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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfury View Post
    Now i understand why blizzard has a hard time understanding all the feedback they get. Just about every suggestion made in the above post is terrible


    All the dev words are bullshit. They are able to see the world's best game statistics tools and create shit. I can not figure out why dps between specs in wcl is 20% different. So I get to say to dev every day about class design. Most of their complaints are lost if the spec is playable. But the lack of talent is devaluing the results of other teams. This game is rpg. It takes time for one spec to grow. And the spec is bad? This is where the complaints come from.
    Last edited by Ele man; 2018-10-19 at 08:48 AM.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Ele man View Post
    All the dev words are bullshit. They are able to see the world's best game statistics tools and create shit. I can not figure out why dps between specs in wcl is 20% different. So I get to say to dev every day about class design. Most of their complaints are lost if the spec is playable. But the lack of talent is devaluing the results of other teams. This game is rpg. It takes time for one spec to grow. And the spec is bad? This is where the complaints come from.
    i partially agree here. What bothers me more than anything else is
    -Getting denied because of your class
    -Getting denied because of your spec
    -Getting denied because 'x does more than 'y', so why bring y?'
    -WHY BRING AN ELEMENTAL SHAMAN?

    This is still happening in a game thats basically been out for nearly two decades. They took out totem buffs and class buffs but then put them back in the game again(see 10% stam etc). Some decisions while i understand are to keep things 'fresh' and 'new' as they've said just dont make much sense. For example right now i have a warrior ive been playing as an alt that is fury. What reason should i play fury besides its fun? extra survivability?(that has nothing to do with class fantasy which they claim all the time) Because as it stands arms is better for every single piece of content right now

    ive been in some groups and this is casual btw...that are surprised to see someone still maining and playing an ele through any content. Ive had random players message me and say 'good luck man stick through it' and even 'just reroll man to mage for pvp and pve'. There are fights where literally the tank can do more damage than elemental. You can lie to yourself all you'd like but saying its the skill and not the class is straight up dog crap. The devs have even admitted that they launched BFA with specs not balanced and elemental and shadow were broken specs right now. So how do they expect the community to receive these classes in groups? or do they just now give a flip? 5% bonuses? 15% bonuses that do nothing? Thats what it seems. Or the common answer every shaman hears just about every expansion... wait til "this patch" or "next expansion". Bs /rant

    There is a reason why people are always rerolling because of stupid stuff like what i listed above. Come on now
    Last edited by Rawfury; 2018-10-19 at 01:30 PM.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Rawfury View Post
    i partially agree here. What bothers me more than anything else is
    -Getting denied because of your class
    -Getting denied because of your spec
    -Getting denied because 'x does more than 'y', so why bring y?'
    -WHY BRING AN ELEMENTAL SHAMAN?

    This is still happening in a game thats basically been out for nearly two decades. They took out totem buffs and class buffs but then put them back in the game again(see 10% stam etc). Some decisions while i understand are to keep things 'fresh' and 'new' as they've said just dont make much sense. For example right now i have a warrior ive been playing as an alt that is fury. What reason should i play fury besides its fun? extra survivability?(that has nothing to do with class fantasy which they claim all the time) Because as it stands arms is better for every single piece of content right now

    ive been in some groups and this is casual btw...that are surprised to see someone still maining and playing an ele through any content. Ive had random players message me and say 'good luck man stick through it' and even 'just reroll man to mage for pvp and pve'. There are fights where literally the tank can do more damage than elemental. You can lie to yourself all you'd like but saying its the skill and not the class is straight up dog crap. The devs have even admitted that they launched BFA with specs not balanced and elemental and shadow were broken specs right now. So how do they expect the community to receive these classes in groups? or do they just now give a flip? 5% bonuses? 15% bonuses that do nothing? Thats what it seems. Or the common answer every shaman hears just about every expansion... wait til "this patch" or "next expansion". Bs /rant

    There is a reason why people are always rerolling because of stupid stuff like what i listed above. Come on now
    I honestly doubt the understanding of the number of dev. Every time a dev goes through QA, a serious number of spec problems are poured out.
    It's hard to find other questions. QA team will also be tired. The class designer create the trash and The QA team is affected by these results.
    But users do not understand that the performance gap between specs is so severe. Because you can easily see the statistics.
    The world has evolved and game statistics tools have evolved. The result is wcl, and I can not find a more complete statistical tool.

