1. #3281
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zaktar View Post
    He was recognized by Yoda in Return of the Jedi. His thesis defense was to confront his father, which he did. It's as official as it was possible to be under the circumstances.
    That was under the hypothetical, but yes: Luke is officially recognized by Yoda in the actual canon despite him not really qualifying in any respect to doctrine. Luke is the last person alive to even come close to a real Jedi master by the time of ROTJ, hence why he gets away with being called one.
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  2. #3282
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Obi-Wan and Yoda were actual members of the Republic's Jedi order, whether or not the majority Order died off is irrelevant in their regard. They were in exile, but active practitioners of the Jedi doctrine of their time.
    Oh so they can be in exile but still a Jedi but Leia can't stop her training and still be a Jedi? Weird double standard right? Also how can you say that Leia wouldn't be a Jedi while also saying that Luke is making up everything as he goes. You can't use old standards for being a Jedi while also saying those old standards don't exist anymore. Again a double standard to exclude a specific person.

    She couldn't even be a remnant of a dead order by your entire argument. Because the Jedi Order died with order 66. And Leia was only ever trained by Luke who you just said is a non-jedi and simply "stole" the name. So Leia wouldn't be the remnants of a dead order. She would just be a force user by your own arguments. All of this just because you want to go by your own head canon rather then accept that the canon indicates Leia as a Jedi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    That was under the hypothetical, but yes: Luke is officially recognized by Yoda in the actual canon despite him not really qualifying in any respect to doctrine. Luke is the last person alive to even come close to a real Jedi master by the time of ROTJ, hence why he gets away with being called one.
    Actually he considers himself to still be a knight because he hasn't fulfilled the requirements to be a Jedi Master. Those requirements are to have a padawan that attains the rank of Knight. It is why Anakin was not given the rank of master but a seat on the council. This doubt of his rank is even explored in the Disney era canon. But if a Jedi master can over ride it then Luke can easily say a person is a Jedi even if they retire from training. Right?

    Or are we going to continue the double standards?
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  3. #3283
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Oh so they can be in exile but still a Jedi but Leia can't stop her training and still be a Jedi? Weird double standard right? Also how can you say that Leia wouldn't be a Jedi while also saying that Luke is making up everything as he goes. You can't use old standards for being a Jedi while also saying those old standards don't exist anymore. Again a double standard to exclude a specific person.

    She couldn't even be a remnant of a dead order by your entire argument. Because the Jedi Order died with order 66. And Leia was only ever trained by Luke who you just said is a non-jedi and simply "stole" the name. So Leia wouldn't be the remnants of a dead order. She would just be a force user by your own arguments. All of this just because you want to go by your own head canon rather then accept that the canon indicates Leia as a Jedi.

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    Actually he considers himself to still be a knight because he hasn't fulfilled the requirements to be a Jedi Master. Those requirements are to have a padawan that attains the rank of Knight. It is why Anakin was not given the rank of master but a seat on the council. This doubt of his rank is even explored in the Disney era canon. But if a Jedi master can over ride it then Luke can easily say a person is a Jedi even if they retire from training. Right?

    Or are we going to continue the double standards?
    That is not the requirement to be a jedi master.

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_Master

    A Jedi Master was a Jedi Knight who had been offered a higher ranking within Jedi Order as a result of a Jedi Grand Master seeing the Knight fit for the position.
    Last edited by Orange Joe; 2021-06-09 at 01:26 AM.
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  4. #3284
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    That is not the requirement to be a jedi master. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_Master
    "Years after the Great Jedi Purge and the Galactic Civil War, Luke Skywalker attempted to train his own generation of Jedi and was considered a Jedi Master, though it was merely a role he played not having formally earned such a title until posthumously completing said role as Padawan Rey's mentor as a Force spirit."

    That part of the wookieepedia seems to disagree. Having a padawan to some degree plays a role beyond that of the current council consenting. Also this article, https://screenrant.com/star-wars-jed...nks-explained/, is based on a canon book and it states "a Jedi Master is a Knight who has taken and trained a Padawan to Knighthood. " Though that book and article both seem to have errors with even some parts of the book contradict other parts of the book.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  5. #3285
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    "Years after the Great Jedi Purge and the Galactic Civil War, Luke Skywalker attempted to train his own generation of Jedi and was considered a Jedi Master, though it was merely a role he played not having formally earned such a title until posthumously completing said role as Padawan Rey's mentor as a Force spirit."

    That part of the wookieepedia seems to disagree. Having a padawan to some degree plays a role beyond that of the current council consenting. Also this article, https://screenrant.com/star-wars-jed...nks-explained/, is based on a canon book and it states "a Jedi Master is a Knight who has taken and trained a Padawan to Knighthood. " Though that book and article both seem to have errors with even some parts of the book contradict other parts of the book.
    The very next section says Rey is a Master even though she’s never had any students and it’s only possible she will take some on.

  6. #3286
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    "Years after the Great Jedi Purge and the Galactic Civil War, Luke Skywalker attempted to train his own generation of Jedi and was considered a Jedi Master, though it was merely a role he played not having formally earned such a title until posthumously completing said role as Padawan Rey's mentor as a Force spirit."

    That part of the wookieepedia seems to disagree. Having a padawan to some degree plays a role beyond that of the current council consenting. Also this article, https://screenrant.com/star-wars-jed...nks-explained/, is based on a canon book and it states "a Jedi Master is a Knight who has taken and trained a Padawan to Knighthood. " Though that book and article both seem to have errors with even some parts of the book contradict other parts of the book.
    Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master.
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  7. #3287
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The very next section says Rey is a Master even though she’s never had any students and it’s only possible she will take some on.
    " At some point after, while attempting to restore galactic peace, Rey became a Jedi Master" is on the wookieepedia and is stated to be from the same book I mentioned in my last response. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Book I will see if I can do a preview of it to look for better context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master.
    Ah right. Lets ignore the information that proves you wrong just because it proves you wrong. Are there always exceptions? Sure but the exceptions are not the rule and the Old Republic Jedi Order was always shown to be stubborn. That is one of the reasons given for why Qui-gon turned down a position on the council.

    "Qui-Gon knew the Council to be wrong about many things. He felt they'd allowed the Jedi Order to become a sort of chancellor's police, rather than concentrating on knowing the Force. Yes, they were wise to refuse to rule - but unwise to simply accept the status quo. Short-sighted, to lose touch with the living Force by spending so much of their time and energy on enforcing laws that could as easily be left to civilian authorities. Immoral, to refuse to act against evils such as slavery."
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  8. #3288
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Oh so they can be in exile but still a Jedi but Leia can't stop her training and still be a Jedi? Weird double standard right? Also how can you say that Leia wouldn't be a Jedi while also saying that Luke is making up everything as he goes. You can't use old standards for being a Jedi while also saying those old standards don't exist anymore. Again a double standard to exclude a specific person.

    She couldn't even be a remnant of a dead order by your entire argument. Because the Jedi Order died with order 66. And Leia was only ever trained by Luke who you just said is a non-jedi and simply "stole" the name. So Leia wouldn't be the remnants of a dead order. She would just be a force user by your own arguments. All of this just because you want to go by your own head canon rather then accept that the canon indicates Leia as a Jedi.

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    Actually he considers himself to still be a knight because he hasn't fulfilled the requirements to be a Jedi Master. Those requirements are to have a padawan that attains the rank of Knight. It is why Anakin was not given the rank of master but a seat on the council. This doubt of his rank is even explored in the Disney era canon. But if a Jedi master can over ride it then Luke can easily say a person is a Jedi even if they retire from training. Right?

    Or are we going to continue the double standards?
    Yoda & Ben: actual Jedi masters, who were NOT DEAD AT THE TIME, who go on to train the son of a Jedi knight, who technically would not qualify to be a Jedi in any respectable way under their own Order's doctrine.

    Ahsoka: A failed Padawan who left said order for her own reasons, knows the workings of Jedi Heirarchy and would be able to teach others on how it used to work. Would not be able to officiate rights to train new Jedi as official Jedi despite that knowledge.

    Luke: son of former Jedi knight, too old to train as an official Jedi knight; gets trained by actual Jedi masters in the ways to Jedi knighthood despite not being recognizable by official order doctrine. Grandmaster of Order allows singular exception to Luke, despite it breaking all protocols and doctrines of the order, to have the chance to become a Jedi if he confronts Vader. Luke then treats himself as a practitioner of a new path based on old Jedi doctrine with some critical edits. (you following along yet?) Not really a Jedi in anything but name, but uninitiated people who don't know the difference call him a Jedi Master anyways cause he's the closest thing to it after ROTJ.

