that i'd argue the problem still exists in BfA. PvP for non-rated players is unrewarding. Therefore, they wont play.

  15. #55
    Legion PVP templates were great for PVE heroes and dragonslayers to jump right in and have fun. That is why Holnika designed the templates around what PVE players wanted for PVP and not want PVP players wanted for PVP.

    Too bad 90% of PVP players stopped doing PVP in legion due to templates.
    Battle for Abilities = WoD 2.0


    Quote Originally Posted by Rekz View Post
    I'll trust blizzard over your assessment. They've been doing this for a long time. It may very well be that your class is nerfed in which case, your class will feel as if it doesn't work correctly.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Because months ago this exact thread was made many times over "remove stat templates, they are shit"

    pvpers dont want skill based combat (well atleast fully) they want combat where you curb stomp your enemies with your superior gear.
    Except the removal of stat templates weren't 100% focused at being able to curb stomp people(RPG btw), but rather being able to focus certain stats, but that doesn't matter in BfA because ILVL = better philosophy and addition of RNG gearing for PvP, but ofc lets not forgt class design and class balance is garbage, and these so called class changes on the PTR are 95% balancing tuning, get class design down then balance.
    Last edited by Kagiri; 2018-09-22 at 04:02 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    Because months ago this exact thread was made many times over "remove stat templates, they are shit"

    pvpers dont want skill based combat (well atleast fully) they want combat where you curb stomp your enemies with your superior gear.
    Problem is that still doesn't exist. So the change was almost pointless.

  18. #58
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    Problem is that still doesn't exist. So the change was almost pointless.
    uhhh what...?
    Might want to reread your sentence and try again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    uhhh what...?
    Might want to reread your sentence and try again.
    You might want to reread it again.

    "Problem is that still doesn't exist" - That = "they want combat where you curb stomp your enemies with your superior gear".
    "So the change was almost pointless"
    Last edited by nyc81991; 2018-09-22 at 04:44 AM.

  20. #60
    The Insane FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nyc81991 View Post
    You might want to reread it again.

    "Problem is that still doesn't exist" - That = "they want combat where you curb stomp your enemies with your superior gear".
    "So the change was almost pointless"
    You must not PvP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

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