1. #3121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    I did? Where did I say it was a requirement?
    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Joe View Post
    You're reading something that isn't there. I would agree with you that training padawans is probably the most common way knights advanced to masters.
    What is the common way if not the standard requirement? Since you'll believe Wookieepedia over a person using both it and other sources of Canon information you will agree with me? Right? https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Jed...ind_the_scenes
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  2. #3122
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is not pure speculation. Who else would Luke have been referring to? If he knew of other Jedi why wouldn't he have sent Rey to them to be trained? We know that Luke was regularly communicating as a ghost.
    I'd need to see the exact quotes to be able to discuss. I don't know exactly which part of what movie you're talking about, so I can't really answer.

    If Leia is not a Jedi even though she is both teaching and using Jedi techniques then someone finding Jedi texts also wouldn't be a Jedi.
    Correct. You understand there is a paradox.

    What the movies have effectively done is ignored the paradox completely, because the people who headed the new trilogy aren't concerned about the details as much as the fans (and Favreau and Filoni) do.

    The problem was caused by The Last Jedi and having Luke die without having trained Rey at all. Instead of a Yoda-Luke passing of the torch, we have an incomplete cycle where Rey and Leia are not formally a Jedi, they just decide to call themselves that regardless of the Order. And of course, there's really no way they're going to throw in some random Force sensitive Jedi into the last movie just to train Rey - The closest person they had in the movies was Leia. Rian Johnson intended to do away with the Jedi Order, so of course he wouldn't seed any other Jedi into his movie, while RoS is painted into a corner by the previous two movies establishing that there are no Jedi characters left in the story (as understood by the Last Jedi).


    The problems we're talking about are problems with the lore of the movies themselves. The movies do nothing to address the actual Jedi ways being carried into the future. It's left completely ambiguous, and the only hint is Rey choosing to adopt the Skywalker name, and calling herself a Jedi because that's what fans would expect of a Star Wars movie even though it goes against the lore set up by the Prequels that laid out how the Jedi Order actually worked.

    Having those texts destroyed in The Last Jedi should have symbolically destroyed the Jedi Order. RoS made a veiled attempt to salvage the Jedi name because they realized the last movie killed the Golden Goose and they need to fix those mistakes, even if it means screwing up the canon.

    You can't have it both ways and change things simply to fit the argument you are making. Anakin never killed every Jedi anyways. There have always been Jedi that escaped by Order 66 and Darth Vader. If Leia can't be called a Jedi then neither can Grogu but you are already making exceptions to say he isn't a full Jedi. That is still being a Jedi. Wouldn't Leia be a Jedi but just not a full one? Since she would be in the same state as Grogu?
    Luke can be a Jedi because he finished his training, despite never having been a formal Padawan. He was recognized by a formal Jedi in the movies; Yoda, and that is enough to go on. From there, Luke finding sacred texts would be savvy, since he is dedicated to reviving the Order.

    Leia chose not to complete her training, and did not seek that path. She was trained by Luke, but not formally recognized as a Jedi, even in the movies.

    Grogu is different because he's formally trained by Jedi of the Order, and has the potential to continue his training through Luke. We simply don't know what lies ahead for him, whether he even chooses to continue the Jedi path. He hasn't made that decision yet, whereas we know the paths that Luke and Leia took.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 02:48 AM.

  3. #3123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'd need to see the exact quotes to be able to discuss. I don't know exactly which part of what movie you're talking about, so I can't really answer.
    How do you need the exact quote when it was the line following the one you gave. It is kind of weird to give quotes about Kylo saying he will kill the last jedi and not understand the context of it.

