1. #3081
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'm open to other orders existing...or being created.. As it is we've the general category of "force user."
    Jedi, Sith, umm...Revanite?
    What next?
    Force Scientists? https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jal_Shey
    Fod Sparta los wuth, ahrk okaaz gekenlok kruziik himdah, dinok fent kos rozol do daan wah jer do Samos. Ahrk haar do Heracles fent motaad, fah strunmah vonun fent yolein ko yol
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  2. #3082
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yes she has.

    "Luke Skywalker : Because she saw your spirit. Your heart. Rey, some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don't face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost. "

    That was before the ending where it was confirmed by all the jedi ghosts that she was in fact a Jedi. Master, knight, padawan, youngling are all just titles and made up ranks. All of you keep looking for every little loophole to deny what is plain and simple. Rey is a Jedi and Leia is a jedi that never finished her training. It is even implied that the vision Leia had was setting up the events that would help Rey on her journey. But Rey studied from Jedi texts, healed a kyber crystal through jedi techniques, was taught by a Jedi and a half-trained Jedi, was endorsed by hundreds of past Jedi among other things not covered by those.
    Like, I get what you're trying to argue, but it really doesn't follow.

    The Jedi are not the Force. They aren't even the representatives of the Light Side of the Force. They're a single monastic cult with a particular set of principles. Unless you're expressing those dogmatic principles, unless you've been inculcated in the rituals and are upholding them actively, you're not a Jedi.

    This is why Ahsoka is not a Jedi. She was raised and trained as a Jedi, full padawan-and-knight stuff, and then she left the order. In the Mandalorian, she's pretty damned clear she is not Jedi and does not think of herself that way, even if most people in the Galaxy just think "Force-user = Jedi". And it's not because Ahsoka isn't "good enough"; she left the Order because they screwed her over unfairly. She's more ethical than the Jedi.

    You're trying to connect "literally any non-Sith training in the Force" with "being a Jedi", and that's just . . . not how Star Wars works. Rey got some training with Luke, before rejecting his training and doing her own thing. She was endorsed by hundreds of past Jedi, but there isn't any reason to see that as a Jedi thing, rather than a Light Side of the Force thing. And the two are not interchangeable. Unless you want to claim that Ahsoka is either a Jedi (she's not), or has fallen to the Dark Side (nooope). And that's without getting into further canonical Light-Side users who aren't Jedi.


  3. #3083
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    So at best you're saying she had to leave the Order and stopped practicing the Jedi ways, which would still mean she isn't a Jedi, just like several other canon charaters who left the Order.
    Have to stop training doesn't mean the same thing as leaving the order. It is never stated that she left the order just that she stopped progressing on her path. Training Rey to be a Jedi shows that it is different then other ex-members, like Ashoka, because Leia still believed in the order and trained others in its ways. When Luke died Leia would technically be the highest ranking Jedi. The ghost of Luke, and Leia, taught Rey who quickly attained the highest known Jedi (both because of her training and the death of Leia).

    I don't think it was ever clarified if any Jedi from Luke's Order escaped. Just like we have dozens now that escaped order 66 it is always a possible plot point. But it is silly to say that Leia wasn't jedi enough simply because she stopped training. It was never said she left the order only that she did not complete her training.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    You're trying to connect "literally any non-Sith training in the Force" with "being a Jedi", and that's just . . . not how Star Wars works.
    No I am not. I have never attempted to concect literally any non-sith as being a Jedi. I have connected a person that was almost a full Jedi but stopped training. I have connected a person that trained at least one person in the Jedi arts. Stop being dishonest by saying I am trying to argue something I never had and actually read the post I made.

    Also stop trying to put your emotions into Ahsoka. She didn't leave the order because she was more ethical then the Jedi. She lost faith in the council, and by extenstion the Order, because of how quickly the turned on her. She was innocent and once proven was accepted back but refused. That has nothing to do with being more ethical or not and it was her choice to leave. She could easily become a Jedi again if she personally decided to since the only thing stopping that was herself. We all know that the order was flawed and could be corrupted. It was part of the reason why it fell as it was in decline and often worked against itself. Yoda himself expressed doubt during some of their decisions.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  4. #3084
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    because Leia still believed in the order and trained others in its ways. When Luke died Leia would technically be the highest ranking Jedi.
    She can believe in the order and train others without actually being a Jedi. She walked away from that path in order to protect the galaxy, so technically even though she was formally trained as a Jedi, she may not be an actual Jedi herself.

