Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Kyphael]

I thought this was an interesting comment. I had almost the exact opposite reaction to this film. Going in, with zero spoilers, I can honestly say I was kind of worried about this movie. The only thing I knew was that it had a 3 hour runtime and that, obviously, the heroes were going to win.

I was worried then that this was going to be a very bland film, in comparison to Infinity War which had been so interesting. Obviously this was going to start with the same tone as IW ended, with everyone sad and everything grim, and it was going to have to end with some sort of big battle with Thanos because that's the only satisfying way to conclude it.... but the middle 2 hours of the film? What was that going to be? I was worried how they were going to fill that time. Was it going to be hours of them hunting new random minions of Thanos and killing them to hunt him down? Was Thanos going to change his mind and come out of retirement to come wage war on them again? I hated those ideas.

So when I saw the film finally and what they decided to do with it, I was pleasantly surprised. Act 2 of this movie is some of the most outright fun and laughs I've ever had watching an MCU film, and the amount of fan service, references and opportunity for closure that this brings was amazing. Fuck, this movie even made me care about Thor: The Dark World. That's a feat in itself.

Worrying about the science of time travel and the consequences of that isn't the point in this movie. Maybe they can explore stuff like THAT later (Kang, anyone?) and that's fine. For a self-contained movie and the conclusion of Tony & Cap's story... I was very satisfied we got to have a good time and not a generic film that somehow stretched getting over their grumpiness and going on a hunt for Thanos and then killing him into a 3 hour movie.

Interesting way to look at and appreciate what they did. Different for sure. How else would they have gotten some of the major, and in some cases, emotional interactions? One with Tony and you know who particularly comes to mind. Prof. Hulk in 2012 was also priceless. But other than the shining moments, a lot of it was unnecessary banter (re-explaining infinity stones, Rocket and Thor so much), I felt like if this wasn't their blowout movie, that they could have easily trimmed about 40 minutes to make it a tighter movie like Infinity War, but given it was the big finale, it was like they were stretching it or filling a sausage to make that 3 hour run time. I enjoyed it for what it is, the concluding arcs were great, but I truly from Marvel expected them to go big. I expected Return of the King, not necessarily Thanos not being crippled by the aftershock of what he did, but perhaps a different villain somewhat loosely tied to Thanos to bring the fight to the Avengers while they figured things out, I don't know. There is a whole lot else they could have done. This is just my personal opinion, it was a good satisfying film, just fell short of being bigger than IW which I find odd.

[Ragedaug]

I can say that this is a very strong movie. Action is not so much, but the story of Iron Man and Captain America ended beautifully

I would tend to agree. They did a great job telling Iron Man's and Captain America's stories, probably as good a job anyone could have done. On the other hand I thought they did equally as poor a job on Thor and Hulk's story. It felt like Thor and Hulk character arcs had to be scarified to make way to build up Iron Man and Cap as much as possible. As someone who has been a long time fan of Hulk and Thor, but never cared much for Iron Man and Captain America, it was a little disappointing. I really enjoyed the movie overall, just wish they had done a better job for both of those characters.

[uopayroll]

Finally saw it this weekend and I thought they should of ended the previous movie at the part where they cut of Thanos' head and started this one at that point.

[Kyphael]

Finally saw it this weekend and I thought they should of ended the previous movie at the part where they cut of Thanos' head and started this one at that point.

Interesting. In retrospect, they could have ended Infinity War there, but with the original Avengers being dusted instead, and just keeping alive whoever was signed on to continue doing movies. But that would have been way too gruesome and sudden final fate for Captain, Iron Man and Natasha, I guess.

[tyrlaan]

Going back to the first post I made about time travel, this whole discussion sums up the reason it's a problem. Instead of discussing the movie, we are discussing time travel and either rationalizing it or critiquing it. Probably will never get everyone to agree on how it "should" work. And in the end, it just distracts from the story instead of enhancing it.

