1. #3061
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    I mean based on what we know if Grogu stays with Luke then he has to die at the temple, otherwise Luke isn't "The Last Jedi". The only other possibility is to have Grogu leave the temple prior to being trained and join back up with Mando but that would completely undo the main storyline of season 2. The way Favreau wrote things either an already existing narrative gets undone or Grogu dies.
    I had similar thoughts. But...there was a lot of...stuff inserted in the last episodes. They make the last three movies irellevant to me. That's why I'm thinking Disney isn't tone deaf to the criticism.

  2. #3062
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    I mean based on what we know if Grogu stays with Luke then he has to die at the temple, otherwise Luke isn't "The Last Jedi". The only other possibility is to have Grogu leave the temple prior to being trained and join back up with Mando but that would completely undo the main storyline of season 2. The way Favreau wrote things either an already existing narrative gets undone or Grogu dies.
    The easy thing to do is just completely retcon the new trilogy and throw into the dumpster since it was garbage and the idea of luke doing that is also garbage anyway..

    Second one is simple make him be elsewhere at the time, we know it will take a good bunch of years before the incident. Maybe there was more Jedi helping luke to train, maybe they send Grogu and another jedi to another world for training, even to discover more about his race/yoda.

  3. #3063
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    I mean based on what we know if Grogu stays with Luke then he has to die at the temple, otherwise Luke isn't "The Last Jedi". The only other possibility is to have Grogu leave the temple prior to being trained and join back up with Mando but that would completely undo the main storyline of season 2. The way Favreau wrote things either an already existing narrative gets undone or Grogu dies.
    There are more possibilities than just those two. A lot of time passes, they could complete a Jedi training storyline and still end up with him somewhere else by the time Kylo goes nuts. Or by the time Disney catches back up they could decide to just kick those films in the trash. It's likely to be a long time before they have to make any kind of call. My guess is that they'll keep their options open for a while and see where the sequels settle in the fandom.

  4. #3064
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    I mean based on what we know if Grogu stays with Luke then he has to die at the temple, otherwise Luke isn't "The Last Jedi". The only other possibility is to have Grogu leave the temple prior to being trained and join back up with Mando but that would completely undo the main storyline of season 2. The way Favreau wrote things either an already existing narrative gets undone or Grogu dies.
    Jedi is only a title. Remember we thought all the Jedi were dead with order 66 but any time the story need it a force user has been discovered (or created) to ignore that purge. Just like Ashoka in the show says she is no longer a Jedi and won't train Grogu. It really seems like a semantics issue though and Luke never was the last Jedi since Leia was technically one and helped train Rey.
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  5. #3065
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Jedi is only a title. Remember we thought all the Jedi were dead with order 66 but any time the story need it a force user has been discovered (or created) to ignore that purge. Just like Ashoka in the show says she is no longer a Jedi and won't train Grogu. It really seems like a semantics issue though and Luke never was the last Jedi since Leia was technically one and helped train Rey.
    Also, "Jedi" is a pretty specific term. I'd argue the "Last Jedi" that's being referred to in TLJ is Luke, not Rey, who rejected Luke's training and started forging her own path. The Jedi are not "all the good Force-users", as should be made clear by Ahsoka, who's pretty canonically their ethical superior; she abandoned the Jedi because the Jedi were ideologically corrupt.

    Leia was not ever Jedi. She had Force training from Luke, which is not the same thing. The Jedi are just a single (large) monastic order, one who admittedly genocide the fuck out of most non-Jedi Force users (the exceptions generally being those who can resist them with strength, or who can evade their pursuit, and the former are mostly Legends/EU stuff that's not canon anyway). There are plenty of other paths to the Force than just Jedi or Sith. Even if we just want to stick to canon, there's the Witches of Dathomir. They're mostly presented as evil in the Clone Wars, admittedly, but the character Merrin in Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order calls that into a lot of question.

    To become Jedi, you've gotta go through the rituals and all that. It's not just about using the Force and not being a baddie.


  6. #3066
    The word "Jedi" to me reflected a belief system that eventually became a purity test. And that, to me, is when a belief system becomes corrupted.

  7. #3067
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Leia was not ever Jedi.
    Nope. She was a jedi. She stopped training as one when she became pregnant because she had a vision that if she completed her Jedi training her unborn child would die. Up until that point she was her brothers apprentice and a fast study. She also trained Rey in the Jedi arts. For all intent and purposes Leia was a Jedi just not a high ranking or "full one" because she stopped training.
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  8. #3068
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nope. She was a jedi. She stopped training as one when she became pregnant because she had a vision that if she completed her Jedi training her unborn child would die. Up until that point she was her brothers apprentice and a fast study. She also trained Rey in the Jedi arts. For all intent and purposes Leia was a Jedi just not a high ranking or "full one" because she stopped training.
    The Jedi did not exist at that point.