    Kylo Ren : I'm sure you are! The Resistance is dead, the war is over, and when I kill you, I will have killed the last Jedi!
    Luke Skywalker : Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. The Rebellion is reborn today. The war is just beginning. And I will not be the last Jedi.
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The problem was caused by The Last Jedi and having Luke die without having trained Rey at all. Instead of a Yoda-Luke passing of the torch, we have an incomplete cycle where neither the Master or the Apprentice are formally Jedi, they just decide to call themselves that regardless of the Order. And of course, there's really no way they're going to throw in some random Force sensitive Jedi into the last movie just to train Rey - oh wait that's EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID WITH LEIA
    So you argue about Leia being a Jedi then say she is a random jedi they threw into the last movie just to train Rey. This is getting comical. First you don't understand the context of the quote you yourself used. Then you do say Leia is a Jedi while still arguing against it. The movies also do address the Jedi legacy being carried into the future. We have Jedi texts. We have Luke. We have ghost luke catching a lightsaber. We have Leia being shown training Rey. We have hundreds of Jedi ghosts crowding around Rey. It was setting up the theme that the Jedi at the end were to concerned with the rules and regulations. Even Yoda wants the text burned.

    The movie didn't kill the golden goose. Sacred texts are not the only way to be a Jedi and nothing says that Luke found all of them. The movie set up a struggle with fear and how that leads to the dark side even if the fear is from another.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Grogu is different because he's formally trained by Jedi of the Order, and has the potential to continue his training through Luke.
    Again you show a double standard. If Leia can't be considered a Jedi because she hasn't finished her training then Grogu can not be a Jedi because he also did not finish his training. Leia was formally trained to be a Jedi by Luke who you just stated was a Jedi and is a formal one. Can't have it both ways.
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  4. #3124
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you argue about Leia being a Jedi then say she is a random jedi they threw into the last movie just to train Rey. This is getting comical.
    I'm referring to Leia being a Jedi because that's what the movies wanted to paint her as, not what she should be regarded as canonically. The movies are breaking its own canon, and not even doing a good job of addressing the nuances of what the future of the Jedi Order would be, considering the old doctrines are gone. It's left completely up in the air.

    I'm calling her Jedi because that's what RoS wanted to portray her as, even though there's no real canonical reason to. That's what I'm arguing.

    It's like if there was a Spiderman movie that gave us a rival teenager who builds a multi-armed contraption and calls himself Doctor Octopus, but is way too young to actually be an actual Doctor. We can argue that the movie hasn't regarded the title properly, and is just carrying the name over because everyone expects it of the character. As fans, we can argue the contradictions between the character and title, even if everyone in the movie still refers to them as Doctor Octopus.

    The movie didn't kill the golden goose. Sacred texts are not the only way to be a Jedi and nothing says that Luke found all of them. The movie set up a struggle with fear and how that leads to the dark side even if the fear is from another.
    The movie set up one premise - to build something new you have to kill the old. That theme was carried through the entire movie, and Rian set out to destroy the old Jedi Order with a possible aim to create a new order that was not Jedi. But of course fans of Star Wars openly embrace the obvious Good vs Evil tropes that the series is based on, and RoS was a step in the wrong direction for a series that was supposed to be the continuation of the original movies.

    Again you show a double standard. If Leia can't be considered a Jedi because she hasn't finished her training then Grogu can not be a Jedi because he also did not finish his training. Leia was formally trained to be a Jedi by Luke who you just stated was a Jedi and is a formal one. Can't have it both ways.
    Choice is the difference.

    Luke was a fully recognized Jedi by means of acknowledgement by Yoda. He continued to follow the Jedi path (until TLJ).

    Leia chose not to follow the path and continue its ways. RoS had to revert that last minute, but it's too little too late since they never established her as a character who finished their Jedi training. Any reference to her being Jedi is pretty much informally applied, and frankly only contained within this movie. She's never been recognized as a Jedi outside of this context, and the fact that it does recognize her as being able to train other Jedis actually goes against the lore set by the prequels - this is why Ahsoka not training Grogu was actually an important part of the Mandalorian. Leia and Ahsoka are cut from the same cloth. Leia shouldn't be able to train Jedi, so Rey should technically not be a Jedi. But the movie simply states otherwise, and we have to accept it as canonical, despite the glaring contradiction.

