[TV] The Mandalorian (*Spoilers*)

[Relikk]

And if you knew anything about either of them, you'll know what you said was 100% false.

The point is we don't know them. What people say publically does not always equate to what they think or feel personally.

[rhorle]

Alienating people with a 40 year investment in the franchise wasn't a wise thing to do and they realise that now.

The amusing part is your entire argument was used when the prequels came out. All that has happened is the goal posts have be moved to the sequels. The people that get alienated are just looking for excuses to hate or be alienated. They weren't the greatest of movies but none of the Star Wars movies have been.

[Biomega]

They weren't the greatest of movies but none of the Star Wars movies have been.

That's a gross oversimplification. Nobody is asking for "the greatest of movies", that's not really a realistic standard for SF popcorn space operas. But it's a spectrum - there's MASSIVE space between "the greatest of movies" and what the sequels were. It's not just a one-or-the-other binary, and to portray it as such is highly disingenuous.

[rhorle]

That's a gross oversimplification. Nobody is asking for "the greatest of movies", that's not really a realistic standard for SF popcorn space operas. But it's a spectrum - there's MASSIVE space between "the greatest of movies" and what the sequels were. It's not just a one-or-the-other binary, and to portray it as such is highly disingenuous.

The only one portraying it as binary is yourself by your assumptions. I merely said the movies were not the greatest. The original movies were not masterworks themselves on the story aspect. So while the sequels are worse then the originals are all middle of the spectrum. People love to hold the originals to some high standard but it is mostly rose tinted glasses.

And like I said the prequels were hated by a lot when they came out. The child actor for Anakin even had a lot of emotional/mental problems partly from the hate around his role and the movies. But now some of those same people hold the prequels in higher esteem because it is fashionable to hate on the sequels.

[Shadowferal]

They were so trapped they all came out alive and killed the emperor.... Yeah thats not a Gary Stu at all....

His fight wasn't so much against the emperor, as it was against the persona called Darth Vader. And to win that fight he needed his father ro come back.

[Triceron]

The only one portraying it as binary is yourself by your assumptions. I merely said the movies were not the greatest. The original movies were not masterworks themselves on the story aspect. So while the sequels are worse then the originals are all middle of the spectrum. People love to hold the originals to some high standard but it is mostly rose tinted glasses.

So if the original trilogy is just the middle of the spectrum, what would be regarded as greater? Collectively, fans consider the original trilogy to be greater than the rest that followed. So does that mean everything is just gauged on a middle spectrum and everything else comparatively below that middle standard?

Does that not relatively make the middle standard the greatest then?

[rhorle]

Does that not relatively make the middle standard the greatest then?

Do I really need to explain to you that there have been more movies created then just Star Wars movies? Lol.

[Darththeo]

The point is we don't know them. What people say publically does not always equate to what they think or feel personally.

Correct, we don't know them PERSONALLY, but we are still able to judge their responses.

And Kennedy like Lucas has admitted to missteps.

So you are wrong. Filoni speaks of the sequels similar to how he speaks about the rest of Star Wars. There is no clear indication of an act.

[Triceron]

Do I really need to explain to you that there have been more movies created then just Star Wars movies? Lol.

Ah, you were talking about everything beyond the franchise, understandable now.

[qwerty123456]

That goes for turning him dark side too not just killing him fyi.


Hell, look how little it took to turn Anakin and he was trained as a child. but Luke is able to resist his father AND the emporer turning him.

Then those 2 after failing to turn him were also unable to kill him.

totally not a OP Gary Stu

They did temporarily turn him. And Anakin turned for love. Luke never really had a good temptation for him to fully turn.

And Rey won because Palpatine is an idiot who doesn't stop shooting lightning when a lightsaber is reflecting it back at him.

She won because she was able to force teleport a saber to Kylo so he could survive and then give his lifeforce to her so then Palpatine could be an idiot and continually shoot lighting at her while she reflected back at him.

[Darththeo]

They did temporarily turn him. And Anakin turned for love. Luke never really had a good temptation for him to fully turn.



She won because she was able to force teleport a saber to Kylo so he could survive and then give his lifeforce to her so then Palpatine could be an idiot and continually shoot lighting at her while she reflected back at him.

And she wouldn't have won without Palpatine being an idiot. The rest just got her to that point.

[eschatological]

The thing is, Rian's style just didn't match what was expected of Star Wars.

If people were looking for a fresh take on Star Wars that subverts expectations, then it'd be fine. But that isn't what is expected of a movie for the mainline sequel trilogy. I think had the Last Jedi been some side story or spinoff like what they did with the Star Wars Visions animated stuff, then it'd be much better accepted.