    Unless she went through full Padawan progression and initiation, she was not a Jedi. And there's no indication that happened. Just that Luke trained her in the ways of the Force. Totally different things.


  9. #3069
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    The Jedi did not exist at that point. Unless she went through full Padawan progression and initiation, she was not a Jedi. And there's no indication that happened. Just that Luke trained her in the ways of the Force. Totally different things.
    The canon is that Luke was training her as his apprentice. Luke is considered to be a Jedi and even founded a new Jedi order. She was a training to be a Jedi and did not finish her training because of the visions she got.

    "After the Battle of Endor, Leia trained as a Jedi with Luke, but left the Jedi path after sensing it would result in the death of her son." https://www.starwars.com/databank/leia-organa

    There is more in the official Canon from the various stories that supports the above from the official website. You don't have to accept, or believe, Canon but it will remain true regardless.
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  10. #3070
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    I'd argue the "Last Jedi" that's being referred to in TLJ is Luke, not Rey, who rejected Luke's training and started forging her own path.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    I mean based on what we know if Grogu stays with Luke then he has to die at the temple, otherwise Luke isn't "The Last Jedi".
    Small reminder that in all languages where there is a difference between singular and plural forms, "The Last Jedi" was translated to the plural form (in french, "Les Derniers Jedi" for example, see on IMDB for the full list, I think it's the same for spanish and german titles). It was never about Luke only.

  11. #3071
    Quote Originally Posted by Fayolynn View Post
    I mean based on what we know if Grogu stays with Luke then he has to die at the temple, otherwise Luke isn't "The Last Jedi". The only other possibility is to have Grogu leave the temple prior to being trained and join back up with Mando but that would completely undo the main storyline of season 2. The way Favreau wrote things either an already existing narrative gets undone or Grogu dies.
    Or... F the new trilogy it's not canon.

    That is the way i see it. Problem solved.

  12. #3072
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Nope. She was a jedi. She stopped training as one when she became pregnant because she had a vision that if she completed her Jedi training her unborn child would die. Up until that point she was her brothers apprentice and a fast study. She also trained Rey in the Jedi arts. For all intent and purposes Leia was a Jedi just not a high ranking or "full one" because she stopped training.
    I think I agree with Endus. Luke may have thought her some stuff but that doesn't make her a Jedi. The Jedi are akin to a religion, a philosphical school that ones ascribes to at the very least. You're not a Jedi unless you subscribe to their teachings and way of life. Luke taught he how to utilize the Force but it doesn't seem like she was every on the path to becoming an actual Jedi. The same way Ahsoka stopped being a Jedi, Maul stopped being a Sith, Asajj Kylo and the Knights of Ren werent. Sith Being force-sensitive or carrying a lightsaber, or being trained by a member or either of the orders means that you belong to either.

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  13. #3073
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    Quote Originally Posted by PACOX View Post
    I think I agree with Endus. Luke may have thought her some stuff but that doesn't make her a Jedi. The Jedi are akin to a religion, a philosphical school that ones ascribes to at the very least. You're not a Jedi unless you subscribe to their teachings and way of life. Luke taught he how to utilize the Force but it doesn't seem like she was every on the path to becoming an actual Jedi. The same way Ahsoka stopped being a Jedi, Maul stopped being a Sith, Asajj Kylo and the Knights of Ren werent. Sith Being force-sensitive or carrying a lightsaber, or being trained by a member or either of the orders means that you belong to either.
    This. There are keys difference between being a Jedi or Sith and being trained as a Jedi or Sith.

    Jedi isn't akin to "Christian" it is more akin to "Catholic." You can believe in or even use the Force and be neither Jedi nor Sith (see the Bendu). We also have Force worshipping sects that are neither Jedi nor Sith or even Force Sensitive. You can be trained in the ways of the Jedi or Sith, but not be officially one.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  14. #3074
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Also, "Jedi" is a pretty specific term. I'd argue the "Last Jedi" that's being referred to in TLJ is Luke, not Rey, who rejected Luke's training and started forging her own path.
    It's 'Jedi' plural, not singular. German and Frech title respectively make that clear. 'Die Letzten Jedi/Les Dernieres Jedi'.

  15. #3075
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    This. There are keys difference between being a Jedi or Sith and being trained as a Jedi or Sith.
    Like I said you, and everyone else, can disagree with the official canon but that doesn't stop it from being true. Leai was being trained as a Jedi, built a light saber, learned advanced techniques, but didn't finish the training because of visions she received through the force. For all intents and purposes that makes her a Jedi but just one that didn't complete the training. She took what knowledge she had and used it to train Rey as a Jedi.