    This is an oversight that was being addressed in Mandalorian. Ahsoka's refusal is the logical way it should have been handled. RoS used Leia because she happens to the last known Force-sensitive character established in the New Trilogy. It was too late to bring in another Jedi in hiding, and frankly I'm not sure why they didn't just have Ghost-Luke continue the training (and I'm sure fans will thank Kathleen Kennedy for that).

    Grogu hasn't made any choice. Grogu hadn't even existed yet in the series. So of course he wouldn't have been recognized as a Jedi in the New Trilogy. Even then, he could be considered still in training as a Padawan during the events of this timeline. Padawans are not formally Jedi.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-06-10 at 03:36 AM.

  5. #3125
    Did you really have to spend last 4 or so pages arguing about who is or who is not a Jedi?
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  6. #3126
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I didn't declare them canon. Disney did. If the canon value of the book is not known then nothing can be considered canon because their value is never stated. Even the movies change most notably with who shot first. Which is canon? The first way? The second way? The way X person says? The books? This is your problem. You are basing value on how closely it aligns with your views.
    No. Disney did not declare that book canon. They made a sourcebook for information. And that sourcebook has at least 4 errors. It's canon value is in question, and it is YOU not Disney claiming it is 100% canon.

    Are you aware that Obi-wan became a Jedi Master and that Anakin was his only Padawan? Obi-wan was allowed to the rank of master once Anakin became a Knight. That puts a wrench in your entire premise. You are going with your head canon which isn't surprising given how you've stated you value books that don't' agree with you less then ones that do.
    That isn't a wrench in my argument, because I don't accept that the only way to be a Master is to take an apprentice. There is no head canon in my argument. YOU have head canon. Do not project and don't combine my argument with the other people who are telling you that you are wrong.

    Where is the canon that says that? I provide one where she clearly thought of herself as an informal master. We have a canon source stating that Leia thought Rey need training that was not from a formal master. Leia thought that non-formal master was herself. You don't know how the galaxy considered her since there is very little Disney Era material exploring that.

    Again if she can be considered to be a Jedi based on canon then she is for all intents and purposes a Jedi. Even if it only applies in some contexts that still means she is a Jedi. You are only saying that it applies sometimes because you can't refute canon but also won't accept your head canon as being wrong. Pick one not both. Like I said the duck test applies here.
    No. That's not how it works. Context matters, we can consider Ahsoka a Jedi in certain contexts, but to Ahsoka she was not a Jedi. You are confusing how we can discuss the concept with the actual label in universe. Why are you not understanding this? And this is projecting again. YOU ARE THE ONE USING HEAD CANON.

    For example, for the purposes of Order 66, Maul counted as a Jedi and Anakin did not. Despite Maul never being a Jedi, and Anakin having just fallen to the Dark Side. Leia can be treated as a Jedi when we are talking about Jedi teaching or using Jedi to mean trained Force User. Leia is NOT a Jedi in universe. You cannot claim as a fact Leia IS a Jedi, because she does not have that title. Just like you have to say Dooku WAS a Jedi prior to the Clone Wars.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-10 at 10:19 AM.
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  7. #3127
    Hmf... I think papa is only interested in seeing his son trained in the ethical use if the Force, and gaining some self discipline and restraint.
    That Jedi business is likely very low on the priority list. And since the movies don't do much of a job going indepth about it all I won't be surprised at changes. (One thing I absolutely loved about Empire Strikes Back was Luke's training. But damn it...for the sake of story it was cut short)

  8. #3128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No. Disney did not declare that book canon. They made a sourcebook for information. And that sourcebook has at least 4 errors. It's canon value is in question, and it is YOU not Disney claiming it is 100% canon.
    They didn't? How do you know? Is it just because it doesn't fit your head canon? The owners of the IP published a book on the IP. It is canon. Containing errors doesn't change anything since the Novels Disney is having produced contain errors as well. Some of those errors even change the genders of characters previously mentioned in lore.