    Leia: Sister of Luke, initiated in the new ways of teaching that Luke Skywalker offers as his version of Jedi doctrine, despite them not being able to be recognized by original order. Despite Luke urging her to continue his new philosophy, she leaves said order before he could recognize her as a Knight in his own version of the order; specifically because she saw visions that if she completed her training as a Jedi, her son Ben Solo would die. When Luke dies, she's the last person to know of his and the older order's teachings; is a remnant of those teachings because she cannot be officially recognized by the original order's practice. As in, she's the last person in the galaxy who can give pointers to anyone who wants to learn about Jedi; but no one, including herself, can ever be a real Jedi because the original Jedi order is dead at this point. They can carry on the name if they wish, but by the standards of Jedi doctrine, none of them can be officially recognized in the old order.

    Luke could call her a Jedi if he wanted to, but it doesn't really matter because after Yoda's death its fucking make believe at this point, something even Yoda tries to teach him in TLJ. You can cry to the damn heaven's as much as you want but it doesn't change the fact that Luke is barely a Jedi by any stretch of the imagination, and Leia can't be called anything greater than a force user. Ben and Yoda skirt their own order's laws just to get a single heir to their legacy, throwing the entire order's practice out the window in the process; then fully admit in the end that it doesn't matter if their successors are Jedi or not.

    Yoda and Ben are the last of the Jedi order, and the Jedi order died with them (I say this specifically because Jedi master Cere Junda and Cal Kestis from Fallen order are not confirmed to be alive post ROTJ). Luke carried on their legacy in name but can't realistically do that in an official capacity because he was not really a Jedi to begin with. Anyone who comes after Luke is part of a new order that is not really Jedi in anything but name either. Calling Leia a Jedi is just being kind at that point, because she never even completed Luke's training requirements ffs.

    Not like anyone over at Lucasfilm even thought about this. Even in ROTJ Luke shouldn't be recognized as a Jedi even though Yoda says he will be when he confronts Vader; Yoda even laughs at Luke's declaration that he's a Jedi now. The sequel canon is a shitshow for this exact reason. Despite Lucasfilm's insistence on calling her one, Leia is not a Jedi by their own metrics. There's no official way she could ever be recognized one, she could only bear the name in honor of their legacy had she chosen to, and she deliberately didn't.
    Last edited by Lothaeryn; 2021-06-09 at 03:12 AM.
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    .

  9. #3289
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The Jedi did not exist at that point.

    Unless she went through full Padawan progression and initiation, she was not a Jedi. And there's no indication that happened. Just that Luke trained her in the ways of the Force. Totally different things.
    Luke didn't do that either. He wasn't initiated, he wasn't a Padawan, he wasn't knighted. For obvious reasons.

    The entire structure of what it means to be a Jedi changed significantly with the Prequels. We knew very little about them until then, and didn't need to. We knew they used the Force, we knew the Jedi had Lightsabers, that they were guardians of peace and protectors of the weak. And that's pretty much it.

    What we know as Jedi robes today used to be standard Tatooine clothing. Unless uncle Owen was a Jedi in hiding. It made sense for Ben Kenobi to dress like that, because he lived in a desert and wanted to blend in.

    There were no Padawans. The term simply didn't exist. There was no Jedi Order, either. We had no idea about their organization amongst each other, if they even had any. They might just as well have been knights errant, taking up a gifted learner who was taught in their ways, their principles, use of the force and trusting it, and then had to overcome a sort of challange to be recognized as a Jedi knight. The temptation of the Dark Side and rejecting it is probably somewhere in there too.

    If we take this interpretation of what it means to be a Jedi, then Luke is a Jedi, and so is Rey. Leia aspired to be at one point, but didn't go through with it. I'm not sure if the word Padawan is ushered in the expanded sequel material, but from what one gathers from the movie, this is also the model Luke applied for his teachings. He was a singular master teaching students in the ways of the Force and the Jedi. No need to have an Order for that, or anything.

