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  1. #141
    If Baine wins a Makgora against Sylvanas I’ll unsubscribe lmao

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Jaina can't really "betray" the Horde as she was never part of it, nor really had any loyalty to it (or expected of her). It was a bad diplomatic move to allow Theramore to become the military hub of the Alliance's push into central Kalimdor, but it is not as if the Alliance had much of a choice as they could either use the infrastructure that existed or built their own - an exceedingly unlikely and most self-defeating choice on their part.

    My example of "fixing" Baine fit in with the OP's rubric of making him more partisan and more active in the faction war *without* stuffing him into the proverbial fridge. Personally speaking, I don't think there's an issue with Baine despite my disagreement with his passivity or his willingness to prioritize peace over the safety of the Horde at this point. I think most people don't really understand Baine or where he's coming from. Baine's lack of loyalty to the Horde is the legacy of Garrosh's mismanagement of the Horde and the events that saw Baine acquire the leadership of the Mulgore Tauren - it's an unaddressed schism that will probably soon have to be addressed one way or the other.
    Making a pact of no agression to the horde with Thrall and breaking it, even if Thrall was no longer the warchief at the time doesnt diminish that she broke it and per se betrayed the Horde by doing it.

  3. #143
    Mechagnome Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    How to fix Baine?

    Have Nathanos go BM and tame him, problem solved. I'm fairly sure most of the player base won't actually notice the transition. -Although given the amount of Nathanos gets, they might be suspicious when the old bull gets more screen time.

  4. #144
    Have him be possesed by Cairne's spirit, completely blocking out all of Baine's personality. Forever.

    Yeah, it's cheap, but he doesn't deserve more than that anyway.

  5. #145
    While I consider Baine to be a rather bland character, I don't feel he needs to be turned into yet another grimdark 'Rarrr war smash revenge' character. You'd think 3 or 4 leader of that category per Faction would be enough for people. He would gain a lot from following through with what he stands for, though, instead of going "I don't think we should do that" - "Yes we should" - "oh ok, fine then.".

    All that aside, reading the almost borderline snuff porn fantasies some people here seem to have about killing him off really worries me about a certain percentage of the player base. Some people really ought to take a deep breath and realize this is just a fictional character in a computer game.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by RangerDaz View Post
    I thought all cool and edgy people in BfA liked to bash Sylvanas. It seems that the new edgy trend now is to bash Saurfang and Baine instead.


    i'll will give my contribution for this thread tough. I feel Baine and Saurfang will rejoin and stand up to Sylvanas and say this is not going well at all, and tough decisions need to be made. Maybe at that time Blizzard will finally figure out what to say in relation to the explaination of the reason that made Sylvanas warchief, and which character really wanted her to be warchief.
    both Saurfang and Baine right now are the biggest traitors to the horde since the first cannot follow his own plan and always wanting to try his life away and the other for having direct communications with the enemy leader and giving information about the horde movements that could result in the dead of many horde soldiers even his own people among them until sylvannas call it out.

  7. #147
    Mechagnome Smallfruitbat's Avatar
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    TBH, Blizzard really struggle with anything that goes beyond the Humans vs Orcs war -with the odd forsaken thrown in. I think I'd rather they ignore the racial leaders than the way they are dealing with them at present.

  8. #148
    Herald of the Titans Xisa's Avatar
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    Take a nice, big log.
    Spin it around.
    Crush Sylvanas's fucking head with it.

    I'd be happy with that development.
    I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes
    Or should I?

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by GetCrunk View Post
    Do you know anything about war or recruiting allies?
    Yes, I know that only madmen fight to the last man, but hey, it's not like Blizz will portray this realistically in the first place. They have the Lich Queen worshiper himself tell her they're about to lose, when he can be expected to tell her that only if the situation is truly dire for the Horde.

    Baine is the only sane person in the room, realizing if they continue or worse escalate it, they will be wiped out. Shriek "weak" all you like, all it does is confirm you aren't interested in a believable story. I know that the Horde ethos is chest-thumping BS about Victory or Death (that they have yet to follow), but don't worry, the Horde will wriggle out of having to live up to those words yet again.

    Imo maybe some leaders but not Baine he betray The Horde when he alerted Jaina about Garrosh and he was caught by Sylvanas having a secret communication with Anduin.
    Garrosh and the Horde told him to fuck off when the Grimtotems overthrew Thunder Bluff. Jaina and the Alliance helped him. He repaid his debt by warning her to get the civilians out. The faction that raves about honor sure seems to have no concept of it.

    And me as Horde player to be force to negotiate with Alliance. After the SoO fiasco where is stated that The Horde exist only because Alliance let it be. To make The Horde a wimp again NO!
    If there was a snowball's chance in Hell that Blizz would actually let either side lose and be wiped out, rather than business as usual, I'd applaud this suicidal urge many Hordies seem to have.

    then and only then Baine can start to negotiate.
    So negotiations can only begin when the Horde wins. In other words, when they can dictate terms to a defeated enemy. Is it REALLY so hard to understand why Baine doesn't want to be completely defeated and have terms dictated to him? Who exactly doesn't understand war (besides Blizzard, of course)?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  10. #150
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundering View Post
    This is bs Theramore was just a harbour city that let the alliance adventures land and use it. The Alliance troops where let to land and move awey from there due to the horde aggression was threatening the city, and that aggression was the thing that destroyed it. It was and always been the horde that betrayed Jaina.
    No, the Horde didn't betray Jaina more than Jaina betrayed the Horde. She may have been a pacifist but still allowed her city and her troops to be used for war and said troops actively participated in extremely aggressive actions throughout Kalimdor, included Durotar itself. Sure, the mana bomb may have been an overkill but Theramore was a martial city and an attack against it wasn't only warranted but pretty much expected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  11. #151
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
    Take a nice, big log.
    Spin it around.
    Crush Sylvanas's fucking head with it.

