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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by quizzlemanizzle View Post
    no it just shows your statement was blatantly wrong

    Prot Warrior was never more viable than all shaman specs.

    The fact that there are only 2 tank slots does not change that.
    Facts prove other than what your claiming though. Percentage to Percentage of Tank to DPS; Tanks are actually more used than Ele or Enh on Mythic Ghuun
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    And also Prot Warr just chews off the damage from Thrashes with Shield Block or just Demo Shout + IP
    I was under the impression Warrior and DH have the biggest problem to find enough cooldowns to cover every thrash. Also nowadays people probably have 10 ilvls more and all the defensive azerite traits which wasn't the case during early progression, so nowadays it probably doesn't hit as hard as it did when people were still gearing up.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    You should specify what kind of shaman.
    Resto had a guaranteed raid spot whole Legion, and generally didn't have it bad over the course of years.
    Ele had always scaling issues, it had some good moments in Cata / MOP but that was it.
    Enhance had ups and downs, there were patches it did really competitive raid dps, but was often held back by lack of utility (mobility, immunity) or was only brought for specific buff (MOP stormlash).
    As Shaman player, maybe we should instead of fighting for the "worst one" spot rather focus on who keeps causing these problems.

    Because i think we can agree on one thing: 8.1 is certainly not what was promised, not even close.

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    I was under the impression Warrior and DH have the biggest problem to find enough cooldowns to cover every thrash. Also nowadays people probably have 10 ilvls more and all the defensive azerite traits which wasn't the case during early progression, so nowadays it probably doesn't hit as hard as it did when people were still gearing up.
    There are gaps betweem the thrashes when boss is casting so you can recover your CDs. Most of the time I'm just timing shield block + last stand and barely use shield wall at all.

    Also Demo shout + full IP can eat thrash to the face and I'm still with 30%+ HP left so I use that to recover Shield Block charges and don't waste Last Stand for it

    It also works sub 50% but I'm rather carefull there and call for BoP just in case

  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Prot Warrior has just as much viability as any Shaman Spec. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...pec=Protection

    But that doesn't fit your narrative right? You're making yourself look more and more foolish with every reply.
    In almost three months of Uldir, when everyone outgears the content, yeah, things are going to look a little better. Now, instead of cherry-picking things that make your stupid ideas look less stupid, roll it back two months and see how it pans out for prot warrior.

    But THAT may not fit your narrative. While you think pretty highly of yourself, I don't really give a shit what you think about me. Sorry

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    In almost three months of Uldir, when everyone outgears the content, yeah, things are going to look a little better. Now, instead of cherry-picking things that make your stupid ideas look less stupid, roll it back two months and see how it pans out for prot warrior.

    But THAT may not fit your narrative. While you think pretty highly of yourself, I don't really give a shit what you think about me. Sorry
    As someone already mentioned, there was a Warrior tank in the top 50 kills for Mythic Ghuun. So ya, keep trying to fit a little narrative that's full of bullshit, because that's how Blizzard is gonna listen to you lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Any non monk tank can disappear in 1 second on bosses like fetid, mythrax and ghuun. Have fun taking the 80k shadow damage + 100k melee combo on mythrax if you happen to run out of cd / mitigation for whatever reason, and god forbid you still have the max hp reduction stacks. A monk just drinks ironskin and never has to think how to plan their cds to prevent being 1-shot. If they nerfed stagger by 1,5% as wowhead reports, big fucking whoop. Doesn't really change the fact other tanks have to play well to not die, while monk just needs to press 1 button.

    Tbh monk was still strong when they had to manage guard, expel harm, chi, elusive brew stacks, upkeep shuffle and all that jazz. Especially late MOP it was very good. But at least you actively used abilities to prevent / lower damage. No idea why Blizzard turned it into such a braindead spec.

