Avengers: Endgame (2019)

[Gaidax]

I think it was a good movie all in all.

[lollerlaban]

That's... tricky though. Because Dr Strange died in Infinity War. Could he see beyond this "temporary death" ?

Spoiler: 

That's the tricky part because he's not really dead since he gets brought back to life. The reason he gives away the stone and perplexes the Ancient one is most likely since its the only scenario where they win as mentioned in IW, is where he do so.

He could just be seeing up until his point where dies, then continues from when he gets resurrected

[Svifnymr]

Thats true, and maybe then the defenders might appear in one of the movies since theyll belong to disney, i dunno.

The (current) Defenders are as dead as the (current) Xmen.

[Skroe]

I don't get how people didn't see the ending, or a version of it, coming from a mile away, and are thus upset about it.

I always thought that the snap would be reversed with Captain America doing it, and in the process killing him (or getting lost in time). I thought Tony Stark would live and continue to advise the Avengers to carry on Capt's legacy, but otherwise retire. The movie did it the opposite way, which is actually better. Capt should get his happy ending. And Iron Man saved the universe.

But there was no version of this where the Avengers were going to walk away in in tact. Most of the Avengers actors have been shooting back to back, and done little more than Avengers movies, since the filming of Captain America: Winter Soldier. Asking for another 7 years of people's lives wasn't realistically a thing.

It was a great movie, but losing the two faces of the franchise is going to be difficult to recover from. Brie Larson did a fine job in Captain Marvel (which was filmed after Endgame) but isn't another Chris Evans. Benedict Cumberbatch is a great actor, but not as constantly entertaining as RDJ. But to Marvel's credit, they fell into RDJ and Chris Evans. RDJ was a big risk for the first Iron Man (and was uninsurable or something). When Chris Evans was announced as Captain America, most people groaned and said "Human Torch... really?". Warner/DC tried to astroturf their superhero line up with Ben Affleck being the RDJ-esque front man for the group, and that didn't work at all (despite Affleck not being the problem).

Whatever Phase 4 is going to be, it's going to have to be really different. If I were Marvel, I'd get to work on the Fantastic Four, real fast, and think hard about your Mr. Fantastic.

[Depakote]

I'm confused as to how they can bring back Gamora from an alternate universe and there be no ramifications there but cannot bring back Iron Man, Cpt. America or Black Widow. Also fail to see how Dr. Strange willingly giving Thanos the Time Stone played into any of the story. Don't understand how Captain Marvel was suggested to be so central to beating Thanos but barely showed up for any of the movie.

[Svifnymr]

I don't get how people didn't see the ending, or a version of it, coming from a mile away, and are thus upset about it.

I think the main thing I'm surprised is that there is a "5 years later". I don't understand jumping to 2023 and still doing new movies like that going forward. The only surprise for me was I'd pegged Cap America as the Black Widow, but meh.

This ending just seems to kick the MCU to the side for the next stage.

[Snuffleupagus]

Also fail to see how Dr. Strange willingly giving Thanos the Time Stone played into any of the story.

He specifically said to Thanos "Spare his life, and I will give you the Time Stone" in reference to Tony, who ended up defeating Thanos.

[Espo]

He specifically said to Thanos "Spare his life, and I will give you the Time Stone" in reference to Tony, who ended up defeating Thanos.

This. And he specifically said he saw all of the possible outcomes, meaning he saw all of the possible chains of events that occurred. The one winning scenario had him giving up the time stone, along with all of the chain of events that occurred afterward. We don't necessarily need to understand why, but know that Dr. Strange knows the exact outcome of events that need to occur to win. There may seem like there's an easier road to travel to victory, but there is not--because that was the only possible chain of events that won.

[dacoolist]

I'm happy with who was killed off - I'm happy with who lived - I'm happy how it was capping off 11 years of films in a single literal end point - and I'm super happy it made more money than any movie ever for an opening weekend and by far SMASHING that 14% above that disliked the film into pieces ;D

- - - Updated - - -

I don't get how people didn't see the ending, or a version of it, coming from a mile away, and are thus upset about it.

I always thought that the snap would be reversed with Captain America doing it, and in the process killing him (or getting lost in time). I thought Tony Stark would live and continue to advise the Avengers to carry on Capt's legacy, but otherwise retire. The movie did it the opposite way, which is actually better. Capt should get his happy ending. And Iron Man saved the universe.

But there was no version of this where the Avengers were going to walk away in in tact. Most of the Avengers actors have been shooting back to back, and done little more than Avengers movies, since the filming of Captain America: Winter Soldier. Asking for another 7 years of people's lives wasn't realistically a thing.