I disagree. It's one of the things I find myself discussing. And we really can't extrapolate that what happens on MMO-C forums applies on a grander scale. Many folks I've spoken with outside of this forum thread are content to handwave away the nuances of how the time travel worked.

I would tend to agree. They did a great job telling Iron Man's and Captain America's stories, probably as good a job anyone could have done. On the other hand I thought they did equally as poor a job on Thor and Hulk's story. It felt like Thor and Hulk character arcs had to be scarified to make way to build up Iron Man and Cap as much as possible. As someone who has been a long time fan of Hulk and Thor, but never cared much for Iron Man and Captain America, it was a little disappointing. I really enjoyed the movie overall, just wish they had done a better job for both of those characters.

Kind agree with you on this. I like all four of those characters, but Thor and Hulk were not done justice.

Hulk was relatively fine I guess, but I would have liked his character development to have been on screen instead of off camera.

Thor bugged me a lot until I had time to reflect on it a bit. Ultimately I found it to be a mixed bag.

A big part of movie is about how the characters handle the grief/trauma from losing to Thanos in IW. Each of them handled it different, which includes Thor, who decided to hole up in a room playing video games and drink the painful memories away. And that part was fine. I'm even okay with him putting on the weight, especially since he still suits up and kicks ass at the end without magically becoming trim again or anything.

The part that bothered me is how many jokes were made at his expense. The film didn't need a "prop" for cheap jokes (fat or otherwise), but more importantly, these people are all supposed to care about each other. We see Cap talk to Nat about her struggles, etc. But Thor? Everyone just makes fun of him. He's going through the same shit as everyone else, just expressing it differently. It just makes the Avengers look like they're shitty friends to Thor.

[Cattleya]

I would tend to agree. They did a great job telling Iron Man's and Captain America's stories, probably as good a job anyone could have done. On the other hand I thought they did equally as poor a job on Thor and Hulk's story. It felt like Thor and Hulk character arcs had to be scarified to make way to build up Iron Man and Cap as much as possible. As someone who has been a long time fan of Hulk and Thor, but never cared much for Iron Man and Captain America, it was a little disappointing. I really enjoyed the movie overall, just wish they had done a better job for both of those characters.

The probable reason for this is that Hulk and Thor aren't done in the MCU, Iron Man and Cap America are.

[SirBeef]

There is no way to square everything being "corrected" in other schism worlds with - for example - Thanos, Gamora and Nebula being missing in 2014-B. Replacing the Power Stone does not fix that. Alternatively, Steve exists for decades in a 1945-B schism world that had absolutely nothing to do with the Infinity Stones, then returned to 2019-A.

Swinton's dialogue is a prosaic way of saying "We need the Time Stone to remain here or in five years we'll all die to Dormammu's invasion". Clearly the Infinity Stone do not literally "create... the flow of time" otherwise causality would have been destroyed as soon as Thanos erased the gems.

That's only if you apply other fictional portrayals of time travel. All splintered timelines exist and then cease to exist when the stones are removed and then replaced at the same moment they were taken. So, once Cap returned the stones all spits were erased.

[Cattleya]

That's only if you apply other fictional portrayals of time travel. All splintered timelines exist and then cease to exist when the stones are removed and then replaced at the same moment they were taken. So, once Cap returned the stones all spits were erased.

No, the point of returning the stones was just so that the alternate timelines they took the stones from aren't completely screwed, turning into a "dark" timeline (as the ancient one visually emphasized as well). That timeline where Loki gets away with the tesseract in NYC 2012 still exists, but because Cap returns the time stone and the mind stone, it's not completely screwed.

(edit: spoiler tagged, didn't realise the 30th of may thing)

[tyrlaan]

That's only if you apply other fictional portrayals of time travel. All splintered timelines exist and then cease to exist when the stones are removed and then replaced at the same moment they were taken. So, once Cap returned the stones all spits were erased.

No, the point of returning the stones was just so that the alternate timelines they took the stones from aren't completely screwed, turning into a "dark" timeline (as the ancient one visually emphasized as well). That timeline where Loki gets away with the tesseract in NYC 2012 still exists, but because Cap returns the time stone and the mind stone, it's not completely screwed.