    Tanks are more "binary" in their role by nature. You are either good enough to do the job, or you aren't. There is some room for min-maxing, but less than in other roles, tanks have higher skill floor and lower skill ceiling than dps. That's why I feel it's important to change the philosophy towards the tanks, make it easier to "just survive" (lower the skill floor, a dead tank is always a bigger issue than a dead dps in a fight), but up the skill ceiling by adding more ways to express skill to increase your dps, lower the damage intake and so on. For example warrior and paladin have some dps cooldowns, but druid or monk have none atm and managing your dps is more of a factor of getting the gear then mashing the buttons. It kinda sucks.
    I don't really think about the mid-tier cheese bosses much, like Fetid. Mythrax is more nuanced because other people in your raid can be a detriment to your survival, while Ghuun is just getting piped by his enormous hits if you're trying to do what a brewmaster does as a non-brewmaster.

    They made it brain-dead easy because nobody played the spec because it was awful to play. A good brewmaster was cool, but a bad brewmaster was the worst possible thing that could happen to your group. Like a dps with agro and less mitigation than a dps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    As someone already mentioned, there was a Warrior tank in the top 50 kills for Mythic Ghuun. So ya, keep trying to fit a little narrative that's full of bullshit, because that's how Blizzard is gonna listen to you lol.
    As someone already mentioned, there are no warriors in the top 50 kills if you're talking about Lalasama and Sense. Neither of them are in the top 50. Maybe if you cut their guild ranks in half then subtracted a little bit more.

    But your narrative is narrating its own narration of its narratived demise. Narrative.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    As someone already mentioned, there are no warriors in the top 50 kills if you're talking about Lalasama and Sense. Neither of them are in the top 50. Maybe if you cut their guild ranks in half then subtracted a little bit more.

    But your narrative is narrating its own narration of its narratived demise. Narrative.
    Top 50 US dumbass. Jeez how fucking hard is it to have some common sense these days. Prot Warrior is just as viable as Ele and Enh Shamans regardless of what you want to chop it down to, from a percentage base more Prot Warriors have tanked the fight than Ele AND Enh have DPS'd it.
    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    Trust me.

    Zyky is better than you.

  9. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    I don't really think about the mid-tier cheese bosses much, like Fetid. Mythrax is more nuanced because other people in your raid can be a detriment to your survival, while Ghuun is just getting piped by his enormous hits if you're trying to do what a brewmaster does as a non-brewmaster.

    They made it brain-dead easy because nobody played the spec because it was awful to play. A good brewmaster was cool, but a bad brewmaster was the worst possible thing that could happen to your group. Like a dps with agro and less mitigation than a dps.
    Even if you compare Brew to Prot Pala (who are percieved as OK tank) Brew is just broken because of stagger mechanic


    ALso the point is, that prot warriors are actually not that bad as people makes them be since they are more than capable of tanking everything in uldir mythic. Hell you don't even know how IP works (as you shown in another thread) which just adds to the bad community perception that plagues Prot warr since Nighthold

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    Even if you compare Brew to Prot Pala (who are percieved as OK tank) Brew is just broken because of stagger mechanic


    ALso the point is, that prot warriors are actually not that bad as people makes them be since they are more than capable of tanking everything in uldir mythic. Hell you don't even know how IP works (as you shown in another thread) which just adds to the bad community perception that plagues Prot warr since Nighthold
    I know how it works, but thanks for the concern. But you: maybe you should know what traits you've got on your gear or "how one number bigger other number".

    Also, the point is that you can crawl 10,000 miles between point A and point B, you can take a car 10,000 miles between point A and point B, or you can take a plane 10,000 miles between point A and point B. Which one is optimal and least-painful?

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    Also, the point is that you can crawl 10,000 miles between point A and point B, you can take a car 10,000 miles between point A and point B, or you can take a plane 10,000 miles between point A and point B. Which one is optimal and least-painful?
    Talk about overexaggerated hyperbole...