    They make trash with these advanced statistical tools.
    It is a surprising result that class designers are not fired because there are so many complaints from people.

    People can easily see statistics in wcl, raider.io. They started objectionable protests and class designers can only say wait.
    Let's think about it. Despite these serious differences, Changes over 3 months are 'LB, CL and EQ damage increased by 15%.' is.
    Why does Blizzard boss not fire these employees? This is what happens inside the Blizzard company. I think class designer dev would have reduced 20% of wow sales.

    Class designers released an underperformance ele in the early days of each expansion pack. 'Every time.' This means their lack of ability.
    There was no such result if a more talented person adjusted the number.
    As far as I know, this class designer has already done the same thing with diablo 3. It's totally inadequate.
    But Diablo 3 is fine. Because this game can fundamentally make a character with the investment of 1day.
    But not in wow. It takes a lot of time for the wow character to reach level 120.
    Blizzard also sells at the character level booster. They need more responsibility for performance.
    If 8.1 is also useless ele? We have to change the slogan. 'Fire ele designer'
    Last edited by Ele man; 2018-10-19 at 04:47 PM.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Ele man View Post
    I honestly doubt the understanding of the number of dev. Every time a dev goes through QA, a serious number of spec problems are poured out.
    Here's my take on this, which is a rather longwinded one, but you might gain some insight into the design process:

    The Class designers are next to unreachable from the outside, they live in their own world to a certain degree.
    (A statement that might more sense after reading the stuff down below)

    First off, they are biased.
    This is not just me saying this, but Ghostcrawler said the same thing (more or less) during a LoL AMA back in 2016 regarding Frost mages in Cata.

    You've explained before that back in the days in WoW you wanted to nerf frost mages. How come frost mages were pretty much left untouched for such a long long time? What's the process behind getting something nerfed/buffed like and who has the final word when something gets nerfed/buffed (at Blizzard and Riot Games)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    The less diplomatic answer is that there were a lot of WoW devs who played Frost mages, even though I wasn't one of them, so there were always a lot of people to point out your potential mistakes when you try to make a change.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofleg...kp6/?context=3

    Obviously, things need to be seen in degrees and not just extremes, but you have the Guy that took the heat for bad class design for years saying that the people who have a word to say in class design are biased in favour of the class they play.

    Now, futhermore, take this long blogpost from Xelnath, who was mostly responsible for MoP Warlocks, while most of blogpost is regarding how MoP warlock developed, the introduction holds some neat tidbits regarding Blizzards inner machinations.

    https://xelnath.com/2018/05/15/the-m...ew-you-missed/

    When I spoke with the Warlock designer at the time, who had just been assigned the responsibility of creating the Monk class from scratch – it became apparent that he was burned out trying to keep the identities of Shadow Priest and Warlock unique and overwhelmed with work load with Monk.
    Guess how Monks performed for a good chunk of MoP?
    They were bad and abilities like Storm,Earth and Fire were even added later on to make them work, Monk wasn't exactly good class until late MoP / WoD.

    The WoW class design was regularly under immense pressure – each designer handled 3 or 4 classes. Multiply that with 3 (or 4 specs in the case of Druid) – and there’s only so much time you can commit to solving these kinds of problems.
    You can only guess how the guy responsible for (Elemental / Enhancement) does these days, probably overloaded with work, and if no one of those people above him (which aren't without bias as established above) give any space to design Elemental properly, you get that what we get every expansion - half finished shit.

    Xelnath then proposed to take Warlock design (with GC's approval), then wanted to get help from the community on board, which is apparently not a wanted thing at Blizzard because they have a "Wall of Silence" policy.