  5. #3085
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    She can believe in the order and train others without actually being a Jedi. She walked away from that path in order to protect the galaxy, so technically even though she was formally trained as a Jedi, she may not be an actual Jedi herself.
    Being retired doesn't stop you from being something. If she is still teaching the Jedi ways and embracing it then for all intents and purposes she is a Jedi. She didn't walk away from the path to protect the galaxy but to protect her unborn son. You don't only become a Jedi when you complete your training. Even if that were true for the old order this would have been Luke's order.

    Oh, Luke, I hope I’m doing this right, she thought. Leia was no Jedi Master, but she had learned from the best. And not just from Luke; over the years she’d occasionally heard the voice of Obi-Wan Kenobi through the Force, and even more rarely, that of Yoda. Some days it had felt as though she’d learned from the Force itself. She was first and foremost a politician and a general, but she had accepted her Jedi legacy and embraced it as best she could.

    And maybe that’s exactly what Rey needed: training in the Force not from a formal Master, but rather someone grounded in the everyday minutiae of life and survival. Obi-Wan had failed to keep Vader from the dark side. Luke had failed the same way with Ben. She could not fail Rey
    She was glad for this one, though. It would be the key to training Rey. Leia and Rey were different, the last remnants of a dead Order, and together, they would carve a new path.
    https://www.starwars.com/news/star-w...n-leia-excerpt

    The above is from the novelization of the movies. I think it pretty clearly shows that Leia considers herself to be a Jedi but not a formal master. The second excerpt also reinforces this. I haven't read the novelizations to see if there are another hints or clues. I think it also shows how the Jedi Order during the clone wars was flawed and in decline. Similar to Ahsoka's story of being kicked out. Leia offered a different perspective for both training and the teachings of the Jedi because she didn't close herself off to the Galaxy.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-08 at 10:54 PM.
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  6. #3086
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    https://www.starwars.com/news/star-w...n-leia-excerpt

    The above is from the novelization of the movies. I think it pretty clearly shows that Leia considers herself to be a Jedi but not a formal master. The second excerpt also reinforces this. I haven't read the novelizations to see if there are another hints or clues. I think it also shows how the Jedi Order during the clone wars was flawed and in decline. Similar to Ahsoka's story of being kicked out. Leia offered a different perspective for both training and the teachings of the Jedi because she didn't close herself off to the Galaxy.
    Maybe its just me, but what I read from that excerpt is that Leia knows shes the only person left that knows of Jedi doctrine and teaching, not that she still considers herself a Jedi in itself.

    Its like saying you know the ins and outs of a roman centurion's training regimen, that doesn't make you a Roman centurion.

    She even admits it, She and Rey are "the last remnants of a dead Order", that means she's not an active Jedi or a practitioner of their doctrine, just a trained person on said topic.

    Leia is the equivalent of a historian teaching someone interested in martial combat techniques of a dead order of knights; Rey is the student that uses said knowledge to create a new, but different, order of knights. They are not the same Order, and in this regard, neither was Luke's; despite his best efforts to resurrect it in the purest form he could muster.
    Fod Sparta los wuth, ahrk okaaz gekenlok kruziik himdah, dinok fent kos rozol do daan wah jer do Samos. Ahrk haar do Heracles fent motaad, fah strunmah vonun fent yolein ko yol
    .

  7. #3087
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Being retired doesn't stop you from being something. If she is still teaching the Jedi ways and embracing it then for all intents and purposes she is a Jedi. She didn't walk away from the path to protect the galaxy but to protect her unborn son. You don't only become a Jedi when you complete your training. Even if that were true for the old order this would have been Luke's order.
    But she never formally adopted its practices and aesthetics, she simply knows the training and its ways. Whatever they're forging for the future, it's a new system, a new order. I think that's the whole point of calling it 'Rise of Skywalker', because Rey has adopted this new path and new creed, and while it's thematically similar to the Jedi Order, it's not bound by any of its past doctrines.

