Patch 8.0.1 Hotfixes - Sept 17, PvP Scaling, Azurethos, Pet Battle Event

[emilpor]

A background system players shouldn't have to think about

Oh, weird, so you want your playerbase dumb + ignorant to how the game works, so that they can only make caveman like gestures "ME NO LIKE" when something doesn't "FEEL" right? That's utterly ridiculous. WoW is a 3D dikumud and can be reduced to pure math equations. The understanding of how your collection of items effects the math equations which then dictate how to play correctly is ALWAYS going to be there, no matter how much you try to hide or dumb down the game.

In the end, you move your character around a pseudo 3D space (maybe in wow 2 you'll finally nail that z-axis down) and press buttons to apply effects to a target or to an environment, and you consider lag into the timers.

Simultaneously, allies and enemies are doing the same thing.

The strength and timing of these effects, is decided by the gear you and your target is wearing.

So you're telling me that the determination of IF A TARGET IS WEAK/STRONG or IF A PIECE OF GEAR IS A GOOD CHOICE is "a background system?" LOLWUT?

It is literally mysterious, and the "bugs" you're referring to are what are completely unfounded. You have the audacity to claim your failure of a system is "not being perceived properly?" LOLWUT?

And claiming that "bugs" misconstrued things? How convenient. So it was a bug when I was destroying people with legendaries at lower level, but then gained one level and suddenly was getting 2 shot?

I'm not seeing the line drawn between bug and misbalance. Clearly you want that to be a thing, but really the entire system feels like a bug.



The bottomline, that you're apparently not getting, is that the numbers are not representative of the power. You know, those pesky little tooltips that tell you how strong something is relative to the cooldowns?

Again, perhaps this is something you're not quite understanding, but when you press a button it invokes what is known as the Greater Cool Down. That number DOES NOT GET ALTERED BY SCALING. How can it? Are you saying that you'd have "scaled haste"...

So when you say "something is diminished in PVP" or "your ilvl is scaled" that in fact MUST change the stat priority, damage rotation, what to worry about, etc. How can it not?

How can you claim that "scaling has no effect" at the same time that you, you know, have scaling?


It's just really baffling how you can get this basic thing so wrong. A LOWER ILEVEL PLAYER WITH IDEAL STAT DISTRIBUTION IS MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN A HIGH ILEVEL PLAYER WITH LESS IDEAL 2NDARY DISTRIBUTION DUE TO THE SCALING. That's why the "bug" of using low level gear with more sockets is STILL A THING. It is not "a bug."

Otherwise, yes, detail out what is actually scaled. you can't because the error would be glaringly obvious. It's like you forgot that when you extend the time of the fight it changes the value of GCD lowering / usage.




"The player has better gear, but is the same level as me and killed me within seconds"
"this doesn't feel fun or fair, is something broken."


That summarizes how utterly trash this game's PVP is. Instead of a progression where you GAIN POWER and are incentivized to do so so that everyone reaches a baseline, you have snowflake syndrome where those who think a game is broken when someone WHO HAS BETTER GEAR BEATS THEM are catered to for subscription money.

Here's a hint: if two people are playing a game and one has better gear, they SHOULD BEAT YOU.

Here's another hint: don't allow PVE gear to influence PVP. The abortion that is Warmode makes "all gear technically PVP hurr durr" but it's all very samey except for azerite traits which, the pvp ones, are in a different stratosphere.

Here's a final hint: It isn't fun or compelling when you cannot accurately measure what the effects of items are.

Even more importantly, when you make gear not matter, you are just making COMPS matter instead. So rather than Class_X SOMETIMES winning against Class_Y via outgearing them, you have Class_Y ALWAYS beating Class_X because "comp dictates it."

You have this horrid, lazy system of "random loot because LOL IT DOESN'T MATTER" and we're back to PVE trinkets and azerite traits mattering in PVP again.

They've constantly ignored how imbalanced arenas are because it is 100% based on comp population, and this season is absolutely no different. I was playing my few characters and on a lark decided to level up a discipline priest. Within 15 total played hours from 110 I now outgear and outrank my mains that have been playing since launch, and I am so completely OP in PVP relative to them it is a joke.

Sorry but no, they took out 5v5 because of the godawful imbalance and population issues, and part of that is the complete lack of real progression and more "gosh I hope the counter to my comp isn't >50% of my games."




TLDR: pvp right now is a muddled mess of not knowing what your abilities actually do, which work and which don't, how strong they are in PVP versus not. useless tooltips. and then when you find out how something works it is declared a bug and unintentional, so there is no way to really plan for anything, especially via random loot drops and mysterious secondary statting. this entire setup should be obvious and plain to see, and the reason it isn't is because you'd see how ridiculously awful the system is. and our feedback is "you shouldn't be thinking about that" and that "your experience is unfounded."

