Guardian in 8.1

[NightZero88]

New talent :

Subterfuge : You keep your actual HP & Armor for 8 seconds after switching out of bear form. Can only be used once every 25 seconds

This will allow us to use cat form for kitting, boomkin for dps & normal form for healing without taking big damage.

Too good to be true.

This would actually be amazing. Running away and shifting to cast a swiftmend on myself or a wild growth in a M+ is really helpful sometimes but very dangerous. You should work at Blizz, this is a great talent idea.

[Extremities]

New talent :

Subterfuge : You keep your actual HP & Armor for 8 seconds after switching out of bear form. Can only be used once every 25 seconds

This will allow us to use cat form for kitting, boomkin for dps & normal form for healing without taking big damage.

Too good to be true.

Too good to be true indeed. Blizzards capability to make useful, unique, and strong talents is, I feel, the thing of the past. Would be a pretty sweet ability but you can pretty much guarantee something even remotely close to this would not be implemented.

[axxey]

Too good to be true indeed. Blizzards capability to make useful, unique, and strong talents is, I feel, the thing of the past. Would be a pretty sweet ability but you can pretty much guarantee something even remotely close to this would not be implemented.

I liked heart of the wild and symbiosis

[exochaft]

Well mine heals for 50% max HP with the talent and the azerite trait x2. so it does heal really good, problem is it should be off GCD and have no rage cost IMO.

The reason I said I had mixed feelings is that FR worked well in Legion in PvE but not PvP, as FR didn't scale in PvP. In BfA, FR heals quite a bit more in PvP, but much less in PvE compared to Legion. If we did have scaling FR based upon damage taken again, I'd prefer it scaled with PvP damage or have a much higher baseline heal than it did in Legion. Also, FR should work well regardless of Azerite traits, and even 50% max HP is pretty small compared to what FR was capable of doing in Legion.

[Unholyground]

The reason I said I had mixed feelings is that FR worked well in Legion in PvE but not PvP, as FR didn't scale in PvP. In BfA, FR heals quite a bit more in PvP, but much less in PvE compared to Legion. If we did have scaling FR based upon damage taken again, I'd prefer it scaled with PvP damage or have a much higher baseline heal than it did in Legion. Also, FR should work well regardless of Azerite traits, and even 50% max HP is pretty small compared to what FR was capable of doing in Legion.

Ya, I know what you mean, with no bonuses at all the old version had the potential to heal you for a ton if you took a big hit. I don't mind the new one because I have to time it correctly an really pay attention to make sure I optimize it.

[Daan]

The reason I said I had mixed feelings is that FR worked well in Legion in PvE but not PvP, as FR didn't scale in PvP.

FR got nerfed several times in Legion PvP even when it was already low. FR in Legion PvE was fine, so I don't understand why Blizzard did so many bad changes to it.

[MookieRah]

I really like the subterfuge talent idea. I also think that bringing in some kind of proc like Predatory Swiftness from Feral (basically you earn free insta-cast regrowths based on a % chance from combo points, with a 5 combo point granting a 100% chance) would be something that would help Guardian sustain a lot too. Seems kinda silly that only Blood and Vengeance get passive incomming heals when all tanks need something like that for m+ situations.

They could really fix the spec in a ton of different ways that would work, but we'll see what we get.

[exochaft]

I really like the subterfuge talent idea. I also think that bringing in some kind of proc like Predatory Swiftness from Feral (basically you earn free insta-cast regrowths based on a % chance from combo points, with a 5 combo point granting a 100% chance) would be something that would help Guardian sustain a lot too. Seems kinda silly that only Blood and Vengeance get passive incomming heals when all tanks need something like that for m+ situations.

They could really fix the spec in a ton of different ways that would work, but we'll see what we get.

One thing that would likely have to change (as it's usually forgotten nowadays since we don't shift out of bear much) is that we do not lose our current rage values when shifting out of bear. If I recall, this used to be the case until some PvP issue came up where non-bear druids (think it mostly applied to healers) would build up a full rage bar to help burst down people at the right moment since they'd stay at 100 rage while not in bear form... so everyone lost this ability. However, one of the largest setbacks to bears who do shift out of bear form for whatever reason is that we potentially lose out on large amounts of rage, and shifting back doesn't leave us with much to use. At this point, I think it's completely alright for Guardians to keep their rage pools above 20 rage when shifting out of bear form baseline.

[Chuckadoodle]

One thing that would likely have to change (as it's usually forgotten nowadays since we don't shift out of bear much) is that we do not lose our current rage values when shifting out of bear. If I recall, this used to be the case until some PvP issue came up where non-bear druids (think it mostly applied to healers) would build up a full rage bar to help burst down people at the right moment since they'd stay at 100 rage while not in bear form... so everyone lost this ability. However, one of the largest setbacks to bears who do shift out of bear form for whatever reason is that we potentially lose out on large amounts of rage, and shifting back doesn't leave us with much to use. At this point, I think it's completely alright for Guardians to keep their rage pools above 20 rage when shifting out of bear form baseline.

This would actually make our affinities less gimmicky and more a part of the spec.

[Deleted]

Couldn't stand the state of feral or guardian in BfA beta and trust me Blizz had feedback about how weak it was. Re-mained DH after playing druid since BC.

Would love to see some guardian buffs, currently tanking normal Uldir (as a semi freshly geared alt Guardian) and I have absolutely no chance of MT with such piss poor threat gen. Other tanks doing double damage without trying. Have noticed that you can do a ton of dps spamming swipe AoE at the cost of survivability (looking at you, Zul trash).

