Poll: Did you enjoy watching the movie AVENGERS: ENDGAME™

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  1. #1561
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    We all knew it was going to make money...people throw money at shit all the time.
    You've made it repeatedly clear that you can't stand most, if not all, Marvel movies so I'm not sure why you're even in this conversation in the first place tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by seleri View Post
    Loved it. It was a good ending to the Infinity Saga, but it wasn't perfect.

    My only real complaint though is Steve going back in time to live with Peggy since I feel it invalidates Peggy's journey and does more harm than good to both their characters, but I choose to believe that instead of somehow going back in the main timeline he just lived that happy life in an alternate timeline and continued to help the world by helping Peggy with SHIELD instead of sitting back in retirement watching terrible things happen "because they needed to" instead of helping prevent them. Then when Peggy died in that timeline and things were in order, he came back to the main timeline to see his original friends and pass the mantle on to Sam. It opens up its own problems but to me it's much more satisfying than time traveling Steve being Peggy's husband in the main timeline all along.
    Yeah, that part is problematic. My take - is much like yours. I've read compelling arguments that he went into the past because it was always going to happen, but that calls into question, for me, all the other time travel moments in the film. So I see it like you do, it had to be an alternate timeline created when he chose to stay in the past with Peggy. One thing that supports this is that he has a shield to give to Sam. This also suggests that he did Capt America stuff in the alternate timeline.

    What breaks things for me is that I feel like he should have returned on the time travel pad. I've since heard an explanation that if in the alternate timeline he still did the superhero thing, it's simple enough to assume that alternate timeline also had its assortment of geniuses, one of which could have sorted out how to get him back to the main timeline. I suppose that's possible, but I think perhaps a bit more explanation around the entire scene would have been good.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    That’s Banner’s contention, but I’m not sure I trust him all things considered.
    Stark didn't refute it and Endgame isn't Inception. The movie isn't out to trick you or make you ponder it's ending forever. From a meta perspective, the audience should assume Hulk is accurately laying out the rules of time travel, barring notable evidence to suggest he's got it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by D3cadent View Post
    After Peggy dies, "Our Cap" comes back to the Endgame movie timeline, post thanos' defeat. He does this in the exact same way all the other characters returned to this timeline pre-thanos' defeat except now "Our Cap" has aged considerably because he didn't just spend a few hours gathering the stones like everyone else did earlier on, he spent a lifetime with Peggy.

    Doesn't break any rules established in the movie at all. In fact it makes hardly any difference to that particular branch of the multiverse (well established in the movie btw). To be honest, the biggest effect our avengers had on the branches they returned to was the branch of time where loki makes off with the Tesseract. Our avengers did nothing as far as I can recall to correct that.
    Well... it isn't the exact same way. Everyone else returns on the platform of the time machine. He just appears on the bench. This is on one hand a small detail, on the other, it introduces the big question about wtf Steve actually did.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    I always interpreted the conversation between the Ancient One and Bruce as once they returned the stones everything that had happened in the alternate timeline they created was erased. which would include Loki disappearing.
    Not necessarily... Since they did not get the space stone from that time jump, it's a little unclear if that whole divergent timeline got snipped by returning just the mind stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Except Gamora still exists, so no.
    If she still exists, its because she no longer exists in her alternate timeline but rather the main timeline. We have no reason to assume that someone who moves to a different timeline winks out of existence when their original timeline ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    No, I’m saying that if you erase an alternate timeline it would do just that. Gamora is evidence it wasn’t erased. I know, logic am hard.
    See above. You are presuming too much and then turning it into justification to be condescending. Chill.

  2. #1562
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Stark couldn’t refute it because he wasn’t there to hear the bs. The rest is you trying your hardest to make non-logic work.
    Except I'm not trying hard at all. I'm just using the rules presented in the film.

  3. #1563
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    You can see them living in the suburbs, in the 50es. Unless they live in a street full of Oldtimer enthusiasts. If you're telling me that not once, ever, someone saw him, that he spend these 70 years in the house, you haven't been paying attention. They would have been seen togethter, and Cap was such a prominent figure in the US that someone would have had to recognize him.

