Guardian in 8.1

[MookieRah]

Raid tanking might be nice on bosses we can catweave though, for the people that care about doing optimal DPS. Maybe we won't be top for that even still, though.

You can pretty much catweave every boss, just the amount of catweaving you can do depends on the mechanics. Even on fights without real swaps, most bosses have some big telegraphed attack with a long cast bar, and that is where you can squeeze in some cat time. With the new changes, it's more efficient, as Rake > Shred > Shred > Rip will get you a rake with a 16 second full damage rip off of a full energy bar.

As far as what we can expect, it is quite possible for Bear dps to be #1 on single target. For AoE we should be definitely better than we were, but still not as good as most of the others. They should think of a way to fix this too, and it seems obvious to me the key to that would be something tied to Thrash.

[Daan]

Death Knights were the undisputed rulers of M+ in Legion, and they're dominating it even more now in BfA. They're now also the #1 (or occasionally #2 behind monks, depending on the fight) raid tanks. They certainly weren't wrecked as some kind of tax for their Legion performance.

Don't forget the Challenge Modes in MoP and WoD where Blood DKs were the undisputed rulers, too.

[ShaanuJaanu]

So because for one expansion Druids were in a good place, they should be garbage in the next? Nobody's arguing against Prot Warrior buffs, we're saying BOTH classes need attention.

No, except it is not garbage. You can be mediocre in one expansion, it is okay. Basically, stop QQing just because bears arent the best at everything this expansion.

[Arawrabearialis]

No, except it is not garbage. You can be mediocre in one expansion, it is okay. Basically, stop QQing just because bears arent the best at everything this expansion.

I see, you don't actually have anything constructive to contribute to the conversation so you're just here to stir the pot.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

No, except it is not garbage. You can be mediocre in one expansion, it is okay. Basically, stop QQing just because bears arent the best at everything this expansion.

Paladins and Demon Hunters are mediocre.
Warriors and druids need help.
Have you actually tanked a mythic raid boss as guardian this tier?

[exochaft]

Paladins and Demon Hunters are mediocre.
Warriors and druids need help.
Have you actually tanked a mythic raid boss as guardian this tier?

I normally boomy nowadays since finding ranged DPS seems to be harder than finding tanks, however I tank mythic Uldir on occasion. When we were doing mythic Zek'voz, I was tanking with a blood DK, who would announce each CD he'd use to cheese the tank swap mechanic and letting healers know they can ignore him for a while. Every time it was my turn to take the hits, I'd yell "to the face!"... because that's what bears do, take it to the face and hope the healers don't let me die. Here's the issue I ran into: since our self-healing doesn't scale, it really pales in comparison to self-healing that (for example) a Blood DK can do to combat burst damage without relying on external/personal CDs or longer/moderate CD abilities. This trickles over into M+, too, where I think the problem is much worse. When it comes to healer mana, while I may have taken slightly less damage than my BDK counter-part, the healers were a helluva lot more stressed about healing me since I couldn't heal up a good portion of that damage back like a BDK.

Now I don't want to make this an anti-BDK post, I was just using it as an example, however it just highlights one aspect of the entire package. I tend to gauge my bear's performance on how much damage I can contribute, how much I can minimize the effort healers need to put into keeping me alive, as well as whatever utility I can provide my to my group that it needs. In general, I'd say the design philosophy would be to have all tanks have strengths and weaknesses in these categories, so you could have a tank that performs really well in one category while perhaps performing average in the others in comparison to other tanks. Going by this metric, bears would likely be below average in all three categories compared to other tanks (with prot warriors in a similar situation) in BfA. Even in Legion at the pinnacle of bear power, we weren't the top tank in all three categories, hence why in M+ you saw BDK's and bear (and eventually VDH's) in the high keys. I think that gets lost on many people that even at our most powerful, we were on par with BDK's in M+.

Now, I won't go into how I'd rank other tanks in these categories, as it changes depending upon the content, but I think most people can make educated guesses as to how other tanks rank based upon their experiences. However, my solution wouldn't be to nerf the top tanks into the ground, but bring everyone else up.