I came here curiously looking for the community's reaction on that BS paint explanation. Was rly disappointed seeing how nobody said anything, until your post. Now I am relieved!
It's as if that BS explains anything. Who is it written for? This guy clearly didn't spend even 1 minute on the forums. There are sooooo many posts on reddit that explain what the real issue is and here comes this guy, like out of a cave or something and tries to explain what he thinks people got confused over.

[zrankfappa]

I came here curiously looking for the community's reaction on that BS paint explanation. Was rly disappointed seeing how nobody said anything, until your post. Now I am relieved!
It's as if that BS explains anything. Who is it written for? This guy clearly didn't spend even 1 minute on the forums. There are sooooo many posts on reddit that explain what the real issue is and here comes this guy, like out of a cave or something and tries to explain what he thinks people got confused over.

You cannot formulate a reasonable argument without all the facts, thus all they leave players with is "feeling" and they don't grok feel. It's a smoke screen, and it's insulting to their playerbase.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure what classes you play but gearing up does make WQ's easier.

I play a Rogue at ilvl 358 and a Shadow Priest at ilvl 349.

At ilvl 310 on my Rogue I could kill maybe 2 or 3 things at a time. At 358 on Azerite WQ's I can pull the 500k health big elemental one and 4 small elementals and solo all 5 of them down at the same time.

At 310 on my Priest I couldn't do world quests without dying if I pulled more than 1 mob; I used Disc to do WQ's at that level. At 349 as Shadow I can solo the big 500k health elemental with no adds or I can kill like 3 or 4 of small ones at once. If I tried that at like 310 as Shadow I would have died in a few seconds.

WQ's not getting easier as you gear up is complete and utter bullshit unless you are an idiot and play Elemental.

You get 200% more powerful, the mobs get 120% more powerful it's not a 1:1 power gain.

Not a tank, sure you can pull more stuff because they dont hit as hard, but it still takes forever to kill them. It's a shit system, meant to slow down content consumption. I hate it.

[Geofferson]

Not a tank, sure you can pull more stuff because they dont hit as hard, but it still takes forever to kill them. It's a shit system, meant to slow down content consumption. I hate it.

Tanks are supposed to be high survivability and low damage. Do your WQ's as Arms / WW / Ret / Boomkin / Havoc / Unholy not as your Tank Spec.

We don't see an Tree Druids complaining that things take to long to die as they gear up because their Tree Damage is too low because that would be ridiculous. Solo'ing as Vengeance and expecting things to die as if you were Havoc is just as silly as a Tree expecting things to die as fast as they do for a Boomy.

Silly complaint is silly.

[zrankfappa]

Tanks are supposed to be high survivability and low damage. Do your WQ's as Arms / WW / Ret / Boomkin / Havoc / Unholy not as your Tank Spec.

We don't see an Tree Druids complaining that things take to long to die as they gear up because their Tree Damage is too low because that would be ridiculous. Solo'ing as Vengeance and expecting things to die as if you were Havoc is just as silly as a Tree expecting things to die as fast as they do for a Boomy.

Silly complaint is silly.

If the mobs health didnt scale making my power gains useless, i wouldn't be complaining, and you wouldn't be telling me not to play the way i want to play.

[Geofferson]

If the mobs health didnt scale making my power gains useless, i wouldn't be complaining, and you wouldn't be telling me not to play the way i want to play.

I think you are missing the point. If you want to solo as a tank and pull 15-20 mobs they are all going to die really slowly. If you solo as your DPS spec you may only be able to pull maybe 4 or 5 mobs at a time but they will die fast.

Having Tanks take minimal damage and deal a ton of damage is super broken. A Blood DK should not be finishing WQ's faster than an Enh Shaman. The Enh Shaman needs to do smaller pulls but kills things faster. Blood DK pulls more but things die slower. That my friend is balanced.

[zrankfappa]

I think you are missing the point. If you want to solo as a tank and pull 15-20 mobs they are all going to die really slowly. If you solo as your DPS spec you may only be able to pull maybe 4 or 5 mobs at a time but they will die fast.

Having Tanks take minimal damage and deal a ton of damage is super broken. A Blood DK should not be finishing WQ's faster than an Enh Shaman. The Enh Shaman needs to do smaller pulls but kills things faster. Blood DK pulls more but things die slower. That my friend is balanced.

I think it's safe to say we are going to disagree on this. I'd prefer that i become stronger in the open world as i gear up, and you'd prefer i play another spec.

[vashe9]

As BM hunter I can pull entire camps since early lvl 120... and even while leveling :/ I don't understand your concerns hahahahaha

[Nonow]

Nicely said. I just want to add my lol to people who still somehow feel like WQs are not easy.