    I intended to subvert Blizzard’s wall of silence policy – selecting talented and insightful members of the Warlock community, with whom I had built relationships during my Raid design days, and reveal the full scope of the rework plans from day 0. I believed that in exchange for the risk of having our plans leaked early, the benefit of having direct player feedback and transparency would enable us to pull off this near-impossible task.

    With a look of worry on his face, he put his hand on my shoulder and said: “I believe what you describe is exactly how we should be designing at Blizzard – with steady feedback and input from a group of trusted and respectful players – but this isn’t how we do things right now – only a hand picked group of designers are allowed to reveal that they are designers at Blizzard publically – and if you get outed for it, I cannot protect you from the consequences.”
    You have think about the bolded sentence, that really speaks a lot of about Blizzard as far as their companies design philosophy is concerned.

    Looking for a rational conclusion is simply not possible, classes are bad not because they *just* made a mistake, they are thrown under the bus with full intent.
    Guess what those people that put Elemental into a "low priority" do when the question of buffs is brought up?
    Most likely, "Thumbs down, just a bit, to keep them going...whatever" nothing that could threaten the status quo.

    There either are no people on the class team that care about Dps Shaman, they're not in charge of that or simply aren't given enough room to create anything relevant.

    Just look at what kind of joke Tremor totem is in PvE, you_cannot_tell me that is just an unintentional error, but on the other hand those people hand out 5% phys / magic debuffs to Monks and DH or greenlight a boss that makes two warlocks next to mandatory even on heroic.

    Xelnath also wrote:

    I told him that I understood – and hoped Blizzard would begin to catch up with its competitors and embrace the power of transparent, direct community interaction, such as through Twitter and other media form.
    Guess how that turned out.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2018-10-19 at 06:18 PM.

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemmar View Post
    Well... i wasn't a naysayer, but it doesn't sound very good. But i kind of expected that.

    If they want ele to be the lightning caster, they should remove the fire themes from flame shock and lavaburst and replace them with thundery spells.
    Buffing LB does nothing. It's actually bad for pvp aswell... like anyone is gonna let you cast lightning bolts.

    But, i'm curious about the talent changes.
    Oh please god yes, I mained ele in BC and from the moment they introduced Lavaburst I've hated the playstyle

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    The Class designers are next to unreachable from the outside, they live in their own world to a certain degree.
    I used to write that the designer would always make the ele bad.
    Always looking at the beginning of the expansion pack, I always realize that the early class tendency is surprisingly similar.
    ele is not always good. Do you remember the legion? In the twitch Q & A we shouted "make ele great again" around this time.
    The same was true of WoD. Nowadays ele designer is an expert of underperforming.

    They have applied a lot of nerf to ele in late BfA beta. Can you understand now? Ele designer was worried that the ele of the late beta is strong.
    I can not understand this. This is the propensity of the ele designer. Why? Early strong class is always strong.
    Legion and WoD do not make much difference to the class that the Raid team initially used. The statistics of wcl were similar.

    ele designer can not do simple numeric control so the company can handle hundreds of complaints. Q&A is filled with 'Make my spec right' instead of future-oriented questions. The target is the same every season. It's an 'ele designer'. I think that person is incompetent. Seriously.
    They say they have a lot of work. dev may have to design many specs. Dev have a lot of work?
    blizzard can increase the number of dev. If there is no protest, the status quo continues.
    I do not need to know it, and the place can be filled with hundreds of talented devs who despise the blizzard.
    Last edited by Ele man; 2018-10-20 at 12:10 PM.

  7. #327
    Epic! Alexton's Avatar
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    It's been going on for so long with shaman that i cant believe it would be incompetence. Its probably some economic aspect somewhere.
    Not many people play shaman, or shaman has a playerbase that stick with it so we do it last as we lose the least on having it shitty for another half exp.