[Arawrabearialis]

I tend to gauge my bear's performance on how much damage I can contribute, how much I can minimize the effort healers need to put into keeping me alive, as well as whatever utility I can provide my to my group that it needs. In general, I'd say the design philosophy would be to have all tanks have strengths and weaknesses in these categories, so you could have a tank that performs really well in one category while perhaps performing average in the others in comparison to other tanks. Going by this metric, bears would likely be below average in all three categories compared to other tanks (with prot warriors in a similar situation) in BfA. Even in Legion at the pinnacle of bear power, we weren't the top tank in all three categories, hence why in M+ you saw BDK's and bear (and eventually VDH's) in the high keys. I think that gets lost on many people that even at our most powerful, we were on par with BDK's in M+.

Now, I won't go into how I'd rank other tanks in these categories, as it changes depending upon the content, but I think most people can make educated guesses as to how other tanks rank based upon their experiences. However, my solution wouldn't be to nerf the top tanks into the ground, but bring everyone else up.

You're using common sense, that's not terribly common with either the WoW community or the developers.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

I normally boomy nowadays since finding ranged DPS seems to be harder than finding tanks, however I tank mythic Uldir on occasion. When we were doing mythic Zek'voz, I was tanking with a blood DK, who would announce each CD he'd use to cheese the tank swap mechanic and letting healers know they can ignore him for a while. Every time it was my turn to take the hits, I'd yell "to the face!"... because that's what bears do, take it to the face and hope the healers don't let me die. Here's the issue I ran into: since our self-healing doesn't scale, it really pales in comparison to self-healing that (for example) a Blood DK can do to combat burst damage without relying on external/personal CDs or longer/moderate CD abilities. This trickles over into M+, too, where I think the problem is much worse. When it comes to healer mana, while I may have taken slightly less damage than my BDK counter-part, the healers were a helluva lot more stressed about healing me since I couldn't heal up a good portion of that damage back like a BDK.

Now I don't want to make this an anti-BDK post, I was just using it as an example, however it just highlights one aspect of the entire package. I tend to gauge my bear's performance on how much damage I can contribute, how much I can minimize the effort healers need to put into keeping me alive, as well as whatever utility I can provide my to my group that it needs. In general, I'd say the design philosophy would be to have all tanks have strengths and weaknesses in these categories, so you could have a tank that performs really well in one category while perhaps performing average in the others in comparison to other tanks. Going by this metric, bears would likely be below average in all three categories compared to other tanks (with prot warriors in a similar situation) in BfA. Even in Legion at the pinnacle of bear power, we weren't the top tank in all three categories, hence why in M+ you saw BDK's and bear (and eventually VDH's) in the high keys. I think that gets lost on many people that even at our most powerful, we were on par with BDK's in M+.

Now, I won't go into how I'd rank other tanks in these categories, as it changes depending upon the content, but I think most people can make educated guesses as to how other tanks rank based upon their experiences. However, my solution wouldn't be to nerf the top tanks into the ground, but bring everyone else up.

You did pick out the 1 fight Blood DK's are just insane because of AMS. But you're overall correct.
The healers I've played with have told me they like healing me more than the BDK though. The BDK they get used to not healing for a while and then suddenly he dies. They need to keep more of an eye on me, but they are never scared of me dying.
However this doesn't mean I like how bears are atm. We take way too much damage and have way too low hp compared to DK's.

I agree with your "Don't nerf, buff" approach. I don't mind DK's being really strong on Zekvoz and kinda strong everywhere else. I don't mind monks being FOTM right now. Just make us feel as good as them without making them feel worse. Make them feel envious.

It's a bit sad to see all this coverage on Protection Warriors and no noise surrounding guardian druids though.
Yes warriors have been underrepresented. But druids went from highest represented tank to second lowest represented tank in 1 raid.
Warriors were always below average in representation.

[dcc626]

You did pick out the 1 fight Blood DK's are just insane because of AMS. But you're overall correct.
The healers I've played with have told me they like healing me more than the BDK though. The BDK they get used to not healing for a while and then suddenly he dies. They need to keep more of an eye on me, but they are never scared of me dying.
However this doesn't mean I like how bears are atm. We take way too much damage and have way too low hp compared to DK's.

I agree with your "Don't nerf, buff" approach. I don't mind DK's being really strong on Zekvoz and kinda strong everywhere else. I don't mind monks being FOTM right now. Just make us feel as good as them without making them feel worse. Make them feel envious.

envious, like most tanks felt about bears for most of Legion as for FOTM monks, as long as stagger works like it does now they will always be top progression tanks. not quite what i think of as FOTM.

[Selerian]

Had secret hopes for 8.1 in order to pick up my bear again but it seems that I'll stick playing BrM. I seriously cannot believe a developer has played Guardian in M+ in BFA and felt it was fine. Vortex will kinda help but ffs
GIVE US BACK THRASH SLOW!!!

