Thoughts on 8 sec charger on ptr?

[gaymer77]

So having a sprint that talented gives you 6 seconds of 100% speed increase every 45 seconds isn't good enough. You want it to be 16 seconds of 100% speed increase every 45 seconds? Rogue's sprint is only a 70% increase for 8 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown. And druid's dash is only a 60% increase for 10 seconds on a TWO MINUTE cooldown. If you ask me, this 8 second Divine Steed bullshit needs to be reverted back to the 3 seconds per charge it is right now.

Yeah a root or snare break would be better than extra duration, but it's a start.

Um correct me if I'm wrong...and I might be wrong here...but doesn't ret...again I may be wrong here...have blessing of freedom they can put on themselves...once again I apologize if I'm wrong on this....that not only removes roots & snares but makes you immune to them for 8 seconds? Sorry if I'm wrong too.

[Schattenlied]

So having a sprint that talented gives you 6 seconds of 100% speed increase every 45 seconds isn't good enough. You want it to be 16 seconds of 100% speed increase every 45 seconds?

When talented it is 6s the first time, and then it's 3s every 45s unless you wait 90s for both charges to come back... We do not get both charges back every 45 seconds, that's not how the system works, it's never worked that way.

Don't make shit up just to make your argument look better.

Rogue's sprint is only a 70% increase for 8 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown.

Rogues also have Grappling hook on a 30s CD or Shadowstep, depending on their spec, also 15% higher passive movement speed.

And druid's dash is only a 60% increase for 10 seconds on a TWO MINUTE cooldown. If you ask me, this 8 second Divine Steed bullshit needs to be reverted back to the 3 seconds per charge it is right now.

Druids can shapeshift out of roots and snares at will without a cooldown or mana cost and move at ~150% speed in cat form (if feral) and 187% speed in travel form while in combat.

You can't just look at the abilities in a vacuum, look at how effective they are with their whole kit. Druids are the single most mobile class in the game in PvP, despite that 2 minute cooldown on dash.

Um correct me if I'm wrong...and I might be wrong here...but doesn't ret...again I may be wrong here...have blessing of freedom they can put on themselves...once again I apologize if I'm wrong on this....that not only removes roots & snares but makes you immune to them for 8 seconds? Sorry if I'm wrong too.

6/11 classes can and will dispel it immediately. We on average get 1-2 seconds of that immunity if someone with a dispel is present, if a mage is present WE have to remove it ourselves before it's GCD is even done or they will steal it and get the remaining 6-7 seconds of immunity for themselves.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Where roots are involved, yeah, because we can break one every 25s... Where snares are involved? No, you have it much better, none of your mobility is hamperted by snares, all of ours is, and once freedom gets dispelled all we can do is RP walk at our targets. Warrior's charge and heroic leap work perfectly fine if you are snared, DK's Death Grip and Wraith Walk work perfectly fine when you're snared, DK's Death's Advance specifically counters snares by preventing them being reduced below 70% speed at all times, meaning they are always moving faster than their target if they have Chains of Ice on it.

You don't know what you are talking about... Once freedom gets dispelled Ret can do nothing other than throw judgment at our target and pillar hump.

Re. Warriors: they don't spec into Double Time for arena, they spec into Storm Bolt. Warriors have two ways of getting to a target, neither of which are particularly helpful for staying on targets that sit on a pillar. In 2s, but moreso 3s, Warriors are totally reliant on their teammates support when it comes to staying on a target. The moment they are rooted or slowed the Warrior is facing an uphill battle with nothing they can do about it if the target has more than one escape mechanic (such as monks/druid healers).
Re. DKs: they don't generally spec into Wraith Walk, they spec into Death Pact because their defensive CDs are shite. But sure, Death's Advance does make them less susceptible to slows, but that's by design since their survivability and is reliant on them being in melee. Even then they have difficulties staying on targets because their gap closer is Death Grip, which can be immuned and avoided through LoS.