    But that's not the major problem. Peggy Carter married a US soldier that was freed by Steve Rogers, somewhere near Stalingrad, if I recall correctly. People[I] were[/I] at her wedding. She speaks about a husband, in an interview. Do you honestly think that none of her friends would have asked to meet this US soldier? Her describing him kind of narrows the number of possible candidates down, and SHIELD would double-check [I]everything[/I] about his agents, even as prominent as Peggy. If not, then at the very least HYDRA would have made inquiries.

    The only way the movie makes sense if you accept branching timelines with the possibility to alter your own future, which is exactly what Back to the Future did. You can alter your future by changing your past.

    And since that's the case, they have fucked up at least one universe to save their own, by removing Gamora from it. Guardians don't form, Ronan the Accuser obliterates a few planets, and a couple of years later ego devours Quill and destroys all life in that timeline.

    Also, Cap has to rebuild the Tesseract and the Staff to return them. And they were not the only items that were removed from the timelines. Remember the Baseball Glove? Yeah, another timeline altered.
    So, I was trying to read through every page of posts to see if ANYONE mentions Sharon Carter, but you came the closest and I'm not going to do 20 more pages of reading people raging back and forth about how much they hate the female character lineup scene (or how people think those people are petty) (for the record, I don't care about either of those).

    So, if people were to be "right" and "Cap" has been in the timeline married to Peggy the whole time, it creates a really weird (and very anti-Disney) relationship between Steve and Sharon, who would (if Steve dually existed in one timeline) be his.. great niece? At one point, the Steve-Sharon love connection was in the original Infinity War script (and probably scrapped solely due to the ambiguity caused by the way Cap's story ends).

    Steve has to have messed up another timeline, which opens up (for me) a whole new can of worms. It's been touched here but -
    1) So, Steve just messed up another timeline completely

    2) He somehow came back to this timeline without reappearing on the portal pad thing. I can let this one slide if he saved his last Pym Particles to travel forward in time rather than "returning" to the original timeline as they expected. I think a lot of these theories would have been 100% solved if they had just had Old Man Steve show up on the platform instead of having him sitting on the bench purely to add dramatic effect.

    3) Not a big deal, but Bucky CLEARLY has been told by Cap (or has some idea) that he will be going through with this plan to live with Peggy. Bucky says he's going to miss him, which would be 100% pointless if he thought he'd be back in 10 seconds. If you watch (obviously takes a second watch to pay attention to this stuff haha), Bucky reacts to everything that's going on in that scene as if he knows he's not returning.

    4) My biggest gripe right here. Now, the dramatic effect of this one varies based on whether he truly does exist in this timeline as Peggy's man, or if he's shattered another timeline - either one still has ramifications, but the worse one is: if he went to another timeline solely to be with Peggy, he's sort of.. using his last moment to be selfish as heck. We all love Cap, so it's fine with me, but when it comes down to it, our symbol of justice, righteousness, and doing what's right, no matter the personal cost.. goes against all of that and selfishly chooses to undo (or just entirely remove) Peggy's long and (I believe it was described at some point) as a happy life with someone she loved, solely so that he could have his turn with her. It's a bit less dramatic if he's the one there the entire time, but it's increasingly less likely that's even possible.

    5) Last thing - so, my most plausible answer to all of this, personally, is that perhaps he actually returned the Time Stone last, or kept all the stones and lived out his life with Peggy first, and then used them to reverse it. Because he was in the Quantum Realm, he can do any of these jumps at any point. It's possible he entirely lived his life out with Peggy, and then jumped back and undid it completely. This way he gets to live out his life with her, in SOME form of a reality, and then doesn't mess up the timeline (or, it probably does because.. man, time travel is confusing). My Time Stone idea is similar (by the way, does Cap age normally? I think most of us thought he didn't but now we're semi-realizing he possibly didn't age because he was frozen?). If he doesn't age normally, he could have used the Time Stone to increase his own age to match Peggy's as she aged, and he could have used the Reality Stone to alter how everyone else sees him so that they don't recognize him as Steve at all.