    If we take the model presented in the Prequels, Luke's not a Jedi either. Yoda was the last Jedi (or Cal Kestis, we don't exactly know what happened to him, but at least he was properly knighted.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Even in ROTJ Luke shouldn't be recognized as a Jedi even though Yoda says he will be when he confronts Vader; Yoda even laughs at Luke's declaration that he's a Jedi now.
    Fairly certain he's coughing there.

  10. #3290
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There is no order left to give a rank. Luke couldn't be a master because he had no Padawan that reach Knight. There was no council to give Luke, or anyone after him, official ranks. You are definitely looking for a loop hole here. Same way with you saying that Leia can be called a Jedi but it is factually incorrect. If you admit that she can be called one in your subjective "certain context" then it isn't factually incorrect.

    Everything points to Leia still being part of Luke's order even if she didn't complete training. She also was training Rey to be a Jedi which is hard to do if you are not a Jedi yourself. Otherwise Rey wouldn't be a Jedi but just a light side force user who learned some Jedi tricks. Right? But we know from all of the lore that Rey is considered a Jedi with out following any of the rules and trials that was created by the old Jedi Order.
    No, Leia does not need to be a Jedi to train someone as a Jedi. Leia just needs to understand Jedi training and there were non-Jedi who understood the training of a Jedi. You can treat Leia AS a Jedi for certain contexts, but Leia is NOT a Jedi. This isn't a loophole, this is literally what the canon says. If you disagree with this, you are asserting your head canon and personal definition supersede official ones.

    Calling Rey a Jedi Master is factually incorrect on all levels because at most she is applied to be Knight Level akin to Luke at the end of RotJ. She is not a Master, period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    " At some point after, while attempting to restore galactic peace, Rey became a Jedi Master" is on the wookieepedia and is stated to be from the same book I mentioned in my last response. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Book I will see if I can do a preview of it to look for better context.
    That reference book has at least 4 contradictions with the timeline. Reference books are always lower than any other source.
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  11. #3291
    Scarab Lord Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Fairly certain he's coughing there.
    He's trying to laugh but coughing because he's on his deathbed, its both.
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    .

  12. #3292
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That reference book has at least 4 contradictions with the timeline. Reference books are always lower than any other source.
    Doesn't matter unless it contradicts the statement being discussed. Reference books are still canon despite your, and others, view that they are lower then any other source. Unless you have another source that says she is not a master then what the reference book says stand. This is what a lot of star wars discussions come down to though. Refusal to accept canon and create a loop hole for why it can be dismissed.

    If it walk like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it is a duck. The very fact that you say you can treat Leia as a Jedi in certain contexts means that for all intents and purposes she is a Jedi. A retired member but that is all the Galaxy has left. One that offered a different perspective of the views on fear and how to deal with it.
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  13. #3293
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Doesn't matter unless it contradicts the statement being discussed. Reference books are still canon despite your, and others, view that they are lower then any other source. Unless you have another source that says she is not a master then what the reference book says stand. This is what a lot of star wars discussions come down to though. Refusal to accept canon and create a loop hole for why it can be dismissed.

    If it walk like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it is a duck. The very fact that you say you can treat Leia as a Jedi in certain contexts means that for all intents and purposes she is a Jedi. A retired member but that is all the Galaxy has left. One that offered a different perspective of the views on fear and how to deal with it.
    That's literally not an argument. You don't even have the source, you have the source filtered through Wookieepedia. They could have viewed the words in a book where they confused Jedi Master with a Master in terms of training. For example, "Master Jedi" is a canon honorific that is even used to refer to Padawans by the general public. Master is the honorific that Padawans use to refer to Knights as well as Masters.

    So, using your argument of "walk like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck" ... using the same logic, Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Master. And that is very much canonly not true. This is the problem, you are attempting to make an appeal to "common sense" with that argument. It can be very much mistaken.

    Unless it is officially stated in a source, sourcebooks should always been taken with a grain of salt as how canon they are. ESPECIALLY sourcebooks that have several inconsistencies already proven to exist.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-09 at 10:31 PM.
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  14. #3294
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That's literally not an argument. You don't even have the source, you have the source filtered through Wookieepedia.
    You had no problem with the source until you had no other argument. You first tried to say it isn't a good source of information because there are contradictions raised by it and the book if reference material. Now you argue that it is misinterpreted. Why not lead with that rather then out right dismissal? You keep grasping at anything to out right dismiss lore that you do not like.

