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  1. #161
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    PrairieChicken
    For PVP, gear should not matter at all,

    For PVE, scaling is a bad idea I agree
    Wrong for 1st and True for 2nd. Have to quote friend since messages already been made (this will be faster for me), but were deleted with whole those threads (stupid people cried about they don't want "gear matters" in PvP, done about 2 month ago, from eu forum):
    Quote №1.
    There are three main factors for which gear is responsible:
    1) Dividing characteristics (dividing pvp-pve game component progression)

    - Whole this game's balance and tuning revolves around characteristics, which I have already repeatedly mentioned <url> If you don't understand this, then there is nothing to talk about with you. Therefore, with removing rating secondary characteristics they undermine setting/division between different game activities, areas of interest (that's for what were pve-powers = hit, expertise, mastery, mp5/spirit and others so 'unloved', 'boring' by all of you indicators, together with pvp-power = resilience; forget about pvp-perks/hit-pvp-target-item(lvl)-scaling, for such mechanic of 'restrictions' has no lore/theoretical substantiation in the game, in fact, like what the 'classes' have become now - complete nonsense) => items=characteristics are important for reinforcing your field of activity => gear should matter.
    2) General characteristics (individual customization)
    - Since each participant of any activity chooses specific self role, it requires existence of so-called general characteristics that are relevant for any type of activity. Moreover, preferences of different participants will also differ (more haste, more crit, more whatever he/she wants) and by cutting them off (for example by templates) you cut their strategy/opportunities, you make useless all work and knowledge that is spent/required for intelligent individual customization (remember enchanting, jewelcrafting, engineering, leatherworking, tailoring, blacksmithing insertions, also some of them had differentiation by utility too and reforging) => items=characteristics are important for reinforcing your individual gameplay => gear should matter.
    3) Progress (time investment)
    - Enough has been said about this, but I'll also clarify something else: progress is an indicator of how long you have been participating in specific activity (yes, this is RPG indicator, but not only), because no one will ask for gear from last pve part (raid) for free or make everyone equal, people will laugh because it's stupid (we're all equal at the start, and the rest is depends on us), it'll take you some time to meet requirements (forget now about LFR, many artificial complexity systems and RNG/scaling-loot, these are incorrect additions to game, parasitic, worsening balance and progress), but why should this approach be different for last pvp part (season) in the same game? Those who mention MOBA games (at best, it should be about FPS, but there also have some pitfalls) are wrong, because time is also needed there, character gets experience and collects/buys gear => without items and time it'll be inconsequential, which still means tha-a-at.. What? True! => gear should matter.
    === Gear must matter for this game! ===

    Without taking into account all these 3 factors, your discussion has no chance to be in any way constructive. We have already touched a bit of this here when I remembered Witch's curses (read quoted part there, it's just about your case): <url> (<url>)

    Quote №2.
    In fact, problem in: they try to escape from mathematics, and impose conditions that were initially controlled completely through characteristics. Do you know how to do it right? Through stats and characteristics. And each ability in every formula will use them, that's all. Yes, yes, I see many of you already guessed where I'm heading - it's about resilience/pvp-power, which isn't included for pve-damage/healing (this by the way why healer with 'stacking' it will heal/regen/recover less and often very much less - as a penalty for a greater survival rate, or would be killed with several shots by other players) calculation formula for characters controlled by computer (except for those that are supposed to be used for pvp content, for example - BGs). The only thing that it shouldn't be attached to characters 'by default': let raid items give a certain size of resilience too (same as pvp ones - hit/mastery), but very insignificant, and since pvp items have much more of it, it's more convenient for this part of content, than pve items should contain more others (parameters useful in another area) such as hit/expertise/mastery/def/amount of spirit and etc. Oh.. you didn't like it? What a pity.. but this is the way it works. Exactly! Stuff that not make you stronger in this part of content, but make you much more compatible with another. That's how to do it right. You don't need even care about how/where it's been used mode/flag/whatever.. but not through just switching off or weaken them without mathematics. This is why they so poor with balance, they just don't know how to control it proper. Apotheosis of this idiocy are pvp-perks.

    Same way they came up with idea like items-talents - artifact/legendary/azerite armor and other nonsense instead of characteristics, so that they always have opportunity to take them away/switch off unhindered; and there is no need to solve problem with ilvl growth, even if its changes from 200-500 during one expansion, brilliant lazy solution together with scaling/M+/RNG-stuff; just switch them off! And the less such characteristics in game, the impunityer can developers behave. (2Qaren warmode have all problems only for 1 reason, it should be BG-mode, not something that replaced pvp-servers, and no any stupid pvp-perks can help with this). Do you see now how deep the rabbit hole goes? I already talked almost about all of these things:
    <url><url><url>
    The cycle is almost closed, wait for more later >:]

    I understand that they don't want to give players opportunity to control this (parameters), as it can lead to some cunning and 'terrible' outcome that developers <url> haven't calculated. Do you know why? Because they're bad at math, because they still don't understand how this game works. They don't want RPG, they don't want math, they don't even want MMO, they just want 'options' <url> like more than a half of their current playbase ;}

    Don't pay special attention to "playful style" of communication, he always behaves this way
    A little more explanation of this stuff here.