    5AM ramblings. I dunno. I loved the movie. Touching on other stuff:

    Tony will probably be back as AI for his daughter's suit, I'm guessing. It's totally possible Harley (the kid from Iron Man 3) could be the successor to the Iron Man mantle as well, though - they had enough thought to at least include the kid at the funeral.

    I'm guessing the Loki TV show will either take place at random and inconsequential times in the MCU timeline, or it'll just be about his adventures in the alternate timeline where he stole the cube while prisoner in the movie.

    WandaVision, I have no idea. I think there are ways of bringing Vision back, but it throws me for a loop that it may be set in the 1950s.

    Fat Thor, I enjoyed him. Chris Hemsworth said he was bored and seemed to be ready to abandon the character after Thor 2, but Thor 3 reinvigorated him and I do believe he is the only of the original trinity to say that he's still interested in making more. I would bet he's back for at least Guardians 3, which is probably going to be mainly about the crew trying to find or revive Gamora.

    I really thought that it was nice for all of the trinity to get their closure moments..:

    Thor got to talk to his mom, she gave him a nice pep talk, and it seemed like he'd feel better after that. It was actually a bit weird that he wanted to use the gauntlet so that he could "do something right" after that scene, but I think with his next appearance he'll be doing some soul-searching and will finally have enough introspection to figure out exactly what he does want to do with his life, now that his family ties and the burdens of expectation are totally lifted from him.

    Cap gets his Worthy moment, we all wanted it. We knew it was coming, and we figured it was coming now because it's his last outing. He also got to have his dance with Peggy, as much as it may bring our minds crumbling at the plotholes it creates.

    Iron Man/Tony comes full circle. He brings back Peter, he has a daughter and loves Pepper, he is finally able to be totally selfless, and it was a nice way to end the saga. If all of the first (23?) movies is known as the Infinity War Saga or whatever they called it, it starts and ends with Tony. It grew increasingly personal for him ramping from the first Avengers movie and continuing all the way to the end. Tony might have thought to return Thanos to his time to avoid messing up one of the timelines, but he's also Tony - he probably dusted him just so he'd have no way of returning to harm his family.

    Going forward? I think bringing everyone back could be an easy way to introduce mutants. Maybe random people who were brought back start developing powers. There's also the whole under-the-ocean earthquake thing, which seems like a throwaway problem, but we know that anything in the MCU can be turned in to something bigger. Could be some weird form of mutation releasing, could even be Terrigenesis. It's even possible that while half of the planets' populations missing (Carol did say things that were happening on Earth were happening on other planets), the planets were doing some sort of celestial correction and pushing out new forms of life of some sort, causing mutations.

    Parting words.. I honestly expected the stinger to be Galactus consuming a planet. I guess the deal was just too freshly closed, maybe. I can't see any other big bad coming up besides him though, especially if Marvel's somehow going to try to recreate hype for another 11 year movie arc.. and you know they will try, they won't be able to help themselves after those Endgame premiere number$.

  4. #1564
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Except you’re ignoring one of the big rules about erasing those alternate timelines and inventing a new one to make your logic work.
    When exactly do we learn the "alternative timelines" get erased when you return the stones ?
    Especially when we perfectly know that's wrong - otherwise the "main timeline" would have been erased as soon as the Avengers brought back all 6 after their destruction.

    In my opinion, all the created timelines (1970, 2010, 2013 and probably 194x where Cap spent his retirement) are parallel timelines with no impact to the main one whatever is happening there. Like completely independent.

    There is NO way the "main timeline" (the one we witness in the movies) are following 1970 (Pym particles stolen), 2010 (Loki disappeared, Captain seemingly working for Hydra) and 2013 (Thanos, Nebula and Gamora completely poofed out of this reality)'s ones