[NightZero88]

Had secret hopes for 8.1 in order to pick up my bear again but it seems that I'll stick playing BrM. I seriously cannot believe a developer has played Guardian in M+ in BFA and felt it was fine. Vortex will kinda help but ffs
GIVE US BACK THRASH SLOW!!!

We got ursol's...that's something I guess.

[Marrilaife]

You did pick out the 1 fight Blood DK's are just insane because of AMS. But you're overall correct.
The healers I've played with have told me they like healing me more than the BDK though. The BDK they get used to not healing for a while and then suddenly he dies. They need to keep more of an eye on me, but they are never scared of me dying.
However this doesn't mean I like how bears are atm. We take way too much damage and have way too low hp compared to DK's.

I'm really wondering how does this pan out post 8.1, because I've already seen bdk complaining on the forums that the last moment armor nerf made them even more spiky in raids.

But yes, big magic hits like on Zek'voz and Mythrax unfortunately favour some tanks more than others, since Blizzard decided to trim the tools tanks have to deal with magic damage, some still have a handful left, some are completely stripped.

It's a bit sad to see all this coverage on Protection Warriors and no noise surrounding guardian druids though.
Yes warriors have been underrepresented. But druids went from highest represented tank to second lowest represented tank in 1 raid.
Warriors were always below average in representation.

Warriors were below average in representation because outside of "5 mins of fame" they got in early Emerald Nightmare they weren't a fotm tank since TBC or so. It's been years and years of warriors rerolling to dks and monks, as usually at least one of those 2 was fotm.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

I'm really wondering how does this pan out post 8.1, because I've already seen bdk complaining on the forums that the last moment armor nerf made them even more spiky in raids.

But yes, big magic hits like on Zek'voz and Mythrax unfortunately favour some tanks more than others, since Blizzard decided to trim the tools tanks have to deal with magic damage, some still have a handful left, some are completely stripped.

Warriors were below average in representation because outside of "5 mins of fame" they got in early Emerald Nightmare they weren't a fotm tank since TBC or so. It's been years and years of warriors rerolling to dks and monks, as usually at least one of those 2 was fotm.

The magic comment looks like it will be a big deal going forward. In M+ especially magic damage is rampant. A lot of Uldir fights have over 30% magic damage done to tanks. (Ghuun AA, Zekvoz combo, Vectis DOT). And somehow they stripped some tanks of all magic mitigation, and lowered migitation on others.
Protection warriors are suddenly the best tanks to do tyranical underrot because the first boss is impossible to kill on 19+ without spell reflect.
Blood DK's healing through all of the magic damage is a big reason they are and remain king in M+, same for vengeance.
I have no in depth knowledge of the fights in Dazaralor yet, but if they keep tank mechanics in that do magic damage there is just no hope for guardian going forward.

On the representation comment:

I had a shower thought the other day that made me rethink the whole protection & guardian aren't played debate.
I looked at all the parses from Nighthold till now.
This is how that graph looks:



Looking at that data, it's obvious which classes need nerfs.
But if you want to use this data to help certain classes.
Would you help the class that has kept most of its playerbase throught multiple tiers, or the one that just saw the biggest drop in player participation since WOTLK.
Of course FOTM plays into this, druids were bound to lose some of its players that just started playing because it was the FOTM tank in NH.
But losing more than 60% of its players in 2 years? This is bigger than "But druids were FOTM in legion!!!!!".


Sources: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/

EDIT: I liked making this. I like the info this data gives. I'm going through all tiers I can find ^^.

EDIT2: I updated the chart with all data starting from WOD. It shows that the baseline % of druids playing was around 15% in HM. We were hit with the nerfbat right before launch, so I think this can be used as a baseline for hardcore druid players who keep playing through hard times. We are at half that percentage now.

[Marrilaife]

Protection warriors are suddenly the best tanks to do tyranical underrot because the first boss is impossible to kill on 19+ without spell reflect.

Aaaand that boss just got nerfed to stop spawning multiple clones.

Your chart shows again that warriors weren't fotm for ages, top tanks are monk, dk, druid and back to dk / monk again. Even the emerald nightmare bump, that was a whole expansion ago, didn't last long enough to make an impact, warriors got nerfed early enough that for many guilds it was still mid-progression except for the very top ones, and the fact warriors lasted into TOV could probably be attributed to the fact early legion rerolling / class swapping was extremely limited due to punitive setup of artifact knowledge.

