1. #3301
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Doesn't matter unless it contradicts the statement being discussed. Reference books are still canon despite your, and others, view that they are lower then any other source. Unless you have another source that says she is not a master then what the reference book says stand. This is what a lot of star wars discussions come down to though. Refusal to accept canon and create a loop hole for why it can be dismissed.

    If it walk like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck then it is a duck. The very fact that you say you can treat Leia as a Jedi in certain contexts means that for all intents and purposes she is a Jedi. A retired member but that is all the Galaxy has left. One that offered a different perspective of the views on fear and how to deal with it.
    That's literally not an argument. You don't even have the source, you have the source filtered through Wookieepedia. They could have viewed the words in a book where they confused Jedi Master with a Master in terms of training. For example, "Master Jedi" is a canon honorific that is even used to refer to Padawans by the general public. Master is the honorific that Padawans use to refer to Knights as well as Masters.

    So, using your argument of "walk like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck" ... using the same logic, Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi Master. And that is very much canonly not true. This is the problem, you are attempting to make an appeal to "common sense" with that argument. It can be very much mistaken.

    Unless it is officially stated in a source, sourcebooks should always been taken with a grain of salt as how canon they are. ESPECIALLY sourcebooks that have several inconsistencies already proven to exist.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-09 at 10:31 PM.
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  2. #3302
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    That's literally not an argument. You don't even have the source, you have the source filtered through Wookieepedia.
    You had no problem with the source until you had no other argument. You first tried to say it isn't a good source of information because there are contradictions raised by it and the book if reference material. Now you argue that it is misinterpreted. Why not lead with that rather then out right dismissal? You keep grasping at anything to out right dismiss lore that you do not like.

    Anakin Skywalker was should have been given the rank of master. We know that. The council knows that. And Anakin knows that. They used the slight as a way to chastise Anakin. But we are not talking about specific ranks here. We are talking about a person being affiliated with the Jedi to be part of the Order. Do you have anything to say that Leia was banned from Luke's order? That she was kicked out? Leia and Ghost Luke are the ones that trained Rey to be a Jedi.

    Your last part is just creating a double standard. Unless it is stated in a source Darththeo agrees with, it should always be taken with a grain of salt as how canon they are is what you just stated. "The Star Wars Book" is considered to be a source of Canon despite the contradictions that exist. What are valid sources otherwise? Movies? Comics? Novels?
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  3. #3303
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    " At some point after, while attempting to restore galactic peace, Rey became a Jedi Master" is on the wookieepedia and is stated to be from the same book I mentioned in my last response. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Star_Wars_Book I will see if I can do a preview of it to look for better context.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ah right. Lets ignore the information that proves you wrong just because it proves you wrong. Are there always exceptions? Sure but the exceptions are not the rule and the Old Republic Jedi Order was always shown to be stubborn. That is one of the reasons given for why Qui-gon turned down a position on the council.
    What information am I ignoring that proves this statement wrong?

    "Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master."
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  4. #3304
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    What information am I ignoring that proves this statement wrong? "Training padawans was a way to earn master, but not the only way to be a master."
    Using the exception as baseline rather then the normal.
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  5. #3305
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Using the exception as baseline rather then the normal.
    You're reading something that isn't there. I would agree with you that training padawans is probably the most common way knights advanced to masters.


    I'm just saying it wasn't hard set into stone that that was the ONLY way.
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  6. #3306
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    I'm just saying it wasn't hard set into stone that that was the ONLY way.
    But that isn't what you originally said. You stated training a padawan was not a requirement to become a master. Going around the requirements doesn't remove the requirement. It just means that person A was given an exception for whatever reason. Which reflect back to the greater discussion on can X be Y if they don't meet Z requirements.
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  7. #3307
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You had no problem with the source until you had no other argument.
    Because I use the source correctly, and not as a blunt tool of objective truth. I tend to only use the parts of it that are supported in the actual material anyway rather than sourcebooks. There is no hypocrisy because you can't see the difference. It isn't a double standard either. And YES, the movies, television shows ...the ACTUAL WORK is the source. Seriously, you do not understand what a double standard means.

    Sourcebooks are meant to be collections of information; they may or may not be considered valid. When a sourcebooks has errors, a person is 100% valid in questioning its validity elsewhere. This isn't a double standard.