    Also it is incorrect. You are the one claiming it is not canon. At face value it is canon unless Disney has specifically stated it is not. That is the problem here. You are the one assigning sourcebooks as quasi-canon. You. Not Disney.

    No. That's not how it works. Context matters, we can consider Ahsoka a Jedi in certain contexts, but to Ahsoka she was not a Jedi.
    If she is not a Jedi then she is not a Jedi. If Leia is not a Jedi for being an informal master training another student in that context then you are just lying to save face. Did you seriously try to claim that Palpatine would have killed the apprentice he was grooming for Order 66? What kind of Star Wars fan are you if you think that is a serious argument to have.
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  9. #3129
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They didn't? How do you know? Is it just because it doesn't fit your head canon? The owners of the IP published a book on the IP. It is canon. Containing errors doesn't change anything since the Novels Disney is having produced contain errors as well. Some of those errors even change the genders of characters previously mentioned in lore.

    Also it is incorrect. You are the one claiming it is not canon. At face value it is canon unless Disney has specifically stated it is not. That is the problem here. You are the one assigning sourcebooks as quasi-canon. You. Not Disney.
    Sourcebooks are just that. Sourcebooks. They are secondary canon at best, and this is true across ALL fandoms. Unless what the sourcebook says is supported by canon material, the actual work, it should always be taken with a grain of salt. Why can't you get this? I am not saying it is "not canon" I am saying that you cannot claim it is canon. Those are not synonyms.

    If she is not a Jedi then she is not a Jedi. If Leia is not a Jedi for being an informal master training another student in that context then you are just lying to save face. Did you seriously try to claim that Palpatine would have killed the apprentice he was grooming for Order 66? What kind of Star Wars fan are you if you think that is a serious argument to have.
    How do you always manage to mangle the arguments? No, I am not claiming that. I am stating for the purposes of Order 66, Anakin did not count as a Jedi while Maul did. Despite Maul never being a Jedi, he was CONSIDERED one for the purpose and thus CONTEXT of Order 66, while Anakin who WAS a Jedi was not consider a Jedi in the same context. Your argument of "If true in one context, it is true for all contexts" is garbage and even you know it.

    And now you restore to gatekeeping.
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  10. #3130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Sourcebooks are just that. Sourcebooks. They are secondary canon at best, and this is true across ALL fandoms. Unless what the sourcebook says is supported by canon material, the actual work, it should always be taken with a grain of salt. Why can't you get this? I am not saying it is "not canon" I am saying that you cannot claim it is canon. Those are not synonyms.
    A reference book has never been considered secondary canon at best. It is equal to any other source save for the primary medium which in this case is the movies. If something can not be claimed as canon then you are saying that it is not canon. Lol.


    How do you always manage to mangle the arguments? No, I am not claiming that. I am stating for the purposes of Order 66, Anakin did not count as a Jedi while Maul did. Despite Maul never being a Jedi, he was CONSIDERED one for the purpose and thus CONTEXT of Order 66, while Anakin who WAS a Jedi was not consider a Jedi in the same context. Your argument of "If true in one context, it is true for all contexts" is garbage and even you know it. And now you restore to gatekeeping.
    Gate Keeping? How am I gate keeping? You as someone who is so serious about Star Wars that you made your user name include Darth made the argument that Order 66 should have killed Anakin as well. It isn't gate keeping to say how ridiculous that statement is. Maul wasn't a target of Order 66 because he was somehow a Jedi. He was included because he was a threat to Palpatine. Those who were not a threat were left alone and those who were a threat were killed. You can't make an argument that Maul was a Jedi just because of Order 66.

    If Leia can not be considered a Jedi while teaching another the ways of the force and implying that she is an informal master then there is no context where she can be considered one.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2021-06-10 at 02:10 PM.
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  11. #3131
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    A reference book has never been considered secondary canon at best. It is equal to any other source save for the primary medium which in this case is the movies. If something can not be claimed as canon then you are saying that it is not canon. Lol.
    Yes, they are. The official work is always a higher priority. That by definition, makes it a SECONDARY source at best. AND WE DON'T ACTUALLY EVEN HAVE THE SOURCE. We have Wookieepedia telling us what the source said in the first place.