    In short, according to 1st quote, point is that gear = characteristics are important for separation content areas, for individual RPG customization and as indicator of character's progress in this content (since “content” is available from the beginning for PvP, rating talks more about your skill, but gear - about your progress;
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    MoanaLisa
    Limited time to play implies more solo play so PVE is a natural choice.
    I'd say that statement would be true only if obtaining progress and content mostly tied to it (since limited time =<priority>= profit activities), but since there is no specialization in characteristics (PvP vs PvE) and PvP doesn't usually take precedence in direct progress for such conditions (since encounters aren't limited by CD, they're controlled(/exploitable) by players and take lesser time), your statement is absolutely true. It's logical, because conclusion in this case is obvious and no any stupid PvP talents will be able to prevent this. I'd criticize word "solo" in same way, but I won't.
    these concepts are somewhat blurred for PVE (because of LFR/M+(-vicious opinion) multi-level difficulty, with mentioned balance/progress system's+ violation/overlap)). And 2nd talking about devs don't like base/fundamental characteristics and they're unnoticeably trying to remove/replace them (look at AA which don't have any) with temporary/deactivable/option-like ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    2. Characteristics (&shame to PvP talent system + time-gate/catch-up, item-case) +(+/+/+/+/+/+)+/+/+
    ps. Choose which of messages you understand more.
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-09-29 at 06:14 AM.
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  2. #162
    Pandaren Monk Tart's Avatar
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    Some people are really setting themselves up to eat a huge slice of humble pie regarding vanilla failing. Yes the current crop of retail players will soon loose interest due to their home comforts being stripped, but there is a huge sleeping base of players ready to come back for classic alone.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dizson View Post
    It's funny that you mentioned PvP, because its scales and azerite traits are so horrible that it doesn't matter at all.
    Mythic+ this is just another keep you dragged with fake rewards that you can't really use outside mythic raid.
    WQ enjoy your 2 sec advantage over my non mythic gear.




    This is true, people still buy the game because they loved WoW at some point, there is always hype around a new expansion, people expect it to be good, then people quit after a few days or months and resub from time to time to check if it got better.
    WQ scale till certain ilvl. Just dont spit crap because you feel like.

    I'm playing the same game and I see a huge diference when completing WQs.

    And what kind of advantage you want? Mythic gear auto attack one shot vs 10 or 15 secs with no Mythic gear?

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Tart View Post
    Some people are really setting themselves up to eat a huge slice of humble pie regarding vanilla failing. Yes the current crop of retail players will soon loose interest due to their home comforts being stripped, but there is a huge sleeping base of players ready to come back for classic alone.
    Gear mattered in vanilla but it wasn't a huge power difference. In BFA, gear doesn't matter and that is frankly sad.

  5. #165
    While gear does matter it's more that you no longer set goals for yourself that you work towards. You stumble over random rewards that happens to be upgrades. In the end it comes down to personal preference. I'm an old school RPG player so I prefer the first method, random gear being thrown at me that I have to sift through makes me not care.

  6. #166
    I don't care about gear whatsoever since Legion. This system is complete garbage. Crazy item level jumps that feel meaningless anyway cause everything resets so fast with every new raid. You can't really get BiS gear anymore and if you get close to getting it, it's almost reset time anyway.

  7. #167
    Yes, thats why we have 10 threads a day about how ppl with 350 ilevel cant get accepted in +3 motherlode...

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by klaps_05 View Post
    Yes, thats why we have 10 threads a day about how ppl with 350 ilevel cant get accepted in +3 motherlode...
    So true.. ppl who start threads like that are frustrated from being declined in m+ low or high ones.

  9. #169
    Legendary! The One Percent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holofernes View Post
    how did u get high mythic + azerite? afaik it only has a small chance to be in the weekly chest? I have never seen a single azerite piece drop outside of raids or normal mythic instances.
    The weekly chest sometimes has azerite pieces (imo it should always have azerite armor since you can't get them from the end of dungeon chests)
    You're getting exactly what you deserve.

  10. #170
    Pandaren Monk Tart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Gear mattered in vanilla but it wasn't a huge power difference. In BFA, gear doesn't matter and that is frankly sad.
    Massively, a green drop from a mob or a battered chest was great!!! Now its just vendored.....