    Anakin Skywalker was should have been given the rank of master. We know that. The council knows that. And Anakin knows that. They used the slight as a way to chastise Anakin. But we are not talking about specific ranks here. We are talking about a person being affiliated with the Jedi to be part of the Order. Do you have anything to say that Leia was banned from Luke's order? That she was kicked out? Leia and Ghost Luke are the ones that trained Rey to be a Jedi.
    No, Anakin should not have been given the rank of Master. He did not earn the rank of Master. He failed his one and only Padawan. He failed to learn the lessons his own Master taught him by repeating the same mistakes over and over while Knighted. Anakin was not a Master, nor should he have been granted the title. It is arguable that Anakin should never even been Knighted.

    Leia LEFT the order. It is canonly stated that she left. She quit. It doesn't matter if she was "banned" or "kicked out" ... that isn't the only way to stop being a Jedi. Dooku left the Order, alongside 19 other Jedi before him. They ceased being Jedi. Just because Leia taught Rey does not make Leia a Jedi. That applies that the only way to learn to become a Jedi is by a Jedi. We can treat Leia as a Jedi in certain contexts, but ONLY those contexts. Leia was not a Jedi. This isn't a debatable point.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-09 at 11:47 PM.
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  8. #3308
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But that isn't what you originally said. You stated training a padawan was not a requirement to become a master. Going around the requirements doesn't remove the requirement. It just means that person A was given an exception for whatever reason. Which reflect back to the greater discussion on can X be Y if they don't meet Z requirements.
    It isn't a requirement. It's just the most common way it's done.


    Where does it say it is a requirement?
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  9. #3309
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Because I use the source correctly, and not as a blunt tool of objective truth. I tend to only use the parts of it that are supported in the actual material anyway rather than sourcebooks.
    All Canon is objective truth. It is the canon that the creators of the product decided. You tend to only use the parts of it that are supported by your own beliefs is what you are trying to say. There is no difference between "actual material" and "Sourcebooks". "The Star Wars Book" is as much actual material as anything else created and endorsed by LucasFilm.

    Anakin didn't fail his one and only padawan. She was kicked out by the Council and was offered to come back to the order with a promotion to Knight. That meets the requirements correct? Just because Ahsoka didn't take the council up on the offer doesn't change that she was eligible. There is no canon source that says Leia left the order. Only that she didn't complete her training. It does matter if she was banned, kicked out, or something else of a similar nature because that defines her future relationship. Leaving on good terms to "retire" is entirely different then leaving on bad terms to never be affiliated with the order.

    If Leia is a Jedi in certain contexts then she is a Jedi period. All that tells me is you can't refute the proof so have to hand wave it away because it doesn't agree with your head canon. Is not the only way to become a Jedi by being taught by a Jedi? Jedi Text, Ghost Jedi, Exiled Jedi, Retired Jedi, are all ways to learn how to be a Jedi. And at some point you have to be learning from Jedi stuff to learn Jedi stuff. Right?
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  10. #3310
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The problem with that argument is it was said by Kylo Ren. It doesn't have to be truth just because it was uttered by a character. You also ignore that Luke later said to Kylo that he won't be killing the last jedi. Which refers to Leia, Rey, both of those two, or some one else all together.
    Bolded text is purely speculation on your part. There isn't any canonical source that actually points to Leia being or considering herself a Jedi, even with the novel quotes you pulled.

    Kylo's discussion with Luke needs more context too. I haven't been able to find a source of this particular discussion yet to know exactly what Luke was referring to. I mean, by all means, could he even be talking about Kylo killing him? Or maybe he's talking about the 'Jedi ideal' rather than any specific person. Again, I'd need to see the specific quote on this to further discuss, and I'm not interested in rewatching the Last Jedi to do so.

    If there are to be Jedi after Luke then it will have to start with Leia and Rey as those are the only two known to be teaching and following the Jedi ways to some degree.
    Not true at all. Star Wars is such a vast universe that it'd be possible for other Force users to come across information on the Jedi and the old ways. This is a body of fiction, it doesn't have to start and end with Leia and Rey.