    Or its just blatant that people reroll and to do that they have to invest time, and as goblins say.. time is money friend.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Here's my take on this, which is a rather longwinded one, but you might gain some insight into the design process:

    The Class designers are next to unreachable from the outside, they live in their own world to a certain degree.
    (A statement that might more sense after reading the stuff down below)

    First off, they are biased.
    This is not just me saying this, but Ghostcrawler said the same thing (more or less) during a LoL AMA back in 2016 regarding Frost mages in Cata.





    https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofleg...kp6/?context=3

    Obviously, things need to be seen in degrees and not just extremes, but you have the Guy that took the heat for bad class design for years saying that the people who have a word to say in class design are biased in favour of the class they play.

    Now, futhermore, take this long blogpost from Xelnath, who was mostly responsible for MoP Warlocks, while most of blogpost is regarding how MoP warlock developed, the introduction holds some neat tidbits regarding Blizzards inner machinations.

    https://xelnath.com/2018/05/15/the-m...ew-you-missed/



    Guess how Monks performed for a good chunk of MoP?
    They were bad and abilities like Storm,Earth and Fire were even added later on to make them work, Monk wasn't exactly good class until late MoP / WoD.



    You can only guess how the guy responsible for (Elemental / Enhancement) does these days, probably overloaded with work, and if no one of those people above him (which aren't without bias as established above) give any space to design Elemental properly, you get that what we get every expansion - half finished shit.

    Xelnath then proposed to take Warlock design (with GC's approval), then wanted to get help from the community on board, which is apparently not a wanted thing at Blizzard because they have a "Wall of Silence" policy.



    You have think about the bolded sentence, that really speaks a lot of about Blizzard as far as their companies design philosophy is concerned.

    Looking for a rational conclusion is simply not possible, classes are bad not because they *just* made a mistake, they are thrown under the bus with full intent.
    Guess what those people that put Elemental into a "low priority" do when the question of buffs is brought up?
    Most likely, "Thumbs down, just a bit, to keep them going...whatever" nothing that could threaten the status quo.

    There either are no people on the class team that care about Dps Shaman, they're not in charge of that or simply aren't given enough room to create anything relevant.

    Just look at what kind of joke Tremor totem is in PvE, you_cannot_tell me that is just an unintentional error, but on the other hand those people hand out 5% phys / magic debuffs to Monks and DH or greenlight a boss that makes two warlocks next to mandatory even on heroic.

    Xelnath also wrote:



    Guess how that turned out.
    This is a fantastic post and it all lines up with the way things have pretty much always felt in the game for as long as I can remember. The classes/specs that end up not only performing poorly, but also playing poorly tend to stay that way for a very long time. Seeing a laundry list of frequent changes in other specs and only a few "shitty ability's damage has been increased by X%" for others just smells like nearly no care is given. Elemental in particular has been struggling for a very long time and even though it has had brief moments where it has shined, the lackluster effort put forth to make changes has always seemed very blatant to me, as if nobody on the class design team even likes the Shaman as a class at all. I can almost guarantee it's not simply incompetence.

  9. #329
    Keyboard Turner Forblings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    who cares if you do 3% less dps... just play the game and shut up. If you dont like the class mechanic then reroll.
    rofl... thats literally what i said i was gonna do ? ..... reroll... did you even read my post????

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Zan15 View Post
    Geeze you are missing out then bro


    Last night heroic

    1st boss

    Ele - 98% was 12,587 dps
    Rogue - 97% was 12,987 dps


    fed

    Ele - 99% was 19,706
    Rouge - 97% was 19,564






    ele is now keeping up close with melee on st fights....lol


    Should be interesting once things level out to see where they end up in mythic logs. My bet is they will be top 3 ranged.
    Increased mechanics on range should keep them well lower than melee till more groups have the first 3-4 bosses on farm
    Yes, in a perfect ST fight when no one has to move.
    "All that said, the fiery partisan passion that wells up in my heart watching this, it's a Herculean task trying to tamp it down"-Dacien

    Never forget that Trump supporters feel "fiery partisan passion" when an accused rapist is being forced onto the Supreme court. Deplorable to the end.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Forblings View Post
    rofl... thats literally what i said i was gonna do ? ..... reroll... did you even read my post????
    Then shut up and level your new alt.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Packers01 View Post
    Yes, in a perfect ST fight when no one has to move.
    This ^^^

    Not sure why people have such a hard time figuring out the concept. If I don't have to move, I can do quite well on any of the turret casters. The problem is that most of the bosses require a lot of movement.