  11. #171
    Ah yes, go do mythic fetid with 350 or even 360 gear across the raid and tell me gear doesn't matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarim View Post
    It's a strange and illogical world where not wanting your 10 year old daughter looking at female-identifying pre-op penises at the YMCA could feasibly be considered transphobic.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Mafic View Post
    Gear mattered in vanilla but it wasn't a huge power difference. In BFA, gear doesn't matter and that is frankly sad.
    ROFLMAO

    Ya ok

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Wrong for 1st and True for 2nd. Have to quote friend since messages already been made (this will be faster for me), but were deleted with whole those threads (stupid people cried about they don't want "gear matters" in PvP, done about 2 month ago, from eu forum):
    Quote №1.

    Quote №2.

    Don't pay special attention to "playful style" of communication, he always behaves this way

    In short, according to 1st quote, the point is that gear = characteristics are important for separation content areas, for individual RPG customization and as indicator of character's progress in this content (since “content” is available from the beginning for PvP, rating talks more about your skill, but gear - about your progress; for PVE (because of LFR/M+(-vicious opinion) multi-level difficulty, mentioned balance/progress system's+ violation/overlap) these concepts are somewhat blurred). And 2nd talking about devs don't like characteristics and they unnoticeably trying to remove/replace them (look at AA which don't have any).

    ps. Choose which of messages you understand more.
    For the first part (customization), you can allow people to customize and make gear irrelevant : give multiple gears of different secondary stats, all same item level. Customization =/ Gear Matters.

    For the second part (time investment), it is area of more subjectivity, but one can design pvp without having to make people be roflstomped by uber geared players until they are geared up - cosmetic awards or just simple fun to name some. In fact most of the most popular pvp games out there have no gear disparities between players. Pvp is not pve where gear progression is everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGamer030 View Post
    I do not need to be constructive in this thread, nor provide an argument. There is nothing here to actually debate. Your reasoning is flawed and thusly you have no argument.
    ↑ Epitome of Internet Logic

  14. #174
    Brewmaster Alkizon's Avatar
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    PrairieChicken
    For the first part (customization), you can allow people to customize and make gear irrelevant : give multiple gears of different secondary stats, all same item level. Customization =/ Gear Matters.

    For the second part (time investment), it is area of more subjectivity, but one can design pvp without having to make people be roflstomped by uber geared players until they are geared up - cosmetic awards or just simple fun to name some. In fact most of the most popular pvp games out there have no gear disparities between players. Pvp is not pve where gear progression is everything.
    1st your paragraph is incomprehensible, perhaps because you didn't understand the point.
    Chosen characteristics are your role customization mechanism and gear is its main keeper, so customization = gear matters.
    No matter how many items of this level exist with different characteristics, the main thing is that you have a controlled choice. Therefore, the more items at your disposal, the more opportunities you have for customization, but since gear=customization, than it remains important.
    - He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible, gear is your role not you class, remember DKs from WotLK, that's why guardian/feral fills no problem in been at the same talent branch, but they changed/broke it). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And there is no such stupid stuff like many random items on 1 id = scaling to ilvl/lvl/spec (scaling/RNG=automatic=not your choice≈no choice for current system); characteristics are fixed on this particular item (you can disturb them a little with reforging and that's all, than put more effort with professions and here you go - you have all control over your customization):
    You have control over choose which item you need, know where and how get it and how you will custom it.
    - Hail the player, f*ck devs' dictatorship
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    They really try, but they try in wrong way, both within framework of current game model and old one. That is, gear really should be mainly responsible for role, but also not for performance (we discussed this separately, even somewhat violently), at the same time it has certain limitations in sphere of control (in fact, same as "reputations" part, they are on the same hierarchy level) if it wants to be in "old way". Only now, within framework of "current way", this role is played by specs (that is, third "cut off" part (abilities and passive effects imposed by devs as being available mainly only to this spec) of class and its talents (the same story, only on optional basis))... and covenants are trying to wedge themselves into this system for "both ways" as a third leg, which naturally interferes with its functioning, causing many conflicts. In fact, this is same set of "progress" systems that was introduced in Legion. Yes, they renamed them, kind of slightly redistributed, but this is same (the lowest level in hierarchy tries to take place of "leading" to which, by definition, it has neither rights nor aptitude) misplaced rubbish.

    So, within framework of current system, borrowed powers perform function of specs, and old control through characteristics (= gear) is bring down to "appendix organ" functioning and significance. Conclusion: Ion is lying, if not to himself, then at least to players.