A background system players shouldn't have to think about

Oh, weird, so you want your playerbase dumb + ignorant to how the game works, so that they can only make caveman like gestures "ME NO LIKE" when something doesn't "FEEL" right? That's utterly ridiculous. WoW is a 3D dikumud and can be reduced to pure math equations. The understanding of how your collection of items effects the math equations which then dictate how to play correctly is ALWAYS going to be there, no matter how much you try to hide or dumb down the game.

In the end, you move your character around a pseudo 3D space (maybe in wow 2 you'll finally nail that z-axis down) and press buttons to apply effects to a target or to an environment, and you consider lag into the timers.

Simultaneously, allies and enemies are doing the same thing.

The strength and timing of these effects, is decided by the gear you and your target is wearing.

So you're telling me that the determination of IF A TARGET IS WEAK/STRONG or IF A PIECE OF GEAR IS A GOOD CHOICE is "a background system?" LOLWUT?

It is literally mysterious, and the "bugs" you're referring to are what are completely unfounded. You have the audacity to claim your failure of a system is "not being perceived properly?" LOLWUT?

And claiming that "bugs" misconstrued things? How convenient. So it was a bug when I was destroying people with legendaries at lower level, but then gained one level and suddenly was getting 2 shot?

I'm not seeing the line drawn between bug and misbalance. Clearly you want that to be a thing, but really the entire system feels like a bug.



The bottomline, that you're apparently not getting, is that the numbers are not representative of the power. You know, those pesky little tooltips that tell you how strong something is relative to the cooldowns?

Again, perhaps this is something you're not quite understanding, but when you press a button it invokes what is known as the Greater Cool Down. That number DOES NOT GET ALTERED BY SCALING. How can it? Are you saying that you'd have "scaled haste"...

So when you say "something is diminished in PVP" or "your ilvl is scaled" that in fact MUST change the stat priority, damage rotation, what to worry about, etc. How can it not?

How can you claim that "scaling has no effect" at the same time that you, you know, have scaling?


It's just really baffling how you can get this basic thing so wrong. A LOWER ILEVEL PLAYER WITH IDEAL STAT DISTRIBUTION IS MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN A HIGH ILEVEL PLAYER WITH LESS IDEAL 2NDARY DISTRIBUTION DUE TO THE SCALING. That's why the "bug" of using low level gear with more sockets is STILL A THING. It is not "a bug."

Otherwise, yes, detail out what is actually scaled. you can't because the error would be glaringly obvious. It's like you forgot that when you extend the time of the fight it changes the value of GCD lowering / usage.




"The player has better gear, but is the same level as me and killed me within seconds"
"this doesn't feel fun or fair, is something broken."


That summarizes how utterly trash this game's PVP is. Instead of a progression where you GAIN POWER and are incentivized to do so so that everyone reaches a baseline, you have snowflake syndrome where those who think a game is broken when someone WHO HAS BETTER GEAR BEATS THEM are catered to for subscription money.

Here's a hint: if two people are playing a game and one has better gear, they SHOULD BEAT YOU.

Here's another hint: don't allow PVE gear to influence PVP. The abortion that is Warmode makes "all gear technically PVP hurr durr" but it's all very samey except for azerite traits which, the pvp ones, are in a different stratosphere.

Here's a final hint: It isn't fun or compelling when you cannot accurately measure what the effects of items are.

Even more importantly, when you make gear not matter, you are just making COMPS matter instead. So rather than Class_X SOMETIMES winning against Class_Y via outgearing them, you have Class_Y ALWAYS beating Class_X because "comp dictates it."

You have this horrid, lazy system of "random loot because LOL IT DOESN'T MATTER" and we're back to PVE trinkets and azerite traits mattering in PVP again.

They've constantly ignored how imbalanced arenas are because it is 100% based on comp population, and this season is absolutely no different. I was playing my few characters and on a lark decided to level up a discipline priest. Within 15 total played hours from 110 I now outgear and outrank my mains that have been playing since launch, and I am so completely OP in PVP relative to them it is a joke.

Sorry but no, they took out 5v5 because of the godawful imbalance and population issues, and part of that is the complete lack of real progression and more "gosh I hope the counter to my comp isn't >50% of my games."




TLDR: pvp right now is a muddled mess of not knowing what your abilities actually do, which work and which don't, how strong they are in PVP versus not. useless tooltips. and then when you find out how something works it is declared a bug and unintentional, so there is no way to really plan for anything, especially via random loot drops and mysterious secondary statting. this entire setup should be obvious and plain to see, and the reason it isn't is because you'd see how ridiculously awful the system is. and our feedback is "you shouldn't be thinking about that" and that "your experience is unfounded."