Raids are dead. M+ is the future. This is an epic statement by JDOTB

[xalai]

Epic statement by JDOTB

Raids are dead. M+ is the future.

Finally, and on a kind of unrelated note, I’d like to address Ion’s point that M+ should have loot disadvantages because “the activity requires four other people as opposed to coordinating and scheduling a full raid group.” I couldn’t disagree more vehemently with that line of logic, and it feels like the player base is being punished for the sins of the developers. The idea that players should be extra rewarded for putting up with the headache of finding 20 players that can all commit to playing at the same time is questionable at best. If Blizzard recognizes that the raid format is burdensome and onerous, maybe try fixing the raid format instead of incentivizing players to put up with it by throwing more loot at them. Part of the reason M+ has ascended so rapidly is because *gasp* it’s accessible. You don’t need five officers, a webpage, a Discord server and a recruitment post that you bump daily to do a +16 key. Blizzard has struck gold with M+, and rather than lean into it, Blizzard has decided that it needs to prop up raiding with favorable loot systems. Raiding is an anachronism from an era where massively multiplayer was actually the selling point. Now every game has persistent massive online worlds, and raiding has ceased to be spectacle and instead turned into homework. Let it die. M+ is the future.

Source: https://www.wowhead.com/news=287612/...ted-and-teemin

[Doomchicken]

Guy has opinion. In other news, sky is blue.

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In all seriousness though, did this really need a thread?

[Nikkaszal]

It's amusing seeing as Uldir is an amazing raid

[Malikath]

then WoW will finally die, good.

[Sativex]

And JDOTB is who? I'm serious, I have no idea who you are talking about.

[Deleted]

I disagree wholeheartedly with his subjective opinion.

[Ophenia]

As RPG point of view, raids are more important though. Especially in BfA where 80% of the dungeons don't make sense or are pointless story-wise.

I can understand that in this 2018's videogame world where everything must be fast food content with as few people/communication as possible, raids look tedious, but please, they're still major elements of any game.

Who is JDOTB though ? Judging by this nonsensical name, a legendary Youtube-nobody I guess ?

[Risale]

Blizzard has struck gold with M+, and rather than lean into it, Blizzard has decided that it needs to prop up raiding with favorable loot systems

LOL, current loot system in Raids and M+ keys is a disaster.

[Nitros14]

Mythic+ is terrible and I don't want to play a game without raids.

[Otimus]

I do think, at the very least, lower difficulty level raids should scale down to at least 8 people. Less would be even better, but I don't see how that'd be possible without a fundamental design shift. But 8 seems doable. (Maybe 6 or 7? I don't think 5 would be possible.)

[seleri]

The guy is forgetting that casuals love LFR and casuals pay the bills, not high level m+ players. Raids are the main PvE experience and always will be.

[psyquest]

raiding has been playing catch up since the removal of 10 man. With current level of loot in mythic + and how badly itemised raids are, it is likely that raid participation will take a hit.
1 .To fix this, blizzard can either make loot in raid way better than mm+.
2 . Make raids more accessible.
3 . Make raid 10 man again.
4 . Nerf mythic+ loot gain.

1. Currently untrue, we shall see if next raid is better.
2. They cant make raid simpler, it would kill raiding.
3. They refused again and again to consider bringing back 10 man mythic.
4. Imaging the outcry, this would kill mythic+

So what is the solution for raid, considering one can just spam mythic+ and keep getting flooded with loot?

[Biomega]

In all seriousness though, did this really need a thread?

Why not? It's worth discussing.

The point isn't nearly as hyperbolic as people think. While I personally don't think raiding should "die", I am in full agreement that large organized raids are probably a game concept that is out of fashion these days. This has to do with many things, shifts and changes across gaming in general, RPGs in particular, and so on. People prefer more bite-sized content to the "whole cake" approach of raiding. People like to structure their time more freely - no more scheduling 4-hour raid nights, but instead hopping in for a half or full hour of play, and then back out to do something else.

I still think raiding has a place in WoW, for various reasons. But the value of M+ in sating a consumer demand that's unquestioningly there shouldn't be underestimated. That's essentially the point that JDOTB is trying to make (albeit with a great deal more hyperbole). Blizz's decision to push for advantages in raid loot is questionable, but that, too is understandable - they're worried that diluting WoW's MMORPG identity by incentivizing people to farm the heckin' out of M+ because it's infinite loot is going to turn out detrimental for the long-term health of the game. And looking at Diablo III and some of the concerns voiced there, they might well be right.

Still, even though both sides have merit, I think there's a lot of room for improvement, and for systems that aren't as blatant and egregious as Azerite has turned out to be for many people.

[Baza]

For me, and many others, raids are way more accessible than m+. All I have to do is be in a raiding guild and log when it is raid time. For m+ you need people from the guild who actually want to do it, and even though you need only 4 more guys, it's way harder than it sounds, usually there's not enough interest, so I need to pug some, or maybe even all the other party members. And most of the time in pugs, it's not fun. Since the start of BFA, about 1/2 of the m+ pugs I've been in disbanded mid-dungeon, 1/4 didn't finish in time, and only the last 1/4 finish in time. Not fun. Raiding, if done in a relaxed and fun environment, are much more fun.

[Wildmoon]

Not exactly. The more accurate way to say it is the smaller-sized group is the future. The scale of the instances themselves do not really have to change but I think the size of the group doing them will gradually move toward smaller size.

I think we will eventually end up with big dungeons(raid-sized) and small dungeons(what we have now.) with no raid.

[zeidrich]

If the claim is that raiding is being propped up by the loot system, why complain about that? You are insinuating that raids should be good enough even if they had an unfavorable loot system.

If that's the case, then Mythic+ doesn't need a more robust loot system either. The content alone should be good enough even without loot, right?

[Fudal]

And JDOTB is who? I'm serious, I have no idea who you are talking about.

He is the healer for the <Method> NA Mythic+ team. He streams M+ run on twitch all the time

[Therougetitan]

Raiding is played more with all difficulties in mind. Saying raiding is dead is also just an exaggeration. Did they not pay attention when Method streaming became the most viewed thing on twitch? Mythic dungeons have never done that.

[mysticx]

The guy is forgetting that casuals love LFR and casuals pay the bills, not high level m+ players. Raids are the main PvE experience and always will be.

This pretty much, i'd love to see participation figures for raids (per difficulty) and Mythic+ side-by-side.

The reason Blizz love Mythic+ so much is because it's not much work for them, the same instances as normal and heroic mode, mobs scaled up by a preset formula, with a few random affixes thrown in, and the Mythic+ crowd will be running in that hamster wheel for 2 years...

[La]

M+ is boring, easy, and nothing every changes or is difficult, outside of more damage and more health. You pray your DPS know how to DPS, and your healer and tank can handle the affixes. Why should something like that be more rewarding than raiding, which is arguably much more difficult?

The "Challenge" in a game should be raids, it shouldn't be the challenge of dealing with the mentally challenged, and hoping they're bright enough to get through.