    I mean look at Mandalorian. It was able to work in a loophole where Anakin didn't kill *every* Jedi outside of Yoda and Obi-wan. Grogu is a potential Jedi, or at least a Force user who was trained in formal Jedi ways at some point in time. Even if he goes the path of Leia/Asohka and doesn't adopt a formal Jedi designation in the future, he still has the potential to train a new generation of Jedi in the far future. A simple explanation for why he's never mentioned or considered a full fledged Jedi is because of his slow age, he could still be a Padawan in training at the time of the New Trilogy.

    It's kind of up to the creative heads at Disney/Lucas to figure out what connections they want to have between Grogu, Rey and the future 'Jedi' Order.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 12:35 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
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  11. #3311
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    Where does it say it is a requirement?
    You just agreed with me that is is a requirement and the most common way. Just not the only way. Exceptions are not the baseline because they are exceptions. The canon has stated it is the a requirement. I can't offer a transcription of that because I do not own the book that it comes from. Google book search is not enabled for that title and my local library does not have a copy so I can't even borrow a physical or e-book copy. And I don't fee like buying it just for a discussion here.

    I think I may see the issues here though. In Legends what you say was true. It usually required a padawan but did not always require it. In the Disney era that has been changed to require training of a padawan. Exceptions always exist though so a new situation could be created or an old one honored that does not meet those requirements.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Bolded text is purely speculation on your part. There isn't any canonical source that actually points to Leia being or considering herself a Jedi, even with the novel quotes you pulled.
    It is not pure speculation. Who else would Luke have been referring to? If he knew of other Jedi why wouldn't he have sent Rey to them to be trained? We know that Luke was regularly communicating as a ghost.

    If Leia is not a Jedi even though she is both teaching and using Jedi techniques then someone finding Jedi texts also wouldn't be a Jedi. You can't have it both ways and change things simply to fit the argument you are making. Anakin never killed every Jedi anyways. There have always been Jedi that escaped by Order 66 and Darth Vader. If Leia can't be called a Jedi then neither can Grogu but you are already making exceptions to say he isn't a full Jedi. That is still being a Jedi. Wouldn't Leia be a Jedi but just not a full one? Since she would be in the same state as Grogu?
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-10 at 12:52 AM.
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  12. #3312
    IDK what the big problem is. Ranks decided by an organization are subject to change, in nomenclature as well as in procedure.

    Maybe "Jedi Master" once required going through a specific process, and included vetting by a council; now it doesn't, because the organization as a whole has changed. Since Luke is basically the only one left, he gets to say how it works.

    That's literally how it worked in comparable institutions, like say religious orders. You can't just look at, say, the Catholic Church and go "oh but he's not a cardinal because in the middle ages, cardinals had to be noblemen and he's not a noble, so..." Things change, rules change, ranks change.

  13. #3313
    Scarab Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    All Canon is objective truth. It is the canon that the creators of the product decided. You tend to only use the parts of it that are supported by your own beliefs is what you are trying to say. There is no difference between "actual material" and "Sourcebooks". "The Star Wars Book" is as much actual material as anything else created and endorsed by LucasFilm.
    Except the canon value of sourcebooks is "Unknown." You are declaring them canon. And not everything produced and endorsed by Lucasfilm is canon. The Lego Star Wars materials that Disney Produced (Freemaker Adventures and the new Holiday Special) are both non-canon. And those were both endorsed and created by Lucasfilm.

    Anakin didn't fail his one and only padawan. She was kicked out by the Council and was offered to come back to the order with a promotion to Knight. That meets the requirements correct? Just because Ahsoka didn't take the council up on the offer doesn't change that she was eligible. There is no canon source that says Leia left the order. Only that she didn't complete her training. It does matter if she was banned, kicked out, or something else of a similar nature because that defines her future relationship. Leaving on good terms to "retire" is entirely different then leaving on bad terms to never be affiliated with the order.
    Nothing you said directly proves Anakin didn't fail Ahsoka. Just because Ahsoka passed her great trial has no bearing on whether or not Anakin failed her. Obi-wan failed Anakin as a teacher. Anakin had become a knight, but Obi-wan still failed Anakin. The success of the student does not mean the teacher didn't fail the student, it doesn't correlate that way. You can have a successful student with a failure of a teacher.