    I'd be happy with that development.
    You forgot 4th (and most important) step.

    Call anduin "My king".

  12. #152
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cucultlan View Post
    Making a pact of no agression to the horde with Thrall and breaking it, even if Thrall was no longer the warchief at the time doesnt diminish that she broke it and per se betrayed the Horde by doing it.
    Thrall was succeeded by a Warchief with a known animus for the Alliance and a pronounced pro-war bent - Jaina or the Alliance holding to the pact of non-aggression made with the far more moderate Thrall would've been disastrous for them. I agree that breaking the pact is a technical betrayal, but Garrosh's stated intent broke the pact in spirit well before the Alliance military was mobilized in central Kalimdor.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Thrall was succeeded by a Warchief with a known animus for the Alliance and a pronounced pro-war bent - Jaina or the Alliance holding to the pact of non-aggression made with the far more moderate Thrall would've been disastrous for them. I agree that breaking the pact is a technical betrayal, but Garrosh's stated intent broke the pact in spirit well before the Alliance military was mobilized in central Kalimdor.
    Don't you know that the Horde is never in the wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    I'll buy an Anduin shirt if Delaryn doesn't end up betraying Sylvanas by the end of the expansion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  14. #154
    The Unstoppable Force Arrashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Thrall was succeeded by a Warchief with a known animus for the Alliance and a pronounced pro-war bent - Jaina or the Alliance holding to the pact of non-aggression made with the far more moderate Thrall would've been disastrous for them. I agree that breaking the pact is a technical betrayal, but Garrosh's stated intent broke the pact in spirit well before the Alliance military was mobilized in central Kalimdor.
    Which still doesn't matter given how hard did jaina pretended to be "neutral" (while supporting one side of conflict).

  15. #155
    By letting Magatha Grimtotem turn Baine into pair of leather boots and hamburger meat and taking his place as a leader of Cows. There is no saving poorly written character without bloodshed.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Thrall was succeeded by a Warchief with a known animus for the Alliance and a pronounced pro-war bent - Jaina or the Alliance holding to the pact of non-aggression made with the far more moderate Thrall would've been disastrous for them. I agree that breaking the pact is a technical betrayal, but Garrosh's stated intent broke the pact in spirit well before the Alliance military was mobilized in central Kalimdor.
    Except Garrosh himself was reacting to Alliance hostile behaviour over a false flag on a completely different front. Jaina neverheless enabled an attack on primarily tauren territories with troops, supplies and logistics.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

  17. #157
    Pit Lord Maljinwo's Avatar
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    Baine would need to be shaken to the core to do something.
    His beliefs would've to be entirelly shattered for him to change his personality.

    Whatever happens, Baine should stop asking for peace. No time for asking.
    If he wants peace, then fucking fight for it.

    Someone is causing trouble? Don't send a letter asking him to stop. Beat the crap out of him, enforce his will on whoever his enemy is.
    Since Tauren are noble creatures, I don't think he needs to outright kill said enemy, but simply marching through and showing what will happen if they break peace again might work.


    He would still be a pacifist, but not a submissive moron with no initiative.
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  18. #158
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Don't you know that the Horde is never in the wrong?
    Right and wrong seldom figure into political entanglements and disagreements. Neither does objectivity in the vast majority of cases.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    Which still doesn't matter given how hard did jaina pretended to be "neutral" (while supporting one side of conflict).
    Jaina aspired to neutral diplomacy, but no ruler rules alone - Jaina had keys to satisfy and those above her in power whose orders she had to accede to. Not to say she didn't make her own fair share of mistakes, but pre-Theramore Jaina was perhaps the best diplomat to the Horde that the Alliance could ask for.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

  19. #159
    Herald of the Titans Alex86el's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wildberry View Post
    He literally betrayed the Horde. No amount of "but we need TWO SIDES!!"-arguments are going to change that fact.
    if somebody betrayed, that's sylvanas.
    she betrayed many things the Horde stands for, or at least, says it stands for.

    when you are given an unconstitutional order by the prime minister, you dont follow it,
    you take the prime minister down for not upholding the constitution.

    though, to be fair, i doubt the Orcs have any sort of written laws anywhere.
    except for "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."

  20. #160
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Except Garrosh himself was reacting to Alliance hostile behaviour over a false flag on a completely different front. Jaina neverheless enabled an attack on primarily tauren territories with troops, supplies and logistics.
    Garrosh's opposition to the Alliance existed well before the Wrathgate crisis occurred (e.g. his conversation and posturing with Saurfang in the Borean Tundra). Jaina's role in General Hawthorne's campaign in the Southern Barrens is questionable at best, as well; he is killed before any in the Alliance leadership can recall or question him formally about what occurred in Taurajo. The origin of the conflict is also hotly contested - it is difficult to ascertain if Garrosh's desire to fortify the Barrens as solidly Horde territory by attacking Alliance interests in the region, or if the Alliance took advantage of the Cataclysm to reinforce and redouble their interests and so drew the ire of the Horde.
    "The finest line of poetry ever uttered in the history of this whole damn country was said by Canada Bill Jones in 1853, in Baton Rouge, while he was being robbed blind in a crooked game of Faro. George Devol, who was, like Canada Bill, not a man who was averse to fleecing the odd sucker, drew Bill aside and asked him if he couldn't see that the game was crooked. And Canada Bill sighed, and shrugged his shoulders, and said, 'I know. But it's the only game in town.' And he went back to the game." -- Neil Gaiman, "American Gods"

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