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Zyky View Post
    Top 50 US dumbass. Jeez how fucking hard is it to have some common sense these days. Prot Warrior is just as viable as Ele and Enh Shamans regardless of what you want to chop it down to, from a percentage base more Prot Warriors have tanked the fight than Ele AND Enh have DPS'd it.
    Damn, I didn't know that people outside of the US don't matter for the sake of making your round stupid fit in the square hole. My mistake.

    Every shaman spec individually has more M Ghuun representation than Prot warrior though. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the latter part of your post though. Could you clarify?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    Talk about overexaggerated hyperbole...
    That's not hyperbole.............................. Stop using pseudo-intellectual terms if you don't understand how to....... But thanks for avoiding the rest of the post....

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    Damn, I didn't know that people outside of the US don't matter for the sake of making your round stupid fit in the square hole. My mistake.

    Every shaman spec individually has more M Ghuun representation than Prot warrior though. I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the latter part of your post though. Could you clarify?
    You can take 18 shamans in any healer/dps combination...

    you should take arms and fury into that tank equation too

    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    That's not hyperbole.............................. Stop using pseudo-intellectual terms if you don't understand how to....... But thanks for avoiding the rest of the post....
    So you're basically saying that if my warrior gets hit by 100k damage, DK would get hit by 100 damage, healed 200k damage, jumped 10 meters into the air, shoot a firework and eat a chicken wing ?
    Last edited by Zendhal; 2018-11-13 at 07:34 PM.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    As someone already mentioned, there are no warriors in the top 50 kills if you're talking about Lalasama and Sense.
    Can you go ahead and never mention my name again while you spew total garbage? Thanks. I love reading the infinite levels of mental gymnastics people go through to try and justify how bad protection is in their eyes regardless of whether it is true or not. That being said, keep me out of it. Also, if I raided more than 2 days a week I probably would be top 50 .

    Edit: Sense and I weren't even the first prot warriors. 2nd and 3rd behind Floody, so give the man his credit too.
    Last edited by Cylunaria; 2018-11-13 at 08:29 PM.

  15. #335
    I have been playing all the tanks and ignore pain is still one of the best mitigation abilities in the game.
    “If you don't believe me that is too damn bad!”

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I have been playing all the tanks and ignore pain is still one of the best mitigation abilities in the game.
    Can you do that? Just lie on the internet?
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    As Shaman player, maybe we should instead of fighting for the "worst one" spot rather focus on who keeps causing these problems.

    Because i think we can agree on one thing: 8.1 is certainly not what was promised, not even close.
    Don't get me wrong, I think it's bad game design to have "shit specs", I don't think it's anywhere justified to make class suck even if it was OP previous patch or whatever "revenge balancing", and I think gaps between specs should be much, much smaller.

    I always get attacked by some "anti-homogenization" crowd who defend status quo with something that makes me think "all cars are homogenized because they ride on 4 wheels, cars need to be more different, some should have 3 wheels, some 5, some wheels on the rooftop and some triangular ones" - that's the idea of "class balancing in wow", things being different for the sake of being different and then one of these paths trumps all the others, because it's just so much more useful and efficient.

    I really don't want to go back to the times when not every tank had interrupt, heck not every tank had a taunt. Same as I don't agree with having shadow priests and ele shamans sub-par in comparison to other ranged classes, because they don't specialize in anything or what they specialize in never exists in real dungeon or raid environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    They made it brain-dead easy because nobody played the spec because it was awful to play. A good brewmaster was cool, but a bad brewmaster was the worst possible thing that could happen to your group. Like a dps with agro and less mitigation than a dps.
    So they made it so good brewmaster is OP, average brewmaster is still strong, and bad brewmaster is still better than the other tank classes at similar skill level? (Cue the fetid log post on peak of serenity, think you linked it before.) And good brewmasters find the spec boring, because it has very little offensive or defensive management? If the spec isn't fun, the solution is dumb it down and buff to oblivion? That will not make it more fun, but will make people discouraged from playing the classes they enjoyed because why not just grab the bigger hammer.