Every plate class suffers from slows. The only difference is that one of them is able to be immune to roots/slows to every comp except those that have Mages or Shaman, almost as though classes having counters is intentional.

I'll just close this by saying there was a reason why double HoF was removed from Ret Pallys, and it 100% had to do with it being too much utility and mobility. It's almost like 2s and 3s aren't balanced so that one class can do everything perfectly and needs to rely on their teammates for help.

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Um correct me if I'm wrong...and I might be wrong here...but doesn't ret...again I may be wrong here...have blessing of freedom they can put on themselves...once again I apologize if I'm wrong on this....that not only removes roots & snares but makes you immune to them for 8 seconds? Sorry if I'm wrong too.

Yeah it's a little demented. What's more awkward about it is that Rets are one of the most represented damage dealers in both 2s and 3s, but apparently significant mobility buffs are needed according to the community.

[Schattenlied]

Re. Warriors: they don't spec into Double Time for arena, they spec into Storm Bolt.

Your gap closer still has a lower cooldown than freedom, let along the Divine Steed we need to use with it to actually close a gap.

Warriors have two ways of getting to a target, neither of which are particularly helpful for staying on targets that sit on a pillar.

We have one way to get to a target, Steed+freedom, and if freedom gets dispelled steed stops working, and freedom can get dispelled before we even have a chance to cast steed.

In 2s, but moreso 3s, Warriors are totally reliant on their teammates support when it comes to staying on a target.

And you think Ret isn't?

The moment they are rooted or slowed the Warrior is facing an uphill battle with nothing they can do about it if the target has more than one escape mechanic (such as monks/druid healers).

So, just like Ret then, except your gap closers are guaranteed to get you where you want to go when you press the button, ours aren't.

Re. DKs: they don't generally spec into Wraith Walk, they spec into Death Pact because their defensive CDs are shite.

Sure, that's fair.

But sure, Death's Advance does make them less susceptible to slows, but that's by design since their survivability and is reliant on them being in melee.

Oh boy, so is ours.

Even then they have difficulties staying on targets because their gap closer is Death Grip, which can be immuned

DOn;t use it when the target has an immunity to it active then? This is basic stuff.

and avoided through LoS.

Ok? that's every gap closer, including ours.

Every plate class suffers from slows.

Yes, and 2/3 have gap closers that work regardless of whether they are snared.

The only difference is that one of them is able to be immune to roots/slows to every comp except those that have Mages or Shaman

Mage, shaman, hunter, DH, Priest, and warlock can all dispel it.

almost as though classes having counters is intentional.

Yeah, counters are fine, not when they are this excessive though... No class should be so easy to shut down entirely that it just takes 2 GCDs of abilities that have no cooldowns ( a dispel and a snare) to render them entirely useless. No other class is that easily countered, there is no reason Ret should be. Our counter should not be a complete shut down, it should be like every other class's counter, which just lessen their effectiveness.

Yeah it's a little demented. What's more awkward about it is that Rets are one of the most represented damage dealers in both 2s and 3s, but apparently significant mobility buffs are needed according to the community.

The only demented thing here is you thinking that being strong with a select few people to carry us around, and only in the least participated in form of content in the game (arenas) makes it a good design for the entire game. PvP balance should not be focused 100% around the least participated in form of PvP with 0 consideration given to the forms of PvP where the vast majority plays (which is 10v10,15v15, and world PvP).

[gaymer77]

When talented it is 6s the first time, and then it's 3s every 45s unless you wait 90s for both charges to come back... We do not get both charges back every 45 seconds, that's not how the system works, it's never worked that way.

Don't make shit up just to make your argument look better.

Funny. I just got on my pally & popped Divine Steed and sure enough 3 seconds for one charge and 3 seconds for another charge making it a total of 6 seconds every 45 seconds. Then once the 45 seconds is up it was another 3 seconds. Still better than rogue & druid's version of it. Druid's don't get charges to their dash to lower their cooldown from 2 MINUTES at 60% speed increase unless they are feral & pick up the Tiger Dash talent which makes it 200% every 45 seconds with the speed decreasing over the 5 seconds it is active.