    I mean in a way, the Sith having broken off from the Jedi is similar form. This is a divergent path, simply without the 'Dark Side'. It's a new Order built from the ashes of the old, not strictly continuing the old ways. Even with The Last Jedi's messed up continuity, I think Yoda burning the books and the movie title itself was a point in that direction. And while yes, they did contradict that a bit by having Leia be full blown 'Jedi' trained in RoS, I personally didn't see her as a formal Jedi at all. Luke was literally the Last Jedi, thus the name of the movie. Leia disconnected herself from the order as much as Kylo, even if she didn't go Dark Side. That they both retained some of its training and its abilities doesn't mean they're Jedi.

    It's heavily implied that the legacy of the Jedi lives on through Rey, while the actual Jedi Order and the Skywalkers are forever gone.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-08 at 11:32 PM.

  8. #3088
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    She even admits it, She and Rey are "the last remnants of a dead Order", that means she's not an active Jedi or a practitioner of their doctrine, just a trained person on said topic.
    But that means that Yoda, Ben, and Luke were also not Jedi but merely remnants of a dead order. It is semantics to make a disintiction between the old Republic Jedi Order, Ben's Jedi Order, Yoda's Jedi Order, Luke's Jedi Order, Leia's Jedi Order, and Rey's Jedi Order. Everyone is still a Jedi right?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But she never formally adopted its practices and aesthetics, she simply knows the training and its ways. Whatever they're forging for the future, it's a new system, a new order. I think that's the whole point of calling it 'Rise of Skywalker', because Rey has adopted this new path and new creed, and while it's thematically similar to the Jedi Order, it's not bound by any of its past doctrines.
    So to be a Jedi requires you to dress like one? Lol. A new order of Jedi still makes her a Jedi.
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  9. #3089
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So to be a Jedi requires you to dress like one? Lol. A new order of Jedi still makes her a Jedi.
    Luke was literally called 'the Last Jedi', which is why Leia and Rei were not considered to be Jedi at that point.

    Rey potentially carries that into the future by the end of RoS, but the movie ends without fully regarding anything about a future Jedi order at all.

    Do we know she continues the Jedi Order yet?

  10. #3090
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yes she has.

    "Luke Skywalker : Because she saw your spirit. Your heart. Rey, some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don't face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost. "

    That was before the ending where it was confirmed by all the jedi ghosts that she was in fact a Jedi. Master, knight, padawan, youngling are all just titles and made up ranks. All of you keep looking for every little loophole to deny what is plain and simple. Rey is a Jedi and Leia is a jedi that never finished her training. It is even implied that the vision Leia had was setting up the events that would help Rey on her journey. But Rey studied from Jedi texts, healed a kyber crystal through jedi techniques, was taught by a Jedi and a half-trained Jedi, was endorsed by hundreds of past Jedi among other things not covered by those.
    Yes, Rey is a Jedi. But, Jedi Master is a specific title. Calling Rey a Jedi Master is wrong, because we don't know if she is even a full knight (though it is implied.)

    I am not looking for loophole. That argument I could say you are literally reading too far into everything to make your argument adding your own head canon as a fact. Yes, Leia trained as a Jedi and could be treated as a Jedi in certain context, but calling Leia a Jedi is factually wrong. Calling Rey a Jedi Master at the end of RoS is factually wrong because it is never stated she was even a knight. The Title Jedi is not equal to any specific title of rank. A Padawan is a Jedi, just as a Master is. Luke calling Rey a Jedi does not in any way shape or form grant her the rank of Master.

    Power does not make one a Jedi Master. Ability does not make one a Jedi Master. Even knowledge does not make one a Jedi Master.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  11. #3091
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Luke was literally called 'the Last Jedi', which is why Leia and Rei were not considered to be Jedi at that point. Rey potentially carries that into the future by the end of RoS, but the movie ends without fully regarding anything about a future Jedi order at all. Do we know she continues the Jedi Order yet?
    The problem with that argument is it was said by Kylo Ren. It doesn't have to be truth just because it was uttered by a character. You also ignore that Luke later said to Kylo that he won't be killing the last jedi. Which refers to Leia, Rey, both of those two, or some one else all together. The movies quite clearly set up that being a Jedi transcend the structure of the Order. So there being no order to belong to or not is irrelevant to any of this.

    If there are to be Jedi after Luke then it will have to start with Leia and Rey as those are the only two known to be teaching and following the Jedi ways to some degree.
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  12. #3092
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But that means that Yoda, Ben, and Luke were also not Jedi but merely remnants of a dead order. It is semantics to make a disintiction between the old Republic Jedi Order, Ben's Jedi Order, Yoda's Jedi Order, Luke's Jedi Order, Leia's Jedi Order, and Rey's Jedi Order. Everyone is still a Jedi right?
    Not really?

