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  1. #61
    Unless they make MM significantly better than BM with simple number tuning, it won't see play.

    The biggest issues lie in the talents, for both specs. Most of BM's talents are literally dead picks, thus we have a build that works for ST and AoE. Meanwhile MM has really uninteresting talents(Hunter's mark and Serpent Sting come to mind immediately) and has to make a choice between ST and AoE.

    Simulations do not reflect the real issue, which is that when you need AoE damage for an encounter, you have to sacrifice ST damage. Encounters are usually a mix of ST and AoE, so BM always performs at its peak, while MM might only be good during AoE sections if AoE talents are chosen.

    Also Azerite traits play a role here. BM's best trait is best for AoE and ST, meanwhile MM again has to choose.

    On top of pure DPS numbers, BM has much better utility through Spirit Beast heal doing between 60-70k per use on a dying raid member.

  2. #62
    Herald of the Titans docterfreeze's Avatar
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    Everywhere you look at MM there's problems. I'd prefer a revert to WoD or wrath.

    Really liked MM's mastery in WoD. Made you think ahead. Also we had chim shot and kill shot back then. I miss those buttons.
    Last edited by docterfreeze; 2018-10-12 at 01:13 AM.

  3. #63
    Honestly,

    they *need* to increase the % chance of every single talent MM has.
    I tested how often I need to cast SS sometimes and I had bad RNG rolls so often in multiple M+ runs, it's hard to believe that Lethal Shot supposedly has a 25% chance to proc.

    AiS cast time has to be back to ~2s again too. Can't mention how often I had to cancel a 50% cast for a vulcano or trash-aoe effect. And trash in BFA has way more AoE and spells in general than Legion throughout all dungeons.

    Sure, if I just started casting it, I don't mind having to move. But seriously, which DD has to cancel a cast that's already 50% through and is paramount to how the spec deals damage in both ST and AoE.
    Last edited by KrayZee; 2018-10-12 at 05:15 AM.

  4. #64
    Make it melee.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZee View Post
    Honestly,

    they *need* to increase the % chance of every single talent MM has.
    I tested how often I need to cast SS sometimes and I had bad RNG rolls so often in multiple M+ runs, it's hard to believe that Lethal Shot supposedly has a 25% chance to proc.

    AiS cast time has to be back to ~2s again too. Can't mention how often I had to cancel a 50% cast for a vulcano or trash-aoe effect. And trash in BFA has way more AoE and spells in general than Legion throughout all dungeons.

    Sure, if I just started casting it, I don't mind having to move. But seriously, which DD has to cancel a cast that's already 50% through and is paramount to how the spec deals damage in both ST and AoE.
    I had a bad luck streak of 12 SS casts on pull without a LS proc on a boss once, and since it was on pull ( And we are using carefull Aim) my dps was gone for that try.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by vashe9 View Post
    They should do something with BM aoe too... Its almost impossible to be competitive in mm+ aoe when target are a little spread
    You can move as much as you want without losing any dps. You can't be the best at everything.

  7. #67
    So, my thoughts on the current state of MM. I've been playing MM as one of my main specs since Vanilla, the other being sub rogue. I've always been a fan of the core style of heavy hitting ranged combat with more survivability than a cloth caster.

    I really enjoyed MM during Legion. Although the constant dependence on having the vulnerable window felt somewhat restricting. Burst damage was not really bursty because it always required a couple of setup shots before you could really go ham. But the DPS output was in a good place. Movement was solid if you put some thought into it. I really liked getting the occasional aimed shot on the move. Even the windburst artifact ability was interesting. I loved using it as an opener in boss fights giving the melee a nice charging path. It also worked really well when we ran into raidwide knockback mechanics.

    In BfA I don't mind the removal of marked shot/vulnerable. It opens me up to target swapping and mixing up my shots without having to worry about losing out on a huge chuck of damage. My biggest issue is how slow our big hitter always seems to feel. The charge system being baseline is nice, but I am definitely missing the frequency of the procced instant aimed shots or the ability to reduce the cast time. So much of dungeon and raid content involves almost constant movement to avoid mechanics. It's hard to keep from falling back to either spamming arcane shot or overcapping focus with steady shot in those situations. A perfect example is MOTHER in Uldir. Every time the wind fires up I get gimped. And this only gets worse going from normal to heroic to mythic. Combine that with dodging the flame eruptions and the laser grid and I spend almost half the fight unable to use my central ability.

    Now I get the concept that this is part of class identity. Some specs are better on the move while others are better when stationary. And that would be fine if that were true. Just last Wednesday my guild killed Heroic Zul for the first time. The strat we used involved relatively little movement...at least for the first 2/3rds of the fight. We simply locked down the hexers with long CC and cleaved the other adds in the middle on top of Zul. The only movement involved running the debuff out of the group and soaking the purple puddles.