6/11 classes can and will dispel it immediately.

Offensive dispel classes:

Priest - any spec
Shaman - any spec
Mage - any spec
Hunter - any spec with a stag out (requires you having a stag tamed & in your current stable to use it) or BM hunter using a spirit beast (requires having tamed a spirit beast & having it in your current stable to use)
Demon Hunter - one spec (Havoc)
Warlock - any spec (requires having a felhunter out as your active pet)

So let's add this up. Of the 36 specs in the game a total of 9 can offensively dispel under no special conditions. Another 7 can offensively dispel under special conditions. Together that's a total of 16 out of 33 specs in the game not the 6/11 classes (implying 18 specs) if we're counting the 2 classes that require special pets and 1 class that requires a certain spec to do it. Yeah I say there's sooooooo many classes that will dispel that Blessing of Freedom off you....

(for the record most mages don't even know they have spellsteal so the chances of them using it against you are pretty small & same goes for priests using dispel offensively & shaman using purge)

[Magical Mudcrab]

Your gap closer still has a lower cooldown than freedom, let along the Divine Steed we need to use with it to actually close a gap.

Assuming I PvP as a Warrior still?
Sure, but Divine Steed is better for chasing on pillars or multi-level areas. Charge doesn't work without LoS.

We have one way to get to a target, Steed+freedom, and if freedom gets dispelled steed stops working.

Sure, and if someone is behind a pillar, both the Warrior and DK effectively don't have gap closers now. Woe is me.

And you think Ret isn't?

Every plate class is reliant on their team for uptime.

So, just like Ret then, except your gap closers are guaranteed to get you where you want to go when you press the button, ours aren't.

You get versatility or you get effective but limited (i.e.: common situations where it simply does not work), you get to choose one of these things.

Oh boy, so is ours.

WoG and FoL don't require 100% uptime to use whereas DKs need to be in melee range to use Death Strike.

DOn;t use it when the target has an immunity to it active then? This is basic stuff.[.quote]

OK, how does a DK use DG against a target who has used Smoke Bomb?
If the target has used Bubble?
The point was that that DG does not function if an immunity is up, effectively being dead time for the DK. Charge still functions if an immunity is used (sans Smoke Bomb) and so does Divine Charger. During the immunity, it's trivial to get behind a pillar and LoS, making DG a dead ability until they're not LoS.

Ok? that's every gap closer, including ours.[/quote]

No, sprints are not voided by LoS. Abilities like Deathgrip, Charge, Shadow step, etc., are all unable to be used against targets that are effectively pillar humping. Charge is more susceptible than the others due to its minimum range.

Yes, and 2/3 have gap closers that work regardless of whether they are snared.

But don't function without LoS, which you seem to be massively undervaluing.

[Schattenlied]

Funny. I just got on my pally & popped Divine Steed and sure enough 3 seconds for one charge and 3 seconds for another charge making it a total of 6 seconds every 45 seconds. Then once the 45 seconds is up it was another 3 seconds.

Yes, that's what I just said... You said before that it was 6s every 45s period, which it is not, as you just learned.

Still better than rogue & druid's version of it. Druid's don't get charges to their dash to lower their cooldown from 2 MINUTES at 60% speed increase unless they are feral & pick up the Tiger Dash talent which makes it 200% every 45 seconds with the speed decreasing over the 5 seconds it is active.

Again, you are looking at them in a vacuum without considering their rest of their mobility tools.

Hunter - any spec with a stag out (requires you having a stag tamed & in your current stable to use it) or BM hunter using a spirit beast (requires having tamed a spirit beast & having it in your current stable to use)

You forgot: Moths, Sporebats, Waterstriders, Bats, Nether Rays, and Cranes.