    Quote Originally Posted by Treecko View Post
    My Time Stone idea is similar (by the way, does Cap age normally? I think most of us thought he didn't but now we're semi-realizing he possibly didn't age because he was frozen?). If he doesn't age normally, he could have used the Time Stone to increase his own age to match Peggy's as she aged, and he could have used the Reality Stone to alter how everyone else sees him so that they don't recognize him as Steve at all.
    Well, erm, we all love Cap'tain but he's still a pretty random mortal. He can't use the Time Stone by himself just like that (no Eye of Agamoto, no months of learning the incantations or whatever), I seriously doubt he can use the Reality Stone either.
    Last edited by Ophenia; 2019-04-30 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #1565
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    Except you’re ignoring one of the big rules about erasing those alternate timelines and inventing a new one to make your logic work.
    How? She doesn't exist in that timeline anymore. Why would she be erased?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    When exactly do we learn the "alternative timelines" get erased when you return the stones ?
    That's the literal conclusion of the conversation between the Hulk and the Ancient One. What we have no reason to believe, however, is that someone who leaves their timeline to join another one, would suddenly wink out of existence because their original timeline goes away.

  6. #1566
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophenia View Post
    When exactly do we learn the "alternative timelines" get erased when you return the stones ?
    Especially when we perfectly know that's wrong - otherwise the "main timeline" would have been erased as soon as the Avengers brought back all 6 after their destruction.

    In my opinion, all the created timelines (1970, 2010, 2013 and probably 194x where Cap spent his retirement) are parallel timelines with no impact to the main one whatever is happening there. Like completely independent.
    I would think the "erased" is just a way of saying they never happen if you undo what you did. If you remove a stone, then replace the stone and no one notices (even if it took time, when you return you'd return to right after you took it) then history would continue on as if nothing happened and there is no alternate. Until you return them though, there is a fork, which you undo by returning them.
    If any alterations to the timeline remain, then you have created an alternate which will persist and run a new course.

    (I do not know if there are alternate timelines already or if alternate timelines in any way harm the main timeline, or really why there would even BE a main timeline if there are already alternate timelines.)
    "I only feel two things Gary, nothing, and nothingness."

  7. #1567
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    The (current) Defenders are as dead as the (current) Xmen.
    What really? But they always make references to the avengers movie, what a bummer those were good series

  8. #1568
    Quote Originally Posted by Svifnymr View Post
    I would think the "erased" is just a way of saying they never happen if you undo what you did. If you remove a stone, then replace the stone and no one notices (even if it took time, when you return you'd return to right after you took it) then history would continue on as if nothing happened and there is no alternate. Until you return them though, there is a fork, which you undo by returning them.
    If any alterations to the timeline remain, then you have created an alternate which will persist and run a new course.

    (I do not know if there are alternate timelines already or if alternate timelines in any way harm the main timeline, or really why there would even BE a main timeline if there are already alternate timelines.)
    I agree with you, that's how I view the thing.

    But in my opinion, all the timelines they've visited are altered, so they have to continue on their own path.

    1970: Pym Particles stolen, will probably affect the relationship between Stark and Pym. Space Stone likely replaced without the Cube, will have an impact about the researches made on it, so potential direct impact on both Captain Marvel events (1995) and Avengers 1 (2010).
    2010: Loki escaped, and Captain will put back the Spirit Stone near the Scepter (wasn't it brought back to 2023 in the first place ? Or only the Stone ? Don't remember) in the suitcase, then he will handle this back to Hydra agents, thus confirming Captain is working with - or at least aware of - Hydra. Plus, 2010 Captain was also convinced he faced Loki on this bridge thing.
    2013: Thanos, Nebula and Gamora suddenly disappeared. Plus, in GotG, Quill arrived a few minutes before Korath to get the Power Stone. With Quill stunned by War Machine, it is very likely Korath gets the Stone before him, and anyway without Gamora in the whole picture, Drax may not join the Guardians, and the whole Knowhere plot disappears. Ronan will have a free Power Stone and without Thanos in the picture, he's definitely the most powerful being in the universe.

    There is a good chance Disney uses the 2010 new timeline for their Loki serie, that's a perfect excuse to start from scratch, without the audience knowing how it will unfold in the next months/years (Ragnarok events and so on).
    Last edited by Ophenia; 2019-04-30 at 02:30 PM.

  9. #1569
    I liked the movie but it didn't feel like it particularly cared about time travel rules and just wanted to do their thing with it.

    There's a big deal made about putting the infinity stones back. Fair enough. Thor's hammer is put back too.

    But having Thanos and his army gone is likely to have a huge impact on that other timeline. And cap going back in time didn't make a branched timeline he just stayed in the main one?

  10. #1570
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    I liked the movie but it didn't feel like it particularly cared about time travel rules and just wanted to do their thing with it.

    There's a big deal made about putting the infinity stones back. Fair enough. Thor's hammer is put back too.

    But having Thanos and his army gone is likely to have a huge impact on that other timeline. And cap going back in time didn't make a branched timeline he just stayed in the main one?
    Just quoting you as an example here. Yes the other timeline is permanently altered but due to the fact that every other timeline will not reverse the snap i would say to the better. The important part is, that the stones are back so that the timeline has all the tools necessary to survive on their own.

    Their are already rumors that the Loki Disney+ series will evolve around this escaped Loki.

  11. #1571
    Finally watched it and overall loved it (if I had been alone in the theater I'd have cried my eyes out about half a dozen times, I really struggled), just a few minor problems:

    1. Tony is a giant hypocrite. He was in Iron Man 3, when he destroyed all his suits just to build new ones for Age of Ultron, he was in Civil War when he literally fought for the Sokovia Accords only to disregard them in the very same movie (when lying to the agents to travel to Siberia alone), he remained a hypocrite for Inifinity War (can't remember him asking for permission before engaging Thanos' troups in New York or at any point afterwards) and he completely blew up the hypocrisy scale here when he blamed Rogers for not being there when he needed him. Now whose fault was it again that Rogers was an internationally wanted criminal?

    2. Old Cap shouldn't have existed to give Falcon his shield. While he travelled back to return the inifinity stones (I wonder how he created a new cube for the Tesseract) causality required him to do this in the same reality they took them from, the reality where Thanos learned of their plan and jumped out of. This however was something he could not undo so he should have grown old in the alternative reality where Thanos stopped existing 2014 and could not have been in the normal "timeline" anymore.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    I liked the movie but it didn't feel like it particularly cared about time travel rules and just wanted to do their thing with it.

    There's a big deal made about putting the infinity stones back. Fair enough. Thor's hammer is put back too.

    But having Thanos and his army gone is likely to have a huge impact on that other timeline. And cap going back in time didn't make a branched timeline he just stayed in the main one?
    Good I'm not the only one who noticed. Good and contradiction-free time travel plots are just too rare.

    P.s. Ah, totally forgot about Loki's escape. I sure hope Cap fixed that too.
    Last edited by Galathir; 2019-04-30 at 02:52 PM.

  12. #1572
    Any time you travel back in time it creates a new unhindered timeline separate from any other time line. It is likely why we do not see time travelers now if time travel exists. It is like this to prevent the universe from imploding on itself.
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  13. #1573
    Quote Originally Posted by Unholyground View Post
    Any time you travel back in time it creates a new unhindered timeline separate from any other time line. It is likely why we do not see time travelers now if time travel exists. It is like this to prevent the universe from imploding on itself.
    Except for Cap traveling back in time because reasons.

  14. #1574
    Quote Originally Posted by Bright-Flower View Post
    Except for Cap traveling back in time because reasons.
    Yep, I think that had to do with contracts ending more than anything.
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  15. #1575
    Saw it Sunday and have had some time to mull it over. Seems like spoiler tags are here and there in this thread, so being cautious.


    Incredible finale that I was so glad I avoided spoilers to see, and overall fantastic movie if you ignore the timey-wimey stuff. Problem is as someone who always enjoys those stories when well done, well it annoys me because it is so in your face and something I can't look past.

    Missed opportunity: one end credit scene, pulling back from tony's reactor thing at the bottom of the lake, slightly covered in silt. We get Kang, noting "what a mess these amateurs have made". Would have loved that, and considering how much I clapped and cheered at scenes in the movie, it would have been as huge as Thanos at the end of Avengers. It would have been an acknowledgement that the heroes in their victory messed up big time, something that I think the movie needed to point out. That's really my problem with the movie, if you don't "have" to fix the mess you make, why bother trying to be sneaky. Talking with the ancient one (which I thought was a great cameo) to me emphasized it was their duty to set things right, and in essence make their work not create alternate timelines, but simply be fulfilling history. I know they tried to play off all the time travel stuff the audience is used to from film as nonsense, but without that, well, you really don't have consequences.