    This doesn't mean I'm opposed to mechanics with a lot of movement, but at least design the classes to account for it better. Stupid to bring a class that is only good on 1/4 of the bosses...

  13. #333
    Stood in the Fire
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    That's the thing, isn't it? I can top our raid's meters on the Uldir trash if I have a full MS bar and Stormkeeper up when we pull a big group - assuming the RNG gods simile upon me. If none of these things happen and it's not a huge pull, doing more than the tank and the 'everything is on CD' Boomkin is about my speed. The Boomkin is the same - full bars, CDs available - AoE god. Otherwise - junk.

    Same with ST boss fights - as long as there's no movement, and any target switches are predictable and widely spaced, I can do pretty reasonable ST damage. As soon as anything requires me to move, or to break my rotation, my damage tanks. This was a workable design in somewhere like Naxxramus or Molten Core, but we are long past those days.

  14. #334
    Mechagnome imunreal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by notawizard View Post
    If i was the ele dev i'd do this in 8.1:

    1. Double the maelstrom gain from LB and LvB
    2. Make flame shock last 12 seconds and have a 10 seconds cooldown
    3. Make lavaburst spread flame shock in a 8 yards radius with the same duration as the origin flameshock (so if it had 2 seconds remaining it spreads a 2-second flameshock)
    4. Remove auto-critting lavaburst (to make crit rating more valuable...)
    5. Make earthshock always critical strike (...but not THAT valuable, and also reduce RNG somewhat)
    6. Nerf frostshock damage (so elemental wont have an answer for movement fights, further solidifying its place as a turret)

    and then balance the numbers so elemental is top-damage on patchwerk, and middle to low on high-movement fights.

    This would:
    - make elemental the top-tier turret spec
    - make the aoe rotation more interesting and make elemental more about hard hits rather than multi-dotting one by one (you only cast flameshock once every 10 secs)
    - remove some earth shock rng (currently if it always crits you're a god and if you dont crit its a feelsbadman)
    Holy shit that was horrible

  15. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Forblings View Post
    rofl... thats literally what i said i was gonna do ? ..... reroll... did you even read my post????
    Quote Originally Posted by lummiuster View Post
    Then shut up and level your new alt.
    Hey guys, let's stop bickering please. Keep the conversation civil and about the Elemental 8.1 changes.

  16. #336
    I havent played a shaman in a long time but they are always the class in my heart.

    Unfortunately even with all the troubled history shamans had over the past decade it seems that BfA will be (so far) the darkest time for the class.

    The changes are insultingly pathetic and it is painfully obvious no developer at blizzard mains or even play-tests a shaman, because if they did this kind of cr*p design would not even leave alpha testing...
    BfA = Boredom for all...

  17. #337
    Well Surge of Power and SK were nerfed significantly but Icefury was buffed. I have to imagine lava burst is getting a buff to compensate for all the reduced lightning bolt damage now.

  18. #338
    The Insane Puupi's Avatar
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    Surge of Power RNG element is bullshit.

    If 3 is too much, change it to 2 you fuckwads, not 1-3. The spec is way too RNG heavy already.
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  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksej89 View Post
    I havent played a shaman in a long time but they are always the class in my heart.

    Unfortunately even with all the troubled history shamans had over the past decade it seems that BfA will be (so far) the darkest time for the class.

    The changes are insultingly pathetic and it is painfully obvious no developer at blizzard mains or even play-tests a shaman, because if they did this kind of cr*p design would not even leave alpha testing...
    For the record, Ion actually mains a shaman. Although, he plays resto.

  20. #340
    After looking at the 8.1 changes we might as well just reroll. I think im just sick and tired of being sick and tired and i love my spec and class.

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