    This is what Anakin feels. That he and the Jedi Order as a whole failed Ahsoka. I am going to go with Anakin rather than a person on the internet desperately clinging to a bad argument.

    If Leia is a Jedi in certain contexts then she is a Jedi period. All that tells me is you can't refute the proof so have to hand wave it away because it doesn't agree with your head canon. Is not the only way to become a Jedi by being taught by a Jedi? Jedi Text, Ghost Jedi, Exiled Jedi, Retired Jedi, are all ways to learn how to be a Jedi. And at some point you have to be learning from Jedi stuff to learn Jedi stuff. Right?
    No, that isn't remotely a logical statement. Context matters, period. Leia did not consider herself a Jedi. The greater galaxy didn't consider Leia a Jedi. The context she can be considered a Jedi is in merely the basis of discussion that she can be considered by us to be a Jedi in the context of certain conversations. But our discussion do not canon make.

    What is funny is you accuse me of "hand waving" when that is 100% what your argument is.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-10 at 01:33 AM.
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  14. #3314
    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Except the canon value of sourcebooks is "Unknown." You are declaring them canon. And not everything produced and endorsed by Lucasfilm is canon. The Lego Star Wars materials that Disney Produced (Freemaker Adventures and the new Holiday Special) are both non-canon. And those were both endorsed and created by Lucasfilm.
    I didn't declare them canon. Disney did. If the canon value of the book is not known then nothing can be considered canon because their value is never stated. Even the movies change most notably with who shot first. Which is canon? The first way? The second way? The way X person says? The books? This is your problem. You are basing value on how closely it aligns with your views.

    Nothing you said directly proves Anakin didn't fail Ahsoka. Just because Ahsoka passed her great trial has no bearing on whether or not Anakin failed her. Obi-wan failed Anakin as a teacher. Anakin had become a knight, but Obi-wan still failed Anakin.
    Are you aware that Obi-wan became a Jedi Master and that Anakin was his only Padawan? Obi-wan was allowed to the rank of master once Anakin became a Knight. That puts a wrench in your entire premise. You are going with your head canon which isn't surprising given how you've stated you value books that don't' agree with you less then ones that do.

    Leia did not consider herself a Jedi. The greater galaxy didn't consider Leia a Jedi. The context she can be considered a Jedi is in merely the basis of discussion that she can be considered by us to be a Jedi in the context of certain conversations. But our discussion do not canon make.
    Where is the canon that says that? I provide one where she clearly thought of herself as an informal master. We have a canon source stating that Leia thought Rey need training that was not from a formal master. Leia thought that non-formal master was herself. You don't know how the galaxy considered her since there is very little Disney Era material exploring that.

    Again if she can be considered to be a Jedi based on canon then she is for all intents and purposes a Jedi. Even if it only applies in some contexts that still means she is a Jedi. You are only saying that it applies sometimes because you can't refute canon but also won't accept your head canon as being wrong. Pick one not both. Like I said the duck test applies here.
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  15. #3315
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You just agreed with me that is is a requirement and the most common way. Just not the only way. Exceptions are not the baseline because they are exceptions. The canon has stated it is the a requirement. I can't offer a transcription of that because I do not own the book that it comes from. Google book search is not enabled for that title and my local library does not have a copy so I can't even borrow a physical or e-book copy. And I don't fee like buying it just for a discussion here.

    I think I may see the issues here though. In Legends what you say was true. It usually required a padawan but did not always require it. In the Disney era that has been changed to require training of a padawan. Exceptions always exist though so a new situation could be created or an old one honored that does not meet those requirements.
    I did? Where did I say it was a requirement?

    And no. I checked both.

    Disney Cannon
    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_Master
    A Jedi Master was a Jedi Knight who had been offered a higher ranking within Jedi Order as a result of a Jedi Grand Master seeing the Knight fit for the position.

    Legends
    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jedi_Master/Legends
    The rank of Master was a title bestowed upon very few Knights in every generation. As such, Masters made up the smallest percent of the Order's membership. The most common path to this rank was to train and elevate several Padawans to the rank of Knight, typically one right after the other, and have them all successfully pass their Jedi Trials.