    Fixable issues:
    -space stone theft: fixable. Cap replaces the Pym particles and the space stone.
    -mind stone theft: fixable
    -ether stone theft: fixable
    -time stone theft: fixable
    -soul stone fixable
    -space stone misstep: fixable. Could even play out where Cap works the ancient one to get the space stone back and put loki back where he belonged with her help and the time stone. I can take this leap of faith. I thought for sure that when Bucky was looking away after cap didn't jump back, we were going to get an eye flash and he was going to be loki, though I liked that ending with cap even better.


    small mess: cap going back to be with peggy. since I liked that concept, I can look past it. I'd have to rewatch too much to see if this is ruled out in the other movies, or left vague enough to where it could have occurred.

    Big ass messes:
    -power stone and the elimination of thanos. all that was just ugly. if Tony had used the gauntlet to zap them back, zap their minds, use the soul stone to bring nebula back to life, etc etc, then you could say this was fixed, but since it just looked like he massacred them all, I'm calling this a mess. that is unlike loki swiping the space stone, this has to make an alternate reality as noted above because how do you fix the lack of thanos?

    Biggest problem:
    Continuation of the MCU: how can you even begin to deal with half the population having a 5 year gap. stuff I'm sure has been discussed to death in this thread. How is the next spiderman movie going to even work, with half his class being 5 years older. If DC had done this, people would be all over their case. they haven't earned any faith in doing something this big with what they've built. I'll give Feige et al some credit on what they've done so far, so I'm anxious to see how this is addressed in spider man.

    That said, there was a lot of awesome in this film. 9.5/10 for me, with that going up or down depending on how the cinematic universe evolves from this point.


  16. #1576
    Bloodsail Admiral salate's Avatar
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    Spoiler link to explain the timeline stuff
    No idea who made dis but well, atleast it explains stuff.
    https://pp.userapi.com/c846320/v8463...5XWtIhdjCo.jpg (dont click it if u didnt watch the movie)

    I like the movie tbh.
    step into everything will gief ya nothing, mon

  17. #1577

  18. #1578
    Quote Originally Posted by salate View Post
    Spoiler link to explain the timeline stuff
    No idea who made dis but well, atleast it explains stuff.
    https://pp.userapi.com/c846320/v8463...5XWtIhdjCo.jpg (dont click it if u didnt watch the movie)

    I like the movie tbh.
    People really need to have a key to their abbreviations. Otherwise, they are just being lazy.

  19. #1579
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daevied View Post
    What really? But they always make references to the avengers movie, what a bummer those were good series
    I was reading a post on reddit that Disney can't even use the characters for two years or something like that.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by salate View Post
    Spoiler link to explain the timeline stuff
    No idea who made dis but well, atleast it explains stuff.
    https://pp.userapi.com/c846320/v8463...5XWtIhdjCo.jpg (dont click it if u didnt watch the movie)

    I like the movie tbh.
    I struggling with whether or not they jumped to one parallel timeline or created multiple timelines when they jumped. I decided on one parallel timeline in my head because its a lot simpler. Wonder what the canon explanation is.

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  20. #1580
    Quote Originally Posted by SavoirFaire View Post

    Biggest problem:
    Continuation of the MCU: how can you even begin to deal with half the population having a 5 year gap. stuff I'm sure has been discussed to death in this thread. How is the next spiderman movie going to even work, with half his class being 5 years older. If DC had done this, people would be all over their case. they haven't earned any faith in doing something this big with what they've built. I'll give Feige et al some credit on what they've done so far, so I'm anxious to see how this is addressed in spider man.

    Your last sentence says it all for me. There have been several big notes at this point, especially in IW and Endgame, where a lot of folks were worried how it wasn't going to be crap, and so far Feige etc have delivered pretty solidly. How Far From Home plays out will prove if their still hitting their beats or not.

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