It was a great movie, but losing the two faces of the franchise is going to be difficult to recover from. Brie Larson did a fine job in Captain Marvel (which was filmed after Endgame) but isn't another Chris Evans. Benedict Cumberbatch is a great actor, but not as constantly entertaining as RDJ. But to Marvel's credit, they fell into RDJ and Chris Evans. RDJ was a big risk for the first Iron Man (and was uninsurable or something). When Chris Evans was announced as Captain America, most people groaned and said "Human Torch... really?". Warner/DC tried to astroturf their superhero line up with Ben Affleck being the RDJ-esque front man for the group, and that didn't work at all (despite Affleck not being the problem).

Whatever Phase 4 is going to be, it's going to have to be really different. If I were Marvel, I'd get to work on the Fantastic Four, real fast, and think hard about your Mr. Fantastic.

Holy shit I thought you were BANNED - Welcome back Skroesec! Hope the guilds doing well and all that *waves from old Lothar server back like ten years ago*

[Al Gorefiend]

I don't get how people didn't see the ending, or a version of it, coming from a mile away, and are thus upset about it.

I always thought that the snap would be reversed with Captain America doing it, and in the process killing him (or getting lost in time). I thought Tony Stark would live and continue to advise the Avengers to carry on Capt's legacy, but otherwise retire. The movie did it the opposite way, which is actually better. Capt should get his happy ending. And Iron Man saved the universe.

But there was no version of this where the Avengers were going to walk away in in tact. Most of the Avengers actors have been shooting back to back, and done little more than Avengers movies, since the filming of Captain America: Winter Soldier. Asking for another 7 years of people's lives wasn't realistically a thing.

It was a great movie, but losing the two faces of the franchise is going to be difficult to recover from. Brie Larson did a fine job in Captain Marvel (which was filmed after Endgame) but isn't another Chris Evans. Benedict Cumberbatch is a great actor, but not as constantly entertaining as RDJ. But to Marvel's credit, they fell into RDJ and Chris Evans. RDJ was a big risk for the first Iron Man (and was uninsurable or something). When Chris Evans was announced as Captain America, most people groaned and said "Human Torch... really?". Warner/DC tried to astroturf their superhero line up with Ben Affleck being the RDJ-esque front man for the group, and that didn't work at all (despite Affleck not being the problem).

Whatever Phase 4 is going to be, it's going to have to be really different. If I were Marvel, I'd get to work on the Fantastic Four, real fast, and think hard about your Mr. Fantastic.

The reason it was Tony and not Cap is exactly what you said in the first sentence of your first paragraph.

Because Cap died to Thanos in the Infinity War comics is why everyone thought he would die. In fact everyone thought he would have died in Civil War, and survived because they wanted to save his death for Thanos.

Everyone thought it was going to be Cap, which is why it didn’t happen. The directors wanted the suspense and nobody was to see it coming.

[Depakote]

This. And he specifically said he saw all of the possible outcomes, meaning he saw all of the possible chains of events that occurred. The one winning scenario had him giving up the time stone, along with all of the chain of events that occurred afterward. We don't necessarily need to understand why, but know that Dr. Strange knows the exact outcome of events that need to occur to win. There may seem like there's an easier road to travel to victory, but there is not--because that was the only possible chain of events that won.

Maybe but it's still a huge plot hole. Do you have any explanation as to how Gamora coming back from 2014 is somehow ok but bringing back Black Widow isn't?

[Fabinas]

Maybe but it's still a huge plot hole. Do you have any explanation as to how Gamora coming back from 2014 is somehow ok but bringing back Black Widow isn't?

Gamora from 2014 came with Thanos. Noone brought Black Widow from the past. Gamora from Infinity War and Black Widow from Endgame are forever lost, as such is the price to obtain the Soul Gem.

[Espo]

Maybe but it's still a huge plot hole. Do you have any explanation as to how Gamora coming back from 2014 is somehow ok but bringing back Black Widow isn't?

It isn't a plot hole at all. Dr. Strange saw every single outcome. He knew that, in the winning outcome, he had to give up the time stone. The only thing that matters is it had to happen, otherwise Dr. Strange would not have done it. He knew the ripple effect of all actions. Nothing else matters. We can think it's a plot hole or think there was a better way to do it, but there wasn't because Dr. Strange saw every single outcome and knew this was the only way.

On Gamora: This is totally apples and oranges. Gamora came back with Thanos in an effort to stop him, without any help from the existing Avengers and without knowing the potential consequences of her actions. And she was subsequently snapped right back to her reality by Tony, so she isn't there anyway. The Avengers wouldn't want her coming back because they know the consequences to her timeline that this would cause.