    The only benefit from all this, as has already been said many times, is that devs can simply forget about adequate organization of content+progress (story+gear = open-world<dungeons<raids), organization of integral system of characteristics (which long interfered them, like "balls" for bad dancer) and functionality of classes, additional cherry is to control process of their own indulgences and depriving players of them at "right time".
    2nd your part: one can, but not for this game, it has (had) a working control mechanism formed, and such actions simply violate/break it. You can't change it, this is how stuff works.
    PrairieChicken
    So you are saying that Haste/Crit gear with 350ilv gives "customization" compared to a same gear with 370ilv?
    Don't forget reforging, professions and other stuff. Why're you still talking about ilvl? Ilvl is expansion progress - next raid, next ilvl, more characteristics, more requirements for other characteristics, such as avoidance, dps with an eye on constant control over required amount of hit/expertise/mastery/mana restoration rate (which gives certain fines and restrictions on growth of your immediate "force") etc. Ilvl isn't important, both equally are customization, blank/starting point for your customization. I know that they removed these characteristics, but it was very stupid. You can read more here.

    ps. We discussed possibility of full control over item's characteristics (I also once made such mistake), and I was convinced that only item's skin would remain, but transmogrification is already responsible for this, which means that such customization is simply redundant/not necessary and violates gear as one of stages in your ultimate goal. Maybe this is what you meant in your first paragraph?

    Also from here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    Stanelis
    The issue is not people getting upgrades, it s the fact that it ruins progression, especially raid's one (where in wow you traditionally used to get ilvl X for a tier of content and if you wanted better ilvl you needed to move to higher tier of content). And it leads to the ilvl creep requirement in order to join PUGS.

    Also, no, it doesn't feel good getting mythic raid ilvl gear from the same LFR raid (it happened to me).
    Yeap. And now add to this personal loot scaling (lvl/ilvl/specialization) and you no longer need to make biger raids/dungeons anymore because people can get "necessary custom items" all even from single places (boss/chest), and finally RNG will further extend your inaction in exchange for players' "Sisyphus' work". Do you see now what's standing behind it all?
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2022-10-27 at 06:17 AM.
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  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    1st your paragraph is incomprehensible, perhaps because you didn't understand the point. He assumes that everyone chooses a piece of clothing depending on general characteristics he/she prefers for the own role (it could be even rogue tank/support, everything possible). They aren't tied to character general progression (= class; unlike silly AA), they are tied to progress in expansion (= gear). And ther is no such stuped stuff like many items on 1 id, scaling to ilvl/lvl/class, characteristics are fixed on this particular item.

    2nd your part: one can, but not for this game, it has (had) a working control mechanism formed, and such actions simply violate/break it.
    So you are saying that Haste/Crit gear with 350ilv gives "customization" compared to a same gear with 370ilv?
    Quote Originally Posted by RedGamer030 View Post
    I do not need to be constructive in this thread, nor provide an argument. There is nothing here to actually debate. Your reasoning is flawed and thusly you have no argument.
    ↑ Epitome of Internet Logic

  16. #176
    Just a suggestion, but have you tried going back to Broken Isles and questing/playing there..quite alot of that "power" feel there atm...

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizson View Post
    Both PvE part and PvP part is heavily destroyed. Long are the times when you actually felt like you built up a character, where every loot mattered and you actually started to feel strong.
    PvP is dead, and it has been long dead. Blizzard tried to make WoW PvP into an esport game, which they horribly failed at (like any other of their IPs that they wanted to be a big esport game) and balance everything out and they literally ruined it. How come the gear doesn't matter anymore, yet the PvP is just not fun at all. Gear should matter in a fucking MMO, it should give you power, but they both removed PvE advantage doing WQ anymore barely gives you JUST a small advantage, everyone gets free loot, everyone is entitled for everything in this game. Keep grinding your gear on a carrot, while you finally reach your BIS the next update is already out and you literally achieved nothing but grinded like a good NPC you are. . Stupid game design after stupid game design, everything scales, everything is free, so it seems like people unironically play this game for the awesome game mechanics wow has, but I'm not surprised this MMO is as deep now as a Facebook social MMO game, except the social part.
    Gear totally matters. I went back all excited to get legacy loot mode in WoD raids and was killed by mythic Butcher's auto kill mechanic when he was at like 55% health. Yesterday at just under 350 ilvl I killed him before I got the second debuff.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizson View Post
    You can get it from LFR, in fact I will be just as strong as you everywhere as you are except in Mythic settings.


    It was me and I quit, I told you guys the game is shit and became true. I had my laugh at the Reddit uprising threads though.

    FTFY* YOU don't have anything to discuss.
    I can understand quitting,

    I can understand quitting and continuing to use the forums, for lore reasons, seeing if they've fixed enough to entice you back etc.

    What I can't fathom is why you'd quit x amount of time ago and still be bitching about why the game is bad on a forum for that game? It's literally like being dumped after a long relationship, then shit talking about the dumper non stop because you aren't happy about being dumped.
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    Haters gonna hate

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