The m+ meta that favours DKs since 7.2 until now makes them extremely popular too now that m+ is more important than ever in comparison to raiding (no raid tier sets, and recently titan residuum currency).

[axxey]

If DKs didnt have grip and mass grip I'd 100% prefer druid(or any other tank).

[Keren]

snip

good data presentation, thanks for that!

[Marrilaife]

If DKs didnt have grip and mass grip I'd 100% prefer druid(or any other tank).

Tbh the necessity of grip depends on dungeon and affixes. It's extremely useful on sanguine weeks and dungeons where there are ranged physical mobs (archers, gunners) you can't just silence / interrupt to get into melee, and for mobs like the king's rest miniboss that can get his lightning interrupted by grip, but not silences.

So evaluate per dungeon basis, if you prefer other tank over dk just take them for dungeons that don't 100% require mass grip. Also depends how big pulls are you making. Not every group is gonna do MDI deathballs that require mass grip and perfect kiting skills. In some cases people think they need blood dk (or frost mage, or rogue, etc.) and in the end they don't even utilize the strats that rely on these classes.

[exochaft]

Tbh the necessity of grip depends on dungeon and affixes. It's extremely useful on sanguine weeks and dungeons where there are ranged physical mobs (archers, gunners) you can't just silence / interrupt to get into melee, and for mobs like the king's rest miniboss that can get his lightning interrupted by grip, but not silences.

So evaluate per dungeon basis, if you prefer other tank over dk just take them for dungeons that don't 100% require mass grip. Also depends how big pulls are you making. Not every group is gonna do MDI deathballs that require mass grip and perfect kiting skills. In some cases people think they need blood dk (or frost mage, or rogue, etc.) and in the end they don't even utilize the strats that rely on these classes.

From the perspective of grip (and mass grip), certainly it's dungeon- and affix-dependent for extensive use, but it's still a pretty good ST (or Aoe) interrupt and positioning tool. What I think makes it slightly superior to similar displacement abilities, such as Typhoon, is that it's very controlled... think of it as using a chisel for detailing rocks versus a sledge hammer: both can do the job, but one can make a mess of things and can require specific positioning requirements to not mess things up. I suppose bears should be thankful that we can use Typhoon in bear form?

At this point, it's mostly about tanks and their ability to effectively deal with magic damage and/or self-heal. As a bear, we can certainly take a good amount of physical damage, but add just one mob that spams Shadowbolt or applies a stacking poison/disease debuff and we suddenly are extremely vulnerable to the point where some DPS classes survive magic attacks better than bears. At low keys, this isn't an issue. At high keys, it certainly becomes an issue since the amount we can heal is a fixed percentage while the damage we take is ever increasing. In Legion, I believe it was the combination of MoU and scaling FR heals on a relatively short CD that made us massively more powerful than we are today. With both gone along with removed and/or reduced uptime of DR cooldowns, it's apparent why magic damage is our bane to the extreme.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how Blizz determines tanks balance nowadays. I remember a while back (maybe it was MoP or Cata, can't remember) there was a blue post discussing the process of determining how to balance and tweak tanks, and it revolved around bears being the starting point. Due to the design of bears back then, it was very difficult to accurately model our mitigation in various raid situations, so they'd adjust bears and the content to meet their expectations, then they'd base all other tanks upon said adjustments. Not saying that's what happens nowadays, but from their alpha/beta chatter Blizz intended tanks to be like bears in terms of vulnerability to magic damage and the need for healer attention... but we feel more like the exception than the rule.

[Marrilaife]

As a bear, we can certainly take a good amount of physical damage, but add just one mob that spams Shadowbolt or applies a stacking poison/disease debuff and we suddenly are extremely vulnerable to the point where some DPS classes survive magic attacks better than bears.

That reminds me, why exactly poison / curse dispel isn't usable in bear form? Monks and paladins can use their dispels as tanks and it isn't exactly gamebreaking and is considered a part of their utility kit.

[CenariusTheForestLord]

That reminds me, why exactly poison / curse dispel isn't usable in bear form? Monks and paladins can use their dispels as tanks and it isn't exactly gamebreaking and is considered a part of their utility kit.

It is part of our toolkit. You simple ursol's vortex typhoon, get out of bear form, dispell, get back into bearform and start from 0 rage.
It is clearly usable.