Hunters have 5 current pet slots and there are only 3 pet abilities that are useful in PvP (slow, dispel, and mortal wounds), if they don't have a dispel pet in their group they have no one to blame but themselves.

Demon Hunter - one spec (Havoc)

Oh no, only Havoc?! Gotta watch out for those super common and dangerous Vengeance DHs /s

People don't PvP on Vengeance except to run flags.

So let's add this up.

Yes, let's add this up, with my above corrections to your ignorance:

6/11 classes.

(for the record most mages don't even know they have spellsteal so the chances of them using it against you are pretty small & same goes for priests using dispel offensively & shaman using purge)

1. Balance decisions should never be made assuming players don't know how to play... This would be like saying "most Paladins don't even know they have freedom, so the chances of them using it against you is pretty small" to the people who can't dispel it. That is a shit excuse and you know it.

2. I feel like you don't have much of any experience in PvP as Ret, because my freedom never lasts more than 2 seconds unless there isn't a dispeller present at all.

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Assuming I PvP as a Warrior still?

Oh boy, someone who is speaking on a topic without current hands on experience... No wonder this discussion is a shit show.

Sure, but Divine Steed is better for chasing on pillars or multi-level areas. Charge doesn't work without LoS.

If we're snared it might as well not exist.

Sure, and if someone is behind a pillar, both the Warrior and DK effectively don't have gap closers now. Woe is me.

Leap into LoS behind the pillar, on the same cooldown as steed, without the need to blow a 25s CD for it to be functional.

Every plate class is reliant on their team for uptime.

Not as much as Ret, not anywhere near.

You get versatility or you get effective but limited (i.e.: common situations where it simply does not work), you get to choose one of these things.

We have neither of these things. We hit unreasonably hard, that's all we do, and I'm happy to give that up to get Emancipate back.

WoG and FoL don't require 100% uptime to use whereas DKs need to be in melee range to use Death Strike.

Can't generate HP or Selfless Healer stacks without being in melee.

No, sprints are not voided by LoS.

If your opponent is not stupid enough to just stand there and let you run around the pillar to them without moving around the pillar themselves, yes, it is.

I'm done responding to both of you after this, you either get it, or you're being willfully ignorant of reality, and people who are willfully ignorant of reality are not worth my time arguing with.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

As someone who has played both Paladin and Warrior since Vanilla: LOL @ people saying Paladin has better mobility than Warriors....

[Magical Mudcrab]

Oh boy, someone who is speaking on a topic without current hands on experience... No wonder this discussion is a shit show.

Nah, it was a shit show when other Rets began demanding buffs for things that have been intentionally nerfed. Moreover, by your logic, you can't comment on Warriors or DKs because you don't primarily PvP on either. It's a stupid statement to make.

That said, I'm gonna stop here as it's very obvious you don't play arena at a very high rating. I would suggest getting over 2k before telling other Rets whether they're immobile or not.

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As someone who has played both Paladin and Warrior since Vanilla: LOL @ people saying Paladin has better mobility than Warriors....

Not better, but this demented pity party is the reason why people hate the Paladin community. Ret mobility in PvP is fine and has advantages over direct gap closers like charge and deathgrip, while those also have advantages over sprints. It's a trade off.

[Mirishka]

I feel like Ret needs that 'Holy leap' thing we've seen Tirion (and more recently, Turalyon) do, more than anything. An additional gap-closer that fits the flavor of the class.

Would have made a nice 120 talent. :/

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Not better, but this demented pity party is the reason why people hate the Paladin community. Ret mobility in PvP is fine and has advantages over direct gap closers like charge and deathgrip, while those also have advantages over sprints. It's a trade off.

Yeah of course different specs have different trade offs, I was just commenting on people saying 'try playing a warrior!" ... I almost spat out my drink.

[Malikath]

(for the record most mages don't even know they have spellsteal so the chances of them using it against you are pretty small & same goes for priests using dispel offensively & shaman using purge)

that's alot of bullshit, as usual coming from you.