Why do people expect that? Like, the goal of the Disney sequels was, I thought, to refresh the series and revitalize it for a new universe. TFA was supposed to be a deliberate mirror of ANH with new characters meeting with old ones to bridge the series, most of the old ones were supposed to die in the course of the trilogy, and there were supposed to be new things explored. It's why they outright de-canonized most of the EU and said "this might not be permanent, we might add some of this stuff back in in a more cohesive manner."

My impression was always that the new SW, even the mainline films, were supposed to move past the Skywalker saga, the black and white fairy tale, the space opera aspects of the original, and become something bigger than that.

[qwerty123456]

And she wouldn't have won without Palpatine being an idiot. The rest just got her to that point.

Of course she would have won no matter what. She was the hero of a Disney film. Palpatine being an idiot was just how JJ chose get to the inevitable ending which is kinda hilarious given he gave her god tier force powers and the force dyad thing.

The more I think about the JJ films the more moronic I realize they are lol. I do hope Dave and Jon end up getting the films and they either "it was all a dream" the last three films or set the new movies far away in time and/or distance.

[eschatological]

TLJ is bad because it wastes time that goes no where important to the story of the movie let alone the sequels.

Poe's mutiny? Pointless, Poe doesn't grow he is still as cocky as ever.
Casino World? All it does it gets a Finn vs Plasma fight that feels lack luster. This could have been so much better too (the cut version of the fight imo was superior, but didn't feel earned by the movie.)

But, the rest. Introducing the Force Dyad connection, fallen Luke, etc ... these are great concept that Rian should have focused on.

Poe's mutiny did have a story element "point" to it. He was the one calling the retreat to live another day at the end fight, essentially taking Holdo's place and being a leader, while Finn became the cocky one who thought heroics could save the day. Everyone, narratively, "levels up" in terms of their mindset and character, with Poe going from cocksure pilot to leader who has to make hard decisions, and Finn going from coward and deserter to cocksure fighter willing to give his life.

Casino world served the narrative focus to A) completely undermine Poe's insistence on heroics, as the mission unwittingly sabotages Holdo's entire plan, B) show the ugliness of war and war profiteering off both sides of said war (something expanded on in Rogue One when the Rebellion agents are shanking informants in back allies), and C) democratizing the Force by showing young stablehands capable of accessing the Force without any significance towards bloodlines or ancient philosophies.

[Triceron]

Why do people expect that? Like, the goal of the Disney sequels was, I thought, to refresh the series and revitalize it for a new universe. TFA was supposed to be a deliberate mirror of ANH with new characters meeting with old ones to bridge the series, most of the old ones were supposed to die in the course of the trilogy, and there were supposed to be new things explored. It's why they outright de-canonized most of the EU and said "this might not be permanent, we might add some of this stuff back in in a more cohesive manner."

My impression was always that the new SW, even the mainline films, were supposed to move past the Skywalker saga, the black and white fairy tale, the space opera aspects of the original, and become something bigger than that.

Moving away from the Skywalker saga does not also mean it needs to subvert every expectation for what fans want to see from the saga itself.

Having his return hinted at the end of The Force Awakens builds expectations that he will have a part in Rey's training in the future. Having Luke absolutely not train or mentor Rey and completely forgoe any sense of hope is counter intuitive to what fans were expecting. Not to say that it wasn't an interesting hook to take, but his appearance in The Last Jedi was mostly irrelevant to Rey's growth.

If they want to hammer down his lack of faith in the Order and his failure in Ben Solo, then sure those are great to explore. But it doesn't have to be at the sake of completely ignoring Rey as well. At some point fans were expecting to see him mentor her; and that just never happened, at all. He didn't even have to train her in the Jedi ways. With the story they went with, he could have been the one to support her in taking her own path, rather than simply discouraging her at every possible moment. He did nothing for her at all, even by the end of the movie. So fans aren't really upset that the series took a different direction, more that Chekov's gun was shown and never fired. From an audience point of view, Luke's return was set up to fail.

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Casino world served the narrative focus to A) completely undermine Poe's insistence on heroics, as the mission unwittingly sabotages Holdo's entire plan, B) show the ugliness of war and war profiteering off both sides of said war (something expanded on in Rogue One when the Rebellion agents are shanking informants in back allies), and C) democratizing the Force by showing young stablehands capable of accessing the Force without any significance towards bloodlines or ancient philosophies.

And that doesn't work when you realize that Poe's insubbordination would have been the direct responsibility of the commanding officer with-holding information and poorly communicating the plan to her subordinates, to the point where they feel the need to act against her orders.