Black Widow coming back would have involved the Avengers specifically going into another timeline to find her, which would have completely ruined that timeline because she is necessary to that timeline's success. They would not do such a thing. It's the same logic as to why they made it a priority to return the infinity stones--to not disrupt the alternate realities they took them from.

[Depakote]

It isn't a plot hole at all. Dr. Strange saw every single outcome. He knew that, in the winning outcome, he had to give up the time stone. The only thing that matters is it had to happen, otherwise Dr. Strange would not have done it. He knew the ripple effect of all actions. Nothing else matters. We can think it's a plot hole or think there was a better way to do it, but there wasn't because Dr. Strange saw every single outcome and knew this was the only way.

On Gamora: This is totally apples and oranges. Gamora came back with Thanos in an effort to stop him, without any help from the existing Avengers and without knowing the potential consequences of her actions. And she was subsequently snapped right back to her reality by Tony, so she isn't there anyway. The Avengers wouldn't want her coming back because they know the consequences to her timeline that this would cause.

Black Widow coming back would have involved the Avengers specifically going into another timeline to find her, which would have completely ruined that timeline because she is necessary to that timeline's success. They would not do such a thing. It's the same logic as to why they made it a priority to return the infinity stones--to not disrupt the alternate realities they took them from.

Who's to say they could't go back in their own timeline and retrieve Black Widow from before she died to get the Soul Stone?

[Espo]

Who's to say they could't go back in their own timeline and retrieve Black Widow from before she died to get the Soul Stone?

Pretty sure they established that they can't go backwards in their existing timeline. It's done. Not to mention the paradox that would create even if they did.

Listen, I'm not going to sit here and say they flawlessly nailed time travel or numerous other things in this movie, because they didn't. But the two specific examples you mentioned aren't really flaws in the movie (from a feasibility/execution perspective--if you just didn't like them then that's your opinion of course). I'd recommend just trying to enjoy the movie for what it is, and not try to scientifically tear it down (you'll undoubtedly succeed somewhere).

[tyrlaan]

I'm confused as to how they can bring back Gamora from an alternate universe and there be no ramifications there but cannot bring back Iron Man, Cpt. America or Black Widow.

Well they arguably could but they wouldn't be the same person. The Gamora now stuck in the main timeline has had zero of the experiences from GotG1 onwards, which is some significant stuff. And she's not the Gamora the Thanos betrayed.

The same all would apply to any character swiped from an alternate timeline. Another Tony is going to be a different person. You're not "saving" Tony, you're just pulling in a replacement to fill your own void left as a result of his passing.

Don't understand how Captain Marvel was suggested to be so central to beating Thanos but barely showed up for any of the movie.

Pretty sure this was mostly invented by seething nerd rage rather than ever actually stated in any official capacity.

I'm happy with who was killed off - I'm happy with who lived - I'm happy how it was capping off 11 years of films in a single literal end point - and I'm super happy it made more money than any movie ever for an opening weekend and by far SMASHING that 14% above that disliked the film into pieces ;D

*smiles as he thinks about earlier posters claiming "this is TLJ all over again!"*

[Lexia]

I saw a bunch of comments about some scene in the film with all the women posing together and I don't even remember seeing it, so it surely didn't make me bat an eye.

I loved said scene. At the same time, I groaned that the incels were going to lose their minds over it.

[Shadowferal]

*smiles as he thinks about earlier posters claiming "this is TLJ all over again!"*

We all knew it was going to make money...people throw money at shit all the time.

[seleri]

Loved it. It was a good ending to the Infinity Saga, but it wasn't perfect.

My only real complaint though is Steve going back in time to live with Peggy since I feel it invalidates Peggy's journey and does more harm than good to both their characters, but I choose to believe that instead of somehow going back in the main timeline he just lived that happy life in an alternate timeline and continued to help the world by helping Peggy with SHIELD instead of sitting back in retirement watching terrible things happen "because they needed to" instead of helping prevent them. Then when Peggy died in that timeline and things were in order, he came back to the main timeline to see his original friends and pass the mantle on to Sam. It opens up its own problems but to me it's much more satisfying than time traveling Steve being Peggy's husband in the main timeline all along.

[PACOX]

I'm confused as to how they can bring back Gamora from an alternate universe and there be no ramifications there but cannot bring back Iron Man, Cpt. America or Black Widow. Also fail to see how Dr. Strange willingly giving Thanos the Time Stone played into any of the story. Don't understand how Captain Marvel was suggested to be so central to beating Thanos but barely showed up for any of the movie.

They could bring back a Black Widow be it wouldn't be the one that died. They could bring back a Tony but it wouldn't be the same one that died.

Dr Strange gives up the time stone because he saw the one possibility where Thanos was foiled. Know who had to live for that future to exist? Tony. If Strange didn't give up the stone, Tony dies, GG.