    Anakin Skywalker was should have been given the rank of master. We know that. The council knows that. And Anakin knows that. They used the slight as a way to chastise Anakin. But we are not talking about specific ranks here. We are talking about a person being affiliated with the Jedi to be part of the Order. Do you have anything to say that Leia was banned from Luke's order? That she was kicked out? Leia and Ghost Luke are the ones that trained Rey to be a Jedi.

    Your last part is just creating a double standard. Unless it is stated in a source Darththeo agrees with, it should always be taken with a grain of salt as how canon they are is what you just stated. "The Star Wars Book" is considered to be a source of Canon despite the contradictions that exist. What are valid sources otherwise? Movies? Comics? Novels?
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  15. #3295
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    " At some point after, while attempting to restore galactic peace, Rey became a Jedi Master" is on the wookieepedia and is stated to be from the same book I mentioned in my last response. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Book I will see if I can do a preview of it to look for better context.

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    Ah right. Lets ignore the information that proves you wrong just because it proves you wrong. Are there always exceptions? Sure but the exceptions are not the rule and the Old Republic Jedi Order was always shown to be stubborn. That is one of the reasons given for why Qui-gon turned down a position on the council.
    What information am I ignoring that proves this statement wrong?

    "Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master."
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  16. #3296
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    What information am I ignoring that proves this statement wrong? "Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master."
    Using the exception as baseline rather then the normal.
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  17. #3297
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Using the exception as baseline rather then the normal.
    You're reading something that isn't there. I would agree with you that training padawans is probably the most common way knights advanced to masters.


    I'm just saying it wasn't hard set into stone that that was the ONLY way.
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  18. #3298
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    I'm just saying it wasn't hard set into stone that that was the ONLY way.
    But that isn't what you originally said. You stated training a padawan was not a requirement to become a master. Going around the requirements doesn't remove the requirement. It just means that person A was given an exception for whatever reason. Which reflect back to the greater discussion on can X be Y if they don't meet Z requirements.
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  19. #3299
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You had no problem with the source until you had no other argument.
    Because I use the source correctly, and not as a blunt tool of objective truth. I tend to only use the parts of it that are supported in the actual material anyway rather than sourcebooks. There is no hypocrisy because you can't see the difference. It isn't a double standard either. And YES, the movies, television shows ...the ACTUAL WORK is the source. Seriously, you do not understand what a double standard means.

    Sourcebooks are meant to be collections of information; they may or may not be considered valid. When a sourcebooks has errors, a person is 100% valid in questioning its validity elsewhere. This isn't a double standard.

    Anakin Skywalker was should have been given the rank of master. We know that. The council knows that. And Anakin knows that. They used the slight as a way to chastise Anakin. But we are not talking about specific ranks here. We are talking about a person being affiliated with the Jedi to be part of the Order. Do you have anything to say that Leia was banned from Luke's order? That she was kicked out? Leia and Ghost Luke are the ones that trained Rey to be a Jedi.
    No, Anakin should not have been given the rank of Master. He did not earn the rank of Master. He failed his one and only Padawan. He failed to learn the lessons his own Master taught him by repeating the same mistakes over and over while Knighted. Anakin was not a Master, nor should he have been granted the title. It is arguable that Anakin should never even been Knighted.

    Leia LEFT the order. It is canonly stated that she left. She quit. It doesn't matter if she was "banned" or "kicked out" ... that isn't the only way to stop being a Jedi. Dooku left the Order, alongside 19 other Jedi before him. They ceased being Jedi. Just because Leia taught Rey does not make Leia a Jedi. That applies that the only way to learn to become a Jedi is by a Jedi. We can treat Leia as a Jedi in certain contexts, but ONLY those contexts. Leia was not a Jedi. This isn't a debatable point.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-09 at 11:47 PM.
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  20. #3300
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But that isn't what you originally said. You stated training a padawan was not a requirement to become a master. Going around the requirements doesn't remove the requirement. It just means that person A was given an exception for whatever reason. Which reflect back to the greater discussion on can X be Y if they don't meet Z requirements.
    It isn't a requirement. It's just the most common way it's done.


    Where does it say it is a requirement?
    I have a fan. Seems he was permabanned.
    Yo, don't mind my "street talk"

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