    Yes, the most dedicated players might stay and hope they have the guilds backing them up instead of pressuring to reroll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zendhal View Post
    Even if you compare Brew to Prot Pala (who are percieved as OK tank) Brew is just broken because of stagger mechanic
    Yes, Warrior / Paladin / DH have exactly the same problem, they have to live in the world where things are balanced around brewmasters that have no gaps in mitigation while the "recharge" tanks do. I don't understand why monk doesn't have any "management" minigame which makes the spec significantly easier to play, and on top of being easier it's also more effective? Supposedly monks are taking more damage than other tanks because they don't reduce it, they take it back with the stagger dot, but who cares, celestial fortune ensures you don't really need more hps to keep a monk alive than other tanks.

    And one thing that would lower the issue would be significantly upping stamina pool of tanks, so every tank class "time to die" goes up, you don't die in 1 blunder but if you constantly fuck up, you become a visible mana sponge. That would also help with rng like whether you chain block / crit block or you don't. If any ability scaling with max hp got broken in the process, you either lower the coefficient or you make it scale with ap instead.

    But something I learned today from the logs you linked is apparently you can parry essence shear on Mythrax... Also it seems this is one boss where spell reflect is actually good because you have it reliably for every shear. Contrary to for example m+ problem where it can go away immediately after reflecting a minor spell and drop the 35% magic damage reduction effect.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    I have been playing all the tanks and ignore pain is still one of the best mitigation abilities in the game.
    Early Legion sure, but ever since it was butchered it's become a joke.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    I always get attacked by some "anti-homogenization" crowd who defend status quo with something that makes me think "all cars are homogenized because they ride on 4 wheels, cars need to be more different, some should have 3 wheels, some 5, some wheels on the rooftop and some triangular ones" - that's the idea of "class balancing in wow", things being different for the sake of being different and then one of these paths trumps all the others, because it's just so much more useful and efficient.
    I don't think the philosophy is neccessarily at fault, the issue is the execution.

    The Powerlevel of certain classes / specs (Havoc DH or Rogue) is simply far too high.

    Blizzard loves to repeat their new mantra of strength and weaknesses, but then you have the game director outright admitting that Dps Shaman has no strengths whatsoever, whereas others have no significant weaknesses.

    But i fully agree on the status quo, Blizzard is far too afraid for any significant balance changes even with new expansions it seems, or they just are too biased by themselves to realize that in no way you could put Havoc DH next to Enhancement and call it "balanced" (at least as far as PvE is concerned).

    "Look man, Enhancement has Bloodlust, freaking Bloodlust, man, that's soo much more stronger than this 5% debuff which is useless anyway if you have a Vengeance Tank, man"

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    I really don't want to go back to the times when not every tank had interrupt, heck not every tank had a taunt.
    While i agree on the taunt thing, i am bit on other side on the interrupt thing.

    Taunts are something that a tank should have, as no one else can seriously bring that, even tools like MD or Tricks of the Trade aren't a proper substitute for a simple taunt, as the Tank is the only person who knows which mobs must be taunted.

    However, Interrupts are different (in my opinion) because the end result is the same, whether a Rogue or Tank interrupted a certain mob makes no difference, the cast got interrupted, that reinforces the idea of group interaction and relying on other people to do their job.

    A person with an interrupt should be aware of that casts need to be interrupted or that certain casts are a lot more dangerous than others, similiar as anyone with a dispel has to understand which debuffs are important to dispel.

    If i (Shaman) and my Tank have a curse that increases damage taken, which should i dispel first?
    I'd be an idiot if choose myself over the Tank in a regular situation.

    I think Interrupts are one of those tools that have led to a great part homogenization because everyone wanted to have those (and got them), to me it was a cool advantage of the Warrior Tank that they had their own solid interrupt, unlike Paladin or Druid who had to jump through loops to interrupt (Feral Charge / Avengers shield).
    No Warrior Tank? Okay, maybe invite a Rogue or Shaman to have (more) interrupts, end result is the same as long as the Dps have a clue.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2018-11-14 at 04:41 PM.

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