    Gate Keeping? How am I gate keeping? You as someone who is so serious about Star Wars that you made your user name include Darth made the argument that Order 66 should have killed Anakin as well. It isn't gate keeping to say how ridiculous that statement is. Maul wasn't a target of Order 66 because he was somehow a Jedi. He was included because he was a threat to Palpatine. Those who were not a threat were left alone and those who were a threat were killed. You can't make an argument that Maul was a Jedi just because of Order 66.

    If Leia can not be considered a Jedi while teaching another the ways of the force and implying that she is an informal master then there is no context where she can be considered one.
    Order 66 is specifically the order to kill the Jedi. That's what Order 66 is, it isn't the Order to kill all threats to Palpatine. I am not saying Order 66 should have killed Anakin, please show me exactly where I said that? I didn't. I said for the PURPOSES of Order 66, Anakin didn't count as a Jedi. That is LITERALLY the opposite of what you are claiming it is saying.

    This is gate keeping statement:
    What kind of Star Wars fan are you if you think that is a serious argument to have.
    You are questioning my quality of being a fan. That's gatekeeping because the only implication is to claim I am not a real fan or I am different. It has no bearing on this argument. Not that you even actually address what people are actually saying to you as you have completely mangled my argument to claim I am saying something that is the exact opposite of my argument.

    For the context of Order 66, which is the Protocol baked into Clones to kill all Jedi as traitors to the republic (not all Threats to Palpatine), that in that context Maul who was never a Jedi can be viewed to count as one while Anakin who was one did not. So, for the purposes of Order 66, Anakin was not a Jedi. Nothing in this statement is saying that "Anakin should have been killed by Order 66." That doesn't remotely follow from what I said.

    For the purposes of training, you can view Leia as a Jedi. However, just because she can serve as a Jedi in that context does not make her a Jedi across all contexts or necessitate she is a Jedi. What you constantly cannot understand, just because you can treat a character as something does not then make it factually true they are that thing.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-10 at 02:36 PM.
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  12. #3132
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, they are. The official work is always a higher priority. That by definition, makes it a SECONDARY source at best.
    So it is as a good as any other non-movie source. Gotcha. Weird that we come full circle to you stating exactly what I have the entire time.


    Order 66 is specifically the order to kill the Jedi. That's what Order 66 is, it isn't the Order to kill all threats to Palpatine. I am not saying Order 66 should have killed Anakin, please show me exactly where I said that? I didn't. I said for the PURPOSES of Order 66, Anakin didn't count as a Jedi. That is LITERALLY the opposite of what you are claiming it is saying.
    Anakin didn't count because he was given immunity from the order. It has nothing to do with him counting as a Jedi or not counting as a Jedi.

    You are questioning my quality of being a fan. That's gatekeeping because the only implication is to claim I am not a real fan or I am different. It has no bearing on this argument. Not that you even actually address what people are actually saying to you as you have completely mangled my argument to claim I am saying something that is the exact opposite of my argument.
    You were making an absurd argument that a basic fan would know. It wasn't gate keeping but it was calling out the absurdity of your argument when you should know better by the assumption of you being more then an average fan given your username. I haven't mangled your argument at all. You have done that. I am just applying your argument as you have made it.

    If Leia can be called a Jedi in certain contexts only then wouldn't the context of her acting as an informal master to train a person as a Jedi at the behest of her dead brother's force ghost be a context that she can be considered a Jedi? If that doesn't count as her being considered a Jedi then there really is no context at all that would make her a Jedi.
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  13. #3133
    I'm willing to say that The Mandolorian series is the best part of all of Star Wars. Slightly edging over Episodes 4-5-6.

    The story is just told better. The side quests and all. It's just all so pleasant to watch.