If I'm remembering wrongly forgive me, but I do remember reading a blue post about how difficult it is to balance so many specs, and I can completely understand that, but to do it so damn badly this xpac and prioritise NERFING azerite traits over buffing/tuning classes baffles me. Reasons not to rush an xpac launch. The whole game feels rushed - not to mention none of the content thus far seems to even fit the theme of the expansion.

[parasight]

This is probably the most poorly designed poll I've seen in about six or seven years.

[Abitou]

Some big buffs on PTR right now, still no playstyle changes

[Chuckadoodle]

Some big buffs on PTR right now, still no playstyle changes

I am not looking a gift horse in the moth as a 12% buff across the board (aura) is greatly appreciated but that could be applied as a HF, was hoping with a major patch they actually take a look at the playstyle. So all in all rather disappointed.

[dcc626]

I am not looking a gift horse in the moth as a 12% buff across the board (aura) is greatly appreciated but that could be applied as a HF, was hoping with a major patch they actually take a look at the playstyle. So all in all rather disappointed.

not every spec is going to get a makeover. numbers changes are about as much as can be expected.

[exochaft]

I am not looking a gift horse in the moth as a 12% buff across the board (aura) is greatly appreciated but that could be applied as a HF, was hoping with a major patch they actually take a look at the playstyle. So all in all rather disappointed.

I'm going to safely assume that the changes aren't done yet, because not only are there not many bear/prot warrior changes on the PTR but also there aren't really any adjustments to DK/monk tanks (only see a DH tank removal of bonus armor from a trait).

After having to jump into mythic Uldir tanking due to some roster issues recently, I've started to get a better idea concerning bears on the raiding side (already done the mythic+ side). Yeah, GCD changes to so many abilities doesn't feel good at all, and FR scaling with damage taken would feel so much more rewarding in all PvE content as the current variation makes me feel almost completely dependent on external heals. Only thing that really feels good is our physical mitigation, which ironically enough is the one system they didn't touch with bears after Legion.

[Chuckadoodle]

I fear that changes are done and like dcc626 alluded too we are probably not inline for a makeover, even if that makeover is as simple as adjusting 2 or 3 talent lines. In the end this does follow what Ion said with regards to tuning.

[Arawrabearialis]

I'm going to safely assume that the changes aren't done yet, because not only are there not many bear/prot warrior changes on the PTR but also there aren't really any adjustments to DK/monk tanks (only see a DH tank removal of bonus armor from a trait).

After having to jump into mythic Uldir tanking due to some roster issues recently, I've started to get a better idea concerning bears on the raiding side (already done the mythic+ side). Yeah, GCD changes to so many abilities doesn't feel good at all, and FR scaling with damage taken would feel so much more rewarding in all PvE content as the current variation makes me feel almost completely dependent on external heals. Only thing that really feels good is our physical mitigation, which ironically enough is the one system they didn't touch with bears after Legion.

DK's got 2 mitigation nerfs in this build, Vet of the Third War lost its armor bonus and Will of the Necropolis was changed from Below 35%, 35% less dmg to 30 and 30.

As to the bear buff, I agree with Chuckadoodle that while 12% dmg increase is great, it should be hotfixed today not postponed till 8.1. That being said, I would personally prefer they NOT make sweeping changes to the Bear playstyle. What we are lacking right now is utility and self-sufficiency. Bear has always had a fairly simple playstyle and many of us enjoy that aspect of the spec.

- - - Updated - - -

I fear that changes are done and like dcc626 alluded too we are probably not inline for a makeover, even if that makeover is as simple as adjusting 2 or 3 talent lines. In the end this does follow what Ion said with regards to tuning.

You're probably right, but still no word on the supposed Prot Warrior changes they promised so maybe there's still hope for Bears as well.

[Chuckadoodle]

I should clarify, I agree Arawra, sweeping changes to playstyle are really not needed. What I think is needed is some alterations to our toolkit a la Vortex and somehow make our affinities have some synergy with guardian outside of dash away, hope your M + group has applied a slow and pop a heal based off Resto Affinity.

[axxey]

I'm going to safely assume that the changes aren't done yet, because not only are there not many bear/prot warrior changes on the PTR but also there aren't really any adjustments to DK/monk tanks (only see a DH tank removal of bonus armor from a trait).

After having to jump into mythic Uldir tanking due to some roster issues recently, I've started to get a better idea concerning bears on the raiding side (already done the mythic+ side). Yeah, GCD changes to so many abilities doesn't feel good at all, and FR scaling with damage taken would feel so much more rewarding in all PvE content as the current variation makes me feel almost completely dependent on external heals. Only thing that really feels good is our physical mitigation, which ironically enough is the one system they didn't touch with bears after Legion.

Is ironfur just a tooltip change? I dont know how the calculation changed, flat armor amount now.

[Peacemoon]

I don’t understand why Thrash lost its snare, seemed pretty integral in Legion.
Also without Rage of the Sleeper, and with Berserk being baked into Incarnation sometime ago, Guardians now have no baseline offensive cooldown. Surely every other tank has one?
It’s quite apparent our damage is subpar. A flat buff would be easy to do.
Our mastery and ‘increased hp and healing’ has always been a great part of bears, I would like to see a return to that as our hp does not seem that much higher anymore.

Just glad for personal reasons I can’t play much at the moment. Hope we have some love by the time I’m back. Tragic, considering Guardian was in such a good place in Legion. Very poor from the developers.