    Obi-Wan and Yoda were actual members of the Republic's Jedi order, whether or not the majority Order died off is irrelevant in their regard. They were in exile, but active practitioners of the Jedi doctrine of their time.

    Luke is not a member of the old Jedi order, he's already disqualified due to his unorthodox training at the hands of ben and Yoda. His father also getting the exception for being too old in his time doesn't revoke the fact that Anakin still went through the trials to become an officially recognized knight, Luke did not.

    Luke's Jedi order is not a resurrected Republic Jedi order, it has a majority of the doctrine, but critical changes on how it approaches emotion and how to utilize it. Ben and Yoda definitely would not agree on that standpoint if they were still alive and would have viewed it as a deviant sect that isn't officially recognized as part of their original order. In other words, Luke's order is Jedi in name, but not in practice.

    Leia is the last person alive that knows anything about both versions of said orders via Luke, but she never completed her training in either order's practition; she's initiated in the teaching, but not mastered enough to be fully recognized as a Jedi. She can only pass along what knowledge she has to Rey because no one else can even come close to training her.

    Lets put it another way, if Ahsoka was the only survivor of Order 66, and Ben and Yoda died in that event, She would be the last person capable of teaching Luke the ways of the Jedi order despite no longer being a practitioner or member of said order. Luke could go on and claim he's a Jedi, but no one alive can officiate him and recognize him as such. He's technically a pretender Jedi despite having much of their skillset.
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  13. #3093
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, Rey is a Jedi. But, Jedi Master is a specific title. Calling Rey a Jedi Master is wrong, because we don't know if she is even a full knight (though it is implied.)
    There is no order left to give a rank. Luke couldn't be a master because he had no Padawan that reach Knight. There was no council to give Luke, or anyone after him, official ranks. You are definitely looking for a loop hole here. Same way with you saying that Leia can be called a Jedi but it is factually incorrect. If you admit that she can be called one in your subjective "certain context" then it isn't factually incorrect.

    Everything points to Leia still being part of Luke's order even if she didn't complete training. She also was training Rey to be a Jedi which is hard to do if you are not a Jedi yourself. Otherwise Rey wouldn't be a Jedi but just a light side force user who learned some Jedi tricks. Right? But we know from all of the lore that Rey is considered a Jedi with out following any of the rules and trials that was created by the old Jedi Order.
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  14. #3094
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Luke could go on and claim he's a Jedi, but no one alive can officiate him and recognize him as such. He's technically a pretender Jedi despite having much of their skillset.
    He was recognized by Yoda in Return of the Jedi. His thesis defense was to confront his father, which he did. It's as official as it was possible to be under the circumstances.

  15. #3095
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    He was recognized by Yoda in Return of the Jedi. His thesis defense was to confront his father, which he did. It's as official as it was possible to be under the circumstances.
    That was under the hypothetical, but yes: Luke is officially recognized by Yoda in the actual canon despite him not really qualifying in any respect to doctrine. Luke is the last person alive to even come close to a real Jedi master by the time of ROTJ, hence why he gets away with being called one.
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  16. #3096
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Obi-Wan and Yoda were actual members of the Republic's Jedi order, whether or not the majority Order died off is irrelevant in their regard. They were in exile, but active practitioners of the Jedi doctrine of their time.
    Oh so they can be in exile but still a Jedi but Leia can't stop her training and still be a Jedi? Weird double standard right? Also how can you say that Leia wouldn't be a Jedi while also saying that Luke is making up everything as he goes. You can't use old standards for being a Jedi while also saying those old standards don't exist anymore. Again a double standard to exclude a specific person.

    She couldn't even be a remnant of a dead order by your entire argument. Because the Jedi Order died with order 66. And Leia was only ever trained by Luke who you just said is a non-jedi and simply "stole" the name. So Leia wouldn't be the remnants of a dead order. She would just be a force user by your own arguments. All of this just because you want to go by your own head canon rather then accept that the canon indicates Leia as a Jedi.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    That was under the hypothetical, but yes: Luke is officially recognized by Yoda in the actual canon despite him not really qualifying in any respect to doctrine. Luke is the last person alive to even come close to a real Jedi master by the time of ROTJ, hence why he gets away with being called one.
    Actually he considers himself to still be a knight because he hasn't fulfilled the requirements to be a Jedi Master. Those requirements are to have a padawan that attains the rank of Knight. It is why Anakin was not given the rank of master but a seat on the council. This doubt of his rank is even explored in the Disney era canon. But if a Jedi master can over ride it then Luke can easily say a person is a Jedi even if they retire from training. Right?

    Or are we going to continue the double standards?
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  17. #3097
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Oh so they can be in exile but still a Jedi but Leia can't stop her training and still be a Jedi? Weird double standard right? Also how can you say that Leia wouldn't be a Jedi while also saying that Luke is making up everything as he goes. You can't use old standards for being a Jedi while also saying those old standards don't exist anymore. Again a double standard to exclude a specific person.

    She couldn't even be a remnant of a dead order by your entire argument. Because the Jedi Order died with order 66. And Leia was only ever trained by Luke who you just said is a non-jedi and simply "stole" the name. So Leia wouldn't be the remnants of a dead order. She would just be a force user by your own arguments. All of this just because you want to go by your own head canon rather then accept that the canon indicates Leia as a Jedi.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Actually he considers himself to still be a knight because he hasn't fulfilled the requirements to be a Jedi Master. Those requirements are to have a padawan that attains the rank of Knight. It is why Anakin was not given the rank of master but a seat on the council. This doubt of his rank is even explored in the Disney era canon. But if a Jedi master can over ride it then Luke can easily say a person is a Jedi even if they retire from training. Right?

    Or are we going to continue the double standards?
    That is not the requirement to be a jedi master.

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_Master

    A Jedi Master was a Jedi Knight who had been offered a higher ranking within Jedi Order as a result of a Jedi Grand Master seeing the Knight fit for the position.
    Last edited by Orange Joe; 2021-06-09 at 01:26 AM.
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  18. #3098
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    That is not the requirement to be a jedi master. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_Master
    "Years after the Great Jedi Purge and the Galactic Civil War, Luke Skywalker attempted to train his own generation of Jedi and was considered a Jedi Master, though it was merely a role he played not having formally earned such a title until posthumously completing said role as Padawan Rey's mentor as a Force spirit."

    That part of the wookieepedia seems to disagree. Having a padawan to some degree plays a role beyond that of the current council consenting. Also this article, https://screenrant.com/star-wars-jed...nks-explained/, is based on a canon book and it states "a Jedi Master is a Knight who has taken and trained a Padawan to Knighthood. " Though that book and article both seem to have errors with even some parts of the book contradict other parts of the book.
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  19. #3099
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    "Years after the Great Jedi Purge and the Galactic Civil War, Luke Skywalker attempted to train his own generation of Jedi and was considered a Jedi Master, though it was merely a role he played not having formally earned such a title until posthumously completing said role as Padawan Rey's mentor as a Force spirit."

    That part of the wookieepedia seems to disagree. Having a padawan to some degree plays a role beyond that of the current council consenting. Also this article, https://screenrant.com/star-wars-jed...nks-explained/, is based on a canon book and it states "a Jedi Master is a Knight who has taken and trained a Padawan to Knighthood. " Though that book and article both seem to have errors with even some parts of the book contradict other parts of the book.
    Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master.
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  20. #3100
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The very next section says Rey is a Master even though she’s never had any students and it’s only possible she will take some on.
    " At some point after, while attempting to restore galactic peace, Rey became a Jedi Master" is on the wookieepedia and is stated to be from the same book I mentioned in my last response. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Book I will see if I can do a preview of it to look for better context.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master.
    Ah right. Lets ignore the information that proves you wrong just because it proves you wrong. Are there always exceptions? Sure but the exceptions are not the rule and the Old Republic Jedi Order was always shown to be stubborn. That is one of the reasons given for why Qui-gon turned down a position on the council.

    "Qui-Gon knew the Council to be wrong about many things. He felt they'd allowed the Jedi Order to become a sort of chancellor's police, rather than concentrating on knowing the Force. Yes, they were wise to refuse to rule - but unwise to simply accept the status quo. Short-sighted, to lose touch with the living Force by spending so much of their time and energy on enforcing laws that could as easily be left to civilian authorities. Immoral, to refuse to act against evils such as slavery."
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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