  14. #3134
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So it is as a good as any other non-movie source. Gotcha. Weird that we come full circle to you stating exactly what I have the entire time.
    No. Novels, Television Shows, comics, etc ... all higher than sourcebooks. Sourcebooks are always treated as secondary sources to all these.

    Anakin didn't count because he was given immunity from the order. It has nothing to do with him counting as a Jedi or not counting as a Jedi.
    For the context of Order 66, you can view Anakin as "not a Jedi."

    You were making an absurd argument that a basic fan would know. It wasn't gate keeping but it was calling out the absurdity of your argument when you should know better by the assumption of you being more then an average fan given your username. I haven't mangled your argument at all. You have done that. I am just applying your argument as you have made it.
    No, I made no absurd statement. You just didn't bother to read what I wrote and made up bs claiming it was what I said. Therefore, that only leaves gatekeeping as the reason to make your statement at best.

    If Leia can be called a Jedi in certain contexts only then wouldn't the context of her acting as an informal master to train a person as a Jedi at the behest of her dead brother's force ghost be a context that she can be considered a Jedi? If that doesn't count as her being considered a Jedi then there really is no context at all that would make her a Jedi.
    Because in that context she can be viewed as a Jedi, but that does not make her a Jedi in all contexts, nor does it actually make her a Jedi. I am arguing against the idea that Leia is a Jedi, by definition but rather she can only viewed as a Jedi in specific contexts which is more for the ease of communication as opposed to a canon label given to the character. Akin to again, Anakin not being considered a Jedi for the purposes of Order 66.

    What is hysterical to me is you claim my statement on Anakin is "absurd" despite using your own logic to make the claim. So, yeah, keep mangling the arguments because you are too lazy to pay attention.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-10 at 02:55 PM.
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  15. #3135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    No. Novels, Televsion Shows, comics, etc ... all higher than sourcebooks.
    Nope. "The Star Wars Book" is a reference book. It is considered to have canon information just as much as any other non-movie work. Stop creating a double standard just so you can dismiss the information it provides simply because you don't like that information.

    For the context of Order 66, you can view Anakin as "not a Jedi."
    His status as a Jedi is irrelevant. His status as the apprentice of Palpatine is what determined Order 66 applying to him. Just like Order 66 did not apply to Maul but his status as a enemy got him the same treatment.

    Because in that context she can be viewed as a Jedi,
    So you agreed with me and spent multiple pages for no reason. Gotcha. Lmao.
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  16. #3136
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So you agreed with me and spent multiple pages for no reason. Gotcha. Lmao.
    The reason was because rather than read what I actually wrote, you had instead chosen to make up some bs claiming it was what I said. So I spend time to correct your inaccuracies.

    And no, reference book is just another term for source book. I am not saying it doesn't have canon information, I am saying once again that those books canon status is ALWAYS taken with a grain of salt. You can treat them as canon, but how canon they actually are is always in question. ESPECIALLY ones known to contain errors.

    Questioning the canon status of a work =/= claiming it is non canon.

    And once again, I have to remind you that you aren't quoting The Star Wars Book. You are quoting Wookieepedia referencing The Star Wars books. Wookieepedia is a reference tool, and should only be used as such. I generally only use it to support books that I have read currently at this time.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2021-06-10 at 03:11 PM.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  17. #3137
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And no, reference book is just another term for source book. I am not saying it doesn't have canon information, I am saying once again that those books canon status is ALWAYS taken with a grain of salt. You can treat them as canon, but how canon they actually are is always in question. ESPECIALLY ones known to contain errors.
    There are as canon as any other medium then the movies (and now the few shows). You keep trying to assign them a lower value just so you can pick and choose what parts of the book you accept as canon and the parts you dismiss because it doesn't agree with what you like. Until a newer work comes out to say otherwise, or Disney deliberate says it is not canon, then it is 100% canon. Errors are errors and exist in anything. Disney has made a lot of errors in their secondary works and seems to have a problem with continuity. Like I mentioned earlier they have screwed up genders of characters from other works a few times.