    Anyways. I'm not gonna debate this further. I'll take what wookieepedia says over you.
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  16. #3316
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    I did? Where did I say it was a requirement?
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    You're reading something that isn't there. I would agree with you that training padawans is probably the most common way knights advanced to masters.
    What is the common way if not the standard requirement? Since you'll believe Wookieepedia over a person using both it and other sources of Canon information you will agree with me? Right? https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jed...ind_the_scenes
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  17. #3317
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is not pure speculation. Who else would Luke have been referring to? If he knew of other Jedi why wouldn't he have sent Rey to them to be trained? We know that Luke was regularly communicating as a ghost.
    I'd need to see the exact quotes to be able to discuss. I don't know exactly which part of what movie you're talking about, so I can't really answer.

    If Leia is not a Jedi even though she is both teaching and using Jedi techniques then someone finding Jedi texts also wouldn't be a Jedi.
    Correct. You understand there is a paradox.

    What the movies have effectively done is ignored the paradox completely, because the people who headed the new trilogy aren't concerned about the details as much as the fans (and Favreau and Filoni) do.

    The problem was caused by The Last Jedi and having Luke die without having trained Rey at all. Instead of a Yoda-Luke passing of the torch, we have an incomplete cycle where Rey and Leia are not formally a Jedi, they just decide to call themselves that regardless of the Order. And of course, there's really no way they're going to throw in some random Force sensitive Jedi into the last movie just to train Rey - The closest person they had in the movies was Leia. Rian Johnson intended to do away with the Jedi Order, so of course he wouldn't seed any other Jedi into his movie, while RoS is painted into a corner by the previous two movies establishing that there are no Jedi characters left in the story (as understood by the Last Jedi).


    The problems we're talking about are problems with the lore of the movies themselves. The movies do nothing to address the actual Jedi ways being carried into the future. It's left completely ambiguous, and the only hint is Rey choosing to adopt the Skywalker name, and calling herself a Jedi because that's what fans would expect of a Star Wars movie even though it goes against the lore set up by the Prequels that laid out how the Jedi Order actually worked.

    Having those texts destroyed in The Last Jedi should have symbolically destroyed the Jedi Order. RoS made a veiled attempt to salvage the Jedi name because they realized the last movie killed the Golden Goose and they need to fix those mistakes, even if it means screwing up the canon.

    You can't have it both ways and change things simply to fit the argument you are making. Anakin never killed every Jedi anyways. There have always been Jedi that escaped by Order 66 and Darth Vader. If Leia can't be called a Jedi then neither can Grogu but you are already making exceptions to say he isn't a full Jedi. That is still being a Jedi. Wouldn't Leia be a Jedi but just not a full one? Since she would be in the same state as Grogu?
    Luke can be a Jedi because he finished his training, despite never having been a formal Padawan. He was recognized by a formal Jedi in the movies; Yoda, and that is enough to go on. From there, Luke finding sacred texts would be savvy, since he is dedicated to reviving the Order.

    Leia chose not to complete her training, and did not seek that path. She was trained by Luke, but not formally recognized as a Jedi, even in the movies.

    Grogu is different because he's formally trained by Jedi of the Order, and has the potential to continue his training through Luke. We simply don't know what lies ahead for him, whether he even chooses to continue the Jedi path. He hasn't made that decision yet, whereas we know the paths that Luke and Leia took.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 02:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #3318
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'd need to see the exact quotes to be able to discuss. I don't know exactly which part of what movie you're talking about, so I can't really answer.
    How do you need the exact quote when it was the line following the one you gave. It is kind of weird to give quotes about Kylo saying he will kill the last jedi and not understand the context of it.

    Kylo Ren : I'm sure you are! The Resistance is dead, the war is over, and when I kill you, I will have killed the last Jedi!
    Luke Skywalker : Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The problem was caused by The Last Jedi and having Luke die without having trained Rey at all. Instead of a Yoda-Luke passing of the torch, we have an incomplete cycle where neither the Master or the Apprentice are formally Jedi, they just decide to call themselves that regardless of the Order. And of course, there's really no way they're going to throw in some random Force sensitive Jedi into the last movie just to train Rey - oh wait that's EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID WITH LEIA
    So you argue about Leia being a Jedi then say she is a random jedi they threw into the last movie just to train Rey. This is getting comical. First you don't understand the context of the quote you yourself used. Then you do say Leia is a Jedi while still arguing against it. The movies also do address the Jedi legacy being carried into the future. We have Jedi texts. We have Luke. We have ghost luke catching a lightsaber. We have Leia being shown training Rey. We have hundreds of Jedi ghosts crowding around Rey. It was setting up the theme that the Jedi at the end were to concerned with the rules and regulations. Even Yoda wants the text burned.