Don't think either is quite right tbh.

My understanding is that returning the stones back to the "exact" place/time they were swiped from wipes out any alternate timelines that were created. However, one can make solid arguments for just about each time jump that the alternate timelines created by those jumps endured enough change that returning the stones couldn't possibly have undone everything. It's almost certainly true that there are at least alternate timelines where Loki escaped after the battle in NYC, Thanos and his army winked out of existence in 2014, Steve Rogers lived his life with Peggy.

A lot depends on both how precise "exact" needs to be and how much a given stone can "undo". Because you can easily argue that all sorts of alternate timelines were created.

[Kellorion]

Can someone PM me the answer to this please: I havent seen Antman/Wasp nor Captain Marvel, but im going to go see Endgame this week. How necessary is it to see those 2 first. Please and thx. And No Spoilers.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

On Black Widow:
Her death is poetically in tone with nature. When a spider spins its eggsac its organs begin to break down and when the young hatch they feed on the dead corpse for nutrients. In this perspective Natasha, the Spider, sacrifices herself for the soul stone so her family (The Avengers) and the half of life may thrive. And they did. Her corpse opened the doorway to their survival. Essentially they fed on her sacrifice to live.

[Jotaux]

Can someone PM me the answer to this please: I havent seen Antman/Wasp nor Captain Marvel, but im going to go see Endgame this week. How necessary is it to see those 2 first. Please and thx. And No Spoilers.

Not really that necessary, you only really need to see the end credits scene of Ant-man and the Wasp. There's a small joke you might miss, most people I know missed it even with seeing all the movies but nothing major.

[Kyphael]

I disagree. It's one of the things I find myself discussing. And we really can't extrapolate that what happens on MMO-C forums applies on a grander scale. Many folks I've spoken with outside of this forum thread are content to handwave away the nuances of how the time travel worked.



Kind agree with you on this. I like all four of those characters, but Thor and Hulk were not done justice.

Hulk was relatively fine I guess, but I would have liked his character development to have been on screen instead of off camera.

Thor bugged me a lot until I had time to reflect on it a bit. Ultimately I found it to be a mixed bag.

A big part of movie is about how the characters handle the grief/trauma from losing to Thanos in IW. Each of them handled it different, which includes Thor, who decided to hole up in a room playing video games and drink the painful memories away. And that part was fine. I'm even okay with him putting on the weight, especially since he still suits up and kicks ass at the end without magically becoming trim again or anything.

The part that bothered me is how many jokes were made at his expense. The film didn't need a "prop" for cheap jokes (fat or otherwise), but more importantly, these people are all supposed to care about each other. We see Cap talk to Nat about her struggles, etc. But Thor? Everyone just makes fun of him. He's going through the same shit as everyone else, just expressing it differently. It just makes the Avengers look like they're shitty friends to Thor.

Hadn't thought of that, pretty good point on how they treated Thor. Hulk seemed to be the only one to give a shit and Cap was just neutral but everyone ridiculed him every chance they could get. Just shows Marvel doesn't know how to do drama all the way. One third of the film is dedicated to melancholy and it just hit me how much that kind of cheapens it all. It's no different than if they were calling Clint a murderer all the time.

[RobertoCarlos]

On Black Widow:
Her death is poetically in tone with nature. When a spider spins its eggsac its organs begin to break down and when the young hatch they feed on the dead corpse for nutrients. In this perspective Natasha, the Spider, sacrifices herself for the soul stone so her family (The Avengers) and the half of life may thrive. And they did. Her corpse opened the doorway to their survival. Essentially they fed on her sacrifice to live.

Yeah thats cool and all but the character never did anything other than look hot and have a pointless romance subplot with Bruce.