    I have always read what you actually wrote. The entire thing with Leia started because you took issue with me calling her a Jedi. After a dozen or so posts you finally admit I was right in the context I was making the statement. You spent time to correct what you just got done saying is accurate. Because you worked yourself into a logic trap and don't want to back track your semantics of context.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There are as canon as any other medium then the movies (and now the few shows). You keep trying to assign them a lower value just so you can pick and choose what parts of the book you accept as canon and the parts you dismiss because it doesn't agree with what you like. Until a newer work comes out to say otherwise, or Disney deliberate says it is not canon, then it is 100% canon. Errors are errors and exist in anything. Disney has made a lot of errors in their secondary works and seems to have a problem with continuity. Like I mentioned earlier they have screwed up genders of characters from other works a few times.

    I have always read what you actually wrote. The entire thing with Leia started because you took issue with me calling her a Jedi. After a dozen or so posts you finally admit I was right in the context I was making the statement. You spent time to correct what you just got done saying is accurate. Because you worked yourself into a logic trap and don't want to back track your semantics of context.
    Because they are.

    And clearly no, because my FIRST POST to you directly included this paragraph:

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    It is 100% true in canon to say "Leia isn't a Jedi." However, you are correct that it is perfectly valid to say that Leia was trained as a Jedi so she would understand how Jedi would teach and the ways of the Jedi. Just like someone who was raised Catholic would have understanding of the faith even if they leave it as an adult. Treating Leia as a Jedi and Leia being a Jedi are two different things. Leia is fully capable of teaching another person how to be a Jedi, despite not being one herself. Just like Ahsoka who likely would have been knighted if she had returned to the order in the Clone Wars.
    So I'll take that apology now.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

  19. #3139
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    So I'll take that apology now.
    Why would I appologize for something you've shown I did not do. If I was arguing the point that you raised in your first post I couldn't have also mangled what you've said. Right? This entire thing started from me saying Leia was a Jedi. You've shown that she was a Jedi in certain contexts which means for all intents and purposes she is a Jedi. Look up the duck test.

    The sourcebooks are not a lower form of canon just because you say so. Reference books have always been a source of canon for as long as Star Wars has been producing them. There is a reason why would could flip through and find statistics about ships from the ship almanacs. Or planets from the planet ones. Because they have been sources of canon material and are equal to anything else. Like all works of fiction though they can be invalidated when ever the owners of that fiction want. That is true for all things even the movies as the whole "Han shot first" debacle indicated.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Why would I appologize for something you've shown I did not do. If I was arguing the point that you raised in your first post I couldn't have also mangled what you've said. Right? This entire thing started from me saying Leia was a Jedi. You've shown that she was a Jedi in certain contexts which means for all intents and purposes she is a Jedi. Look up the duck test.

    The sourcebooks are not a lower form of canon just because you say so. Reference books have always been a source of canon for as long as Star Wars has been producing them. There is a reason why would could flip through and find statistics about ships from the ship almanacs. Or planets from the planet ones. Because they have been sources of canon material and are equal to anything else. Like all works of fiction though they can be invalidated when ever the owners of that fiction want. That is true for all things even the movies as the whole "Han shot first" debacle indicated.
    That's not what all intents and purposes mean. No, specific contexts you can treat Leia as a Jedi. But in no context is she one. How we can treat a character and what the character actually is are not the same thing. Leia is factually not a Jedi, however that does not prevent people from treating her as one in specific contexts. For the purposes of teaching Rey, you can view Leia as a Jedi but that does not then make Leia a Jedi nor applies she is a Jedi in any other context, period.

    And reference/source books have ALWAYS been treated a secondary canon to actual material. This doesn't mean they don't contain canon information, or that they are not canon. It means that you should not assume it is canon without support from the work. Rey has not appear in any canon material post RoS, therefore there is no support she "eventually became a Master" therefore, it is perfectly valid to question that claim ... especially when having a source go through a telephone like chain. The fact you are painting what is 100% reasonable reaction to your claim as "absurdity" speaks highly of you.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
    –The Sith Code

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