    The movie didn't kill the golden goose. Sacred texts are not the only way to be a Jedi and nothing says that Luke found all of them. The movie set up a struggle with fear and how that leads to the dark side even if the fear is from another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Grogu is different because he's formally trained by Jedi of the Order, and has the potential to continue his training through Luke.
    Again you show a double standard. If Leia can't be considered a Jedi because she hasn't finished her training then Grogu can not be a Jedi because he also did not finish his training. Leia was formally trained to be a Jedi by Luke who you just stated was a Jedi and is a formal one. Can't have it both ways.
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  19. #3319
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you argue about Leia being a Jedi then say she is a random jedi they threw into the last movie just to train Rey. This is getting comical.
    I'm referring to Leia being a Jedi because that's what the movies wanted to paint her as, not what she should be regarded as canonically. The movies are breaking its own canon, and not even doing a good job of addressing the nuances of what the future of the Jedi Order would be, considering the old doctrines are gone. It's left completely up in the air.

    I'm calling her Jedi because that's what RoS wanted to portray her as, even though there's no real canonical reason to. That's what I'm arguing.

    It's like if there was a Spiderman movie that gave us a rival teenager who builds a multi-armed contraption and calls himself Doctor Octopus, but is way too young to actually be an actual Doctor. We can argue that the movie hasn't regarded the title properly, and is just carrying the name over because everyone expects it of the character. As fans, we can argue the contradictions between the character and title, even if everyone in the movie still refers to them as Doctor Octopus.

    The movie didn't kill the golden goose. Sacred texts are not the only way to be a Jedi and nothing says that Luke found all of them. The movie set up a struggle with fear and how that leads to the dark side even if the fear is from another.
    The movie set up one premise - to build something new you have to kill the old. That theme was carried through the entire movie, and Rian set out to destroy the old Jedi Order with a possible aim to create a new order that was not Jedi. But of course fans of Star Wars openly embrace the obvious Good vs Evil tropes that the series is based on, and RoS was a step in the wrong direction for a series that was supposed to be the continuation of the original movies.

    Again you show a double standard. If Leia can't be considered a Jedi because she hasn't finished her training then Grogu can not be a Jedi because he also did not finish his training. Leia was formally trained to be a Jedi by Luke who you just stated was a Jedi and is a formal one. Can't have it both ways.
    Choice is the difference.

    Luke was a fully recognized Jedi by means of acknowledgement by Yoda. He continued to follow the Jedi path (until TLJ).

    Leia chose not to follow the path and continue its ways. RoS had to revert that last minute, but it's too little too late since they never established her as a character who finished their Jedi training. Any reference to her being Jedi is pretty much informally applied, and frankly only contained within this movie. She's never been recognized as a Jedi outside of this context, and the fact that it does recognize her as being able to train other Jedis actually goes against the lore set by the prequels - this is why Ahsoka not training Grogu was actually an important part of the Mandalorian. Leia and Ahsoka are cut from the same cloth. Leia shouldn't be able to train Jedi, so Rey should technically not be a Jedi. But the movie simply states otherwise, and we have to accept it as canonical, despite the glaring contradiction.

    This is an oversight that was being addressed in Mandalorian. Ahsoka's refusal is the logical way it should have been handled. RoS used Leia because she happens to the last known Force-sensitive character established in the New Trilogy. It was too late to bring in another Jedi in hiding, and frankly I'm not sure why they didn't just have Ghost-Luke continue the training (and I'm sure fans will thank Kathleen Kennedy for that).

    Grogu hasn't made any choice. Grogu hadn't even existed yet in the series. So of course he wouldn't have been recognized as a Jedi in the New Trilogy. Even then, he could be considered still in training as a Padawan during the events of this timeline. Padawans are not formally Jedi.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 03:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  20. #3320
    Did you really have to spend last 4 or so pages arguing about who is or who is not a Jedi?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

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