Would have been like if they killed Hawkeye. The characters have been wasted this far. They need the thor rework treatment which hawkeye is starting to get now

[tmamass]

The part that bothered me is how many jokes were made at Thors expense. The film didn't need a "prop" for cheap jokes (fat or otherwise), but more importantly, these people are all supposed to care about each other. We see Cap talk to Nat about her struggles, etc. But Thor? Everyone just makes fun of him. He's going through the same shit as everyone else, just expressing it differently. It just makes the Avengers look like they're shitty friends to Thor.[/spoiler]

Did the "LANGUAGE!" jokes in AOU bother you too?... this is exactly the same
sad to see that so many people in this thread cant enjoy a good movie of a kind you wont see ever again....

[tyrlaan]

Did the "LANGUAGE!" jokes in AOU bother you too?... this is exactly the same
sad to see that so many people in this thread cant enjoy a good movie of a kind you wont see ever again....

A) I enjoyed the crap out of Endgame and give it a 9/10.
B) If you think the "language" joke is the same as mocking how someone grapples with grief/anguish, you have more important things to do than post on the MMO-C forum.

[Skulltaker]

Can someone PM me the answer to this please: I havent seen Antman/Wasp nor Captain Marvel, but im going to go see Endgame this week. How necessary is it to see those 2 first. Please and thx. And No Spoilers.

In case noone answered: You should read a summary of Ant Man and the Wasp if you don't manage to see the movie befor you see endgame. Captain Marvel is all but negligable, just watch the post credit scene on youtube, it's all you need.

[Mahourai]

That's only if you apply other fictional portrayals of time travel. All splintered timelines exist and then cease to exist when the stones are removed and then replaced at the same moment they were taken. So, once Cap returned the stones all spits were erased.

The idea that schism timelines are only produced by the Stones' removal is not supported. 1945-B has nothing to do with the Infinity Stones at all, yet it plainly exists (not to rely on extra-diegetic material but the directors have already had to clear this up). This refutes any idea that schism worlds are purely created by the removal of Infinity Stones, a theory which would mean the main world is itself a schismatic doomed timeline as the Stones have been "removed" via their destruction. The Ancient One's speech does not lead to the conclusion that the only thing that splits timelines is an Infinity Stone's removal or that replacing them will erase the schism world.

[Aurrora]

That's only if you apply other fictional portrayals of time travel. All splintered timelines exist and then cease to exist when the stones are removed and then replaced at the same moment they were taken. So, once Cap returned the stones all spits were erased.

Returning the stones wasn't to stop a branching timeline. Timelines branched the moment they time traveled.

Returning the stones was about not causing those branches of the timeline to suffer the same consequences of the stones being missing that the main timeline is currently facing. They tease it at the beginning of the film during the conference call: "What's happening on Earth is happening across the universe, on thousands of worlds."

[Ragedaug]

No, the point of returning the stones was just so that the alternate timelines they took the stones from aren't completely screwed, turning into a "dark" timeline (as the ancient one visually emphasized as well). That timeline where Loki gets away with the tesseract in NYC 2012 still exists, but because Cap returns the time stone and the mind stone, it's not completely screwed.

(edit: spoiler tagged, didn't realize the 30th of may thing)

This seems like it would just mean there's an additional time fork where they didn't have it. The first branch was created when they took the stone, then another branch is created when they brought the stone back. The first fork is still completely screwed, but we are supposed to be happy because they don't mention that fork, so we get to not think about it, then we can just think about the new fork that has the stone again.

- - - Updated - - -

Returning the stones wasn't to stop a branching timeline. Timelines branched the moment they time traveled.

Returning the stones was about not causing those branches of the timeline to suffer the same consequences of the stones being missing that the main timeline is currently facing. They tease it at the beginning of the film during the conference call: "What's happening on Earth is happening across the universe, on thousands of worlds."

You don't "fix a branch". In branch time theory, you create a new one. The broken branch is still broken. Again, this is why TT gets so messy. To have a satisfying story you have to employ multiple TT theories to create a satisfying ending. If you could fix a branch by altering it, you wouldn't have created the branch to start with, you would have just altered the prime/only timeline.