    It took us about 8-10 pulls to win the fight. The first 3 or 4 pulls I played as MM. I never got the debuff and other people were assigned to the soaks. So I was left standing in one spot just drilling the crap out of Zul and cleaving the adds. I was one of four hunters in the raid. The rest of them all played BM. For those first pulls I was consistently at least 2k DPS lower than any of them. For the last couple of pulls I switched to BM. My DPS instantly jumped between 2.5k and 3k.

    Just for context, the MM azurite gear I was wearing was two 370 pieces with Steady Aim and Heed the Call. My 3rd piece had the Laser Matrix with four stacks of Reorigination Array. For BM I swapped to two pieces of 355 gear with Haze of Rage and Heed the Call. I didn't suddenly get 2.5k better at the game. But BM still outperforms MM even in the type of situations where standing still and just working the rotation should put MM up near the top.

    My ideal fixes would involve adding some sort of stationary buff. If I stand still for three seconds I gain +25% damage or so. I would also like to see more ways to increase the versatility of aimed shot. Kick up the proc chance for Lock & Load. Bring back a proc that allows us to fire aimed shot on the move. I'd even like to see Double Tap reworked into a short term effect allowing us to fire aimed shot on the move, maybe a 15 second window or something.

    In short, either make us the kings of standing still damage or give us more utility to do decent damage on the move. We can't simply be a gimped version of BM.

  8. #68
    well i'd buff arcane shot and remove the damage buff aimed shot provides to it

    too much damage is tied to aimed shot already and casting your big hitter is reward enough, having it buff other skills is bad design imo

  9. #69

  10. #70
    Explosive shot should be more aching of the one in Surv. Shoot it on a target and it aoes with each tick. No charges on aimed shot. Chimera shot back. I don't know. I liked the cata/mop version of hunter. Something like that. The Legion MM was better than the current imho. Even though everyone hates vulnerable, I found it a lot more engaging than the current spec which just feels kinda bland and boring.

    Disclaimer: Cata and MoP hunter might've super different from each other. I don't remember. One of those was good anyway. It was quick and fun and engaging. Also the most fun I had with hunter in pvp.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Sabinn View Post
    I had a bad luck streak of 12 SS casts on pull without a LS proc on a boss once, and since it was on pull ( And we are using carefull Aim) my dps was gone for that try.
    that is actually pretty common, which is why I mentioned that it's hard to believe that it has a 25% chance

    I always start counting after 4-5 casts because it's pissing me off and 10-14 casts is so outraging horrible that they should definitely remove the RNG all together and work with a stack system, basically. "every 4th SS will guarantee the next AiS to crit"

    I'm not a fan of the % chance for more damage during 20<>80Hp either
    Last edited by KrayZee; 2018-10-13 at 11:29 AM.

  12. #72
    Patch 8.1 soon arrives and on PTR nothing changed with MM Hunter at all. Seems like Blizzard simply ignores the fact MM rework completely failed in 8.0 and put their heads in the sand.

  13. #73
    High Overlord Cmx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrite13 View Post
    My ideal fixes would involve adding some sort of stationary buff. If I stand still for three seconds I gain +25% damage or so. I would also like to see more ways to increase the versatility of aimed shot. Kick up the proc chance for Lock & Load. Bring back a proc that allows us to fire aimed shot on the move. I'd even like to see Double Tap reworked into a short term effect allowing us to fire aimed shot on the move, maybe a 15 second window or something.
    Stationary buff? double tap reworked to shot instant AS? please god no some ideas are terrible and even worst then actual state of MM.

    Only few in this thread make sense to me, and it has potential to make mm fun again.

  14. #74
    biggest problem with MM rn is that with 2x or 3x steady aim which is the best trait, the rotation is literally steady shot x5 -> aimed shot, use up arcane shot procs, repeat. murder of crows every minute. that is it, and that is not an exaggeration. you don't manage focus, youd on't manage aimed shot stacks, you literally just ignore everything about the spec and just steady shot/aimed shot

    it is very very boring

  15. #75
    -Lower cast time to 2s for AiS and remove charges
    -Trick Shots on 2+ targets
    -Remove the RNG talents. I'd rather have old Careful Aim back as a passive with the spec that was just 100-80% and then Kill Shot back, as a talent if need be.
    -I would like some sort of dot talent. Change Serpent Sting to some kind of shadow dot after you MS or AiS. Could increase AiS damage by a small amount so you want to use it on cleave and ST. Could be fun to have a little different flavor vs Survival.
    -Change ES to be targeted instead of the buggy version we have now
    -Have Lone Wolf work like warlock sacrifice where you get the passive and active ability of whatever pet you just dismissed
    -Tranq shot

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