She knows he is hot-headed, so the way to deal with it is not giving him more reasons to be hot-headed. It's to cool it down with something that instills confidence in them and simmers down their need-to-take-action. Instead, she stoked his fires and gave him all the fuel he needed to burst. Basic leadership skills that were completely ignored here, for a character that is in an absolute leadership position. It's the type of incompetence I'd expect from the Empire or First Order, not the Resistance.

Cuz let's face it, there was no reason why she shouldn't have told Poe. Even with the situation of expecting a mole, she could have given him a blatant, believable lie. Even if the plan Holdo explains to him was a complete ruse, it would have been more than enough to quell his fears. And in the end, she DOES tell Poe anyways, and he COMPLETELY AGREES with the plan. So she wasn't really opposed to telling him, she just chose to dismiss him for being hot-headed. That makes it her responsibility for the actions that followed. It's a direct line of failed leadership leading to shit hitting the fan.

The story itself was poorly written.

If she were in true command and he were being insubordinate, she should have had people closely watching him, or simply had him detained. She could have had a tighter run of her own ship, instead of people directly under her command (her own bridge crew) helping Poe, since it seems even THEY were seemingly uninformed of the plan. There's so many things wrong with the story handling this subplot that really it shouldn't have happened at all. The whole thing seemed to be some sad excuse to write a story where the 'Hero' ends up being laid low by their overconfidence and their mistakes, but really none of these mistakes were really without reason, and they all stemmed from leadership failing to instill confidence in the entire crew.

Canto Bight was a side adventure that was absolutely pointless, and honestly should never have happened. There's many other ways to have the main characters realize that there are shades of gray in warfare.

[PACOX]

as far as I can tell from this article, Randolph is only saying the rumor that Filoni and Favreau are moving over to the movie side. The article seems to take the jump that there was some sort of feud and this must mean Kennedy's role is diminished.

Whatever happened to the Rian Johnson trilogy? Did they officially cancel that? I know the D&D trilogy was canceled cause they're hacks (oh, sorry, they're such geniuses that they felt the need to "walk away") but I don't recall hearing anything about Johnson's trilogy. I actually liked TLJ and I'd love to see what he could do outside of the Skywalker saga with perhaps some fresh characters without the burden or expectation of fans' headcanon.

I think people forgot that Kennedy is likely the person who is placing these in their roles being the president of LA and very experienced with the company and executive production in general.

Rian Johnson is still on as a few months ago. Don't know if anything has changed since. SW has a long back log.

[Lex Icon]

most of the movies aren't that great outside of the world building. tv shows and video games are superior imo.

[Biomega]

most of the movies aren't that great outside of the world building. tv shows and video games are superior imo.

That's actually very true. Even the SWTOR: KotFE cinematic alone is better than most of the movies. I guess part of it is a 2-hour format just being so vastly inferior for world building and character development.

[Darththeo]

Poe's mutiny did have a story element "point" to it. He was the one calling the retreat to live another day at the end fight, essentially taking Holdo's place and being a leader, while Finn became the cocky one who thought heroics could save the day. Everyone, narratively, "levels up" in terms of their mindset and character, with Poe going from cocksure pilot to leader who has to make hard decisions, and Finn going from coward and deserter to cocksure fighter willing to give his life.

Casino world served the narrative focus to A) completely undermine Poe's insistence on heroics, as the mission unwittingly sabotages Holdo's entire plan, B) show the ugliness of war and war profiteering off both sides of said war (something expanded on in Rogue One when the Rebellion agents are shanking informants in back allies), and C) democratizing the Force by showing young stablehands capable of accessing the Force without any significance towards bloodlines or ancient philosophies.

And the mutiny could have been totally removed ... the story progresses the same.
Finn already LEARNED that lesson in the prior movie ... therefore that growth was repeated. Thus is not needed.

A I could grant you but is unneeded in the overall story as a simple traitor to the Resistance fills that roll. And Poe is still cocksure throughout TLJ and RoS.
B is unneeded in the story as it is never addressed outside that subplot,
C is already known.

The casino plot and Poe's mutiny are 100% unneeded fluff in the story that don't even really build out the world to be more believable, in fact, it took most people out of the movie because they lack any real narrative need.

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I think people forgot that Kennedy is likely the person who is placing these in their roles being the president of LA and very experienced with the company and executive production in general.

Rian Johnson is still on as a few months ago. Don't know if anything has changed since. SW has a long back log.

Johnson's Trilogy is indefinitely delayed. So essentially, in development hell.

[Lex Icon]

That's actually very true. Even the SWTOR: KotFE cinematic alone is better than most of the movies. I guess part of it is a 2-hour format just being so vastly inferior for world building and character development.

SWTOR is kinda my favorite as far as star wars goes atm. i played it for so many years and it really felt like being a part of that universe.
+ huttball is the greatest pvp battleground ever created!