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I feel like Ret needs that 'Holy leap' thing we've seen Tirion (and more recently, Turalyon) do, more than anything. An additional gap-closer that fits the flavor of the class.

Would have made a nice 120 talent. :/

make inquisition a teleportation attack.

lol, no, that should be baseline or on the mobility tier.

[Nightheart]

Does this solve much in terms of Ret mobility? Do you think it will stay at 8 sec anyway? I have a feeling it will go down to 6 maybe.

I think it should be added to the talent that gives you 2 charges. I feel like 8 is alittle too much though.

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I feel like Ret needs that 'Holy leap' thing we've seen Tirion (and more recently, Turalyon) do, more than anything. An additional gap-closer that fits the flavor of the class.

Would have made a nice 120 talent. :/

YEAH! Give us a fucking light charge! xD

[aGit]

Mage, shaman, hunter, DH, Priest, and warlock can all dispel it.

Hunter dispel requires a pet rarely used in pvp. Or atleast there is a bit of trade off of missing out MS debuff and root/snare removal.

[Bloodronin4life]

Blizzard already announced on their Twitter this was a bug and not intended.

[gaymer77]

Since this post is not in the PVP section, I ask you, are you this selfish and hateful of Ret Pala's that you want to deny them more mobility in PvE (such as Uldir which is pretty heavy movement dependant in Mythic)? Just because they stomp you in PVP?

Edit: Because has it come to mind to you that they want to make our mobility better for PvE foremost and will maybe apply a nerf/cut to it for PvP ONLY after?

This game has both PvE and PvP aspects to it. They don't differentiate spells for PvP and PvE like other games do. A buff to a ret's PvE mobility means a buff to an already strong representation in PvP. The only difference between how spells work in PvE and PvP is healing spells have a lower base amount. Mobility, power cooldowns (arcane power, etc etc etc), and damage dealing spells don't get reduced just because it happens in PvP. But you're right, this post was not made in the PvP section. It was made in the paladin section where discussion about PvE and PvP changes happen. The PvP section is usually discussions about overall PvP topics not about specific spell changes so your point is well pointless.

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Oh and how does ret suffer from PvE mobility when they currently have better mobility than the rogue and druids who have similar yet weaker versions of Divine Steed?

[roahn the warlock]

lmao people who clearly dont know aything about ret is already crying on the pvp forum.

This changes pretty much nothing, we dont need 8 seconds to reach our target, 3 was enough, we're still going to be just as immobile because we're still going to have freedom dispelled and have a 45 sec CD on steed

Psssst. This is great for raiding, the real part of the game.

[Schattenlied]

Psssst. This is great for raiding, the real part of the game.

Psssst. I'd rather have mobility that was reasonably functional in both PvP and PvE, like we had in Cata, MoP, and WoD.

[gaymer77]

You clearly don't play this game, or haven't played it for atleast... 1-2 years? Hey, psst, have you heard about this? There's PvE and PvP templates in WoW. Yes, that's right. There ARE differences in how spells healing, damage, etc. applies and works in PvP only.

And I would go deeper into your second point but is there any point in explaining it to you? No offense but if your sig is updated, your character seems to be ilvl 325, the highest content in the current game you've done seems to be... Looking For Raid. No rated PvP, anything at all.

...why are you commenting on PvP/PvE changes that have like, 0% impact on you? Play the game first before you meddle with how peoples classes feel in relevant content.

Didn't you hear? PvP templates went away at the end of LEGION. Try again...

[Mirishka]

I think it should be added to the talent that gives you 2 charges. I feel like 8 is alittle too much though.

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YEAH! Give us a fucking light charge! xD

Do you remember that combination Avenging Wrath/Heroic Leap-type thing Turalyon did to fight the 'final' pitlord in those early Argus quests? Where Alleria showed up the first time? That's what I was thinking would be badass for player pallies.