    For all intents and purposes that makes her a Jedi.
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  16. #3076
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Perhaps, but "being a Jedi" doesn't just mean you learn how to use their force powers, or build lightsabers. It's an order that you join, with specific beliefs and codes and etc. It'd be no different than me meeting a Shaolin monk here in the US somehow and them teaching me some of their martial arts before we part ways. It doesn't make me a monk. Just means I picked up some of their knowledge.
    Which Leia joined. She joined her brother's Jedi order and was his direct apprentice. She never completed her training because the force sent her visions that she would lose her unborn child if she did complete the training. She picked her child over the force. That doesn't mean she was never trained as a Jedi. Or that she stopped being a Jedi. Rey is considered to be a Jedi Master according to the canon. She was trained by Luke and later Leia.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  17. #3077
    I'm open to other orders existing...or being created.. As it is we've the general category of "force user."
    Jedi, Sith, umm...Revanite?
    What next?

  18. #3078
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Which Leia joined. She joined her brother's Jedi order and was his direct apprentice. She never completed her training because the force sent her visions that she would lose her unborn child if she did complete the training. She picked her child over the force. That doesn't mean she was never trained as a Jedi. Or that she stopped being a Jedi. Rey is considered to be a Jedi Master according to the canon. She was trained by Luke and later Leia.
    Rey has never been confirmed to be a Jedi Master, or even a Jedi Knight. It is applied she is a Knight at most though. However, what makes a Jedi Master is always up for debate as it assumed to be successfully training an apprentice to Knighthood which means it is possible that Luke was never a Jedi Master. Honestly, what makes a Sith Master is defined far better in canon.

    It is 100% true in canon to say "Leia isn't a Jedi." However, you are correct that it is perfectly valid to say that Leia was trained as a Jedi so she would understand how Jedi would teach and the ways of the Jedi. Just like someone who was raised Catholic would have understanding of the faith even if they leave it as an adult. Treating Leia as a Jedi and Leia being a Jedi are two different things. Leia is fully capable of teaching another person how to be a Jedi, despite not being one herself. Just like Ahsoka who likely would have been knighted if she had returned to the order in the Clone Wars.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    I'm open to other orders existing...or being created.. As it is we've the general category of "force user."
    Jedi, Sith, umm...Revanite?
    What next?
    Canon is: Jedi, Sith, Nightsisters, and THE Bendu. You have Dark Side apprentices: Asajj and Savage who are Sith adjacent. The Knights of Ren and the Inquisitors also would fall in that category. I haven't read anything in the High Republic yet ... I am behind on my Star Wars novels right now, so I don't know if any new ones were introduced.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  19. #3079
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Rey has never been confirmed to be a Jedi Master, or even a Jedi Knight.
    Yes she has.

    "Luke Skywalker : Because she saw your spirit. Your heart. Rey, some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don't face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost. "

    That was before the ending where it was confirmed by all the jedi ghosts that she was in fact a Jedi. Master, knight, padawan, youngling are all just titles and made up ranks. All of you keep looking for every little loophole to deny what is plain and simple. Rey is a Jedi and Leia is a jedi that never finished her training. It is even implied that the vision Leia had was setting up the events that would help Rey on her journey. But Rey studied from Jedi texts, healed a kyber crystal through jedi techniques, was taught by a Jedi and a half-trained Jedi, was endorsed by hundreds of past Jedi among other things not covered by those.
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  20. #3080
    Merely a Setback PACOX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Yes she has.

    "Luke Skywalker : Because she saw your spirit. Your heart. Rey, some things are stronger than blood. Confronting fear is the destiny of a Jedi. Your destiny. If you don't face Palpatine, it will mean the end of the Jedi, and the war will be lost. "

    That was before the ending where it was confirmed by all the jedi ghosts that she was in fact a Jedi. Master, knight, padawan, youngling are all just titles and made up ranks. All of you keep looking for every little loophole to deny what is plain and simple. Rey is a Jedi and Leia is a jedi that never finished her training. It is even implied that the vision Leia had was setting up the events that would help Rey on her journey. But Rey studied from Jedi texts, healed a kyber crystal through jedi techniques, was taught by a Jedi and a half-trained Jedi, was endorsed by hundreds of past Jedi among other things not covered by those.
    So at best you're saying she had to leave the Order and stopped practicing the Jedi ways, which would still mean she isn't a Jedi, just like several other canon charaters who left the Order.

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