Raider.io and Curve are ruining the game, wake up people.

[Kill Broccoli]

For a game that is supposedly a MMO, people playing together. People are creating tools to segregate themselves into smaller groups.

It's always been like this since day 2. It's within the game itself.
People hardly think at this but guilds are a way to group together only with people you want to play with by skill, time invested, or pure friendship. They're just less brutal than a simple addon because they require interaction before producing a result.
There always have been guilds made by pro's only, guilds of friends only or very very casual, and guilds in the middle who still have lots of requirements to get you in which are not much different that linking curve or have a good ilvl. And there always will be.

Gearscore, Raider.io, Curve etc are just a consequence of how grindy the game has become. You now have endless activity to do almost daily or weekly to be competitive, investing lots of time (compared to the past where with 2/3 nights a week for a short time you were done). Those addons/achievements are there to quickly fill up when your schedule does not match the ones of your guild/circle of friends.
If you have complaints against those you're either trying to play at an higher level than you should, or without investing enough time for the reward you want.
Otherwise, even if those system aren't perfect and needs fixes, you'll be fine.

[dragnipur]

I’m already putting in enough effort by making the group, finding tanks, finding healers, making optimal routes, doing optimal group composition for the current affixes. Why should it also be my responsibility to investigate the background of every single applicant? Am I not allowed to have some kind of filter? And what effort are the applying applicant making? They can not even make their own groups to gain important experience. I know that if a player only has completed 5 +10 dungeons then he/she cannot be a good player. It requires a lot of experience to learn all of the trash mechanics of all the dungeons and before players have that experience they should use their own keys and making their own groups instead of leeching of others.

I think i fell in love.Awesome response. +1

[Kaver]

For a game that is supposely a MMO, people playing together. People are creating tools to segregate themselves into smaller groups.

I find it rather hypocritical for the community as whole where people are complaining about the state of community etc and yet embrace and promote the use of add on that segregate and screen out people they do not want to associate with.

That is my view anyway.

It’s natural to play with people of your same level. I just want people who put effort and have experience. And if you don’t have experience it’s mainly because you don’t put in any effort. Otherwise you can use your own key to gain experience.

Also, WOW is not about community anymore. M+ is about gameplay and not making friends. If you do make friends then it’s great but it’s not the main goal at all. Most of the bad players that you boost just leave after the dungeon and you never see them again. So what is the point?

[Alkizon]

I’m already putting in enough effort by making the group, finding tanks, finding healers, making optimal routes, doing optimal group composition for the current affixes. Why should it also be my responsibility to investigate the background of every single applicant? Am I not allowed to have some kind of filter? And what effort are the applying applicant making? They can not even make their own groups to gain important experience. I know that if a player only has completed 5 +10 dungeons then he/she cannot be a good player. It requires a lot of experience to learn all of the trash mechanics of all the dungeons and before players have that experience they should use their own keys and making their own groups instead of leeching of others.

So you didn't understand root of the problem under discussion. And, even more, didn't make any positive conclusions for yourself from what being written (I'm not even sure that you did read stuff).

The person I talked to there was able to, so it's understanduble enough, but you didn't... Actually, limitations of your perception and understanding are probably not my problems, are they? By the way, that "random" answer to rhetorical question... That's funny. But, alright, not my business.

I think i fell in love.Awesome response. +1

You have something brown on your nose

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Bads will always find a way to screen for a carry and goods will always find a way to run with those they want. It is just how it is. End of the day these things are just tools and when used for what they are suppose to then it's ok. Hammer drives nails? Cool. Hammer murders by being barried in a skull? Bad. End of the day it is the user to blame and not the tool.

[Adrianoz]

I remember the WOTLK days and it was horrible, it could take anywhere from 0,5-2 hours to put together a raid by spamming trade chat while afking in Orgrimmar, and the group would fall apart after the Grim Toll boss.

It was fun at that time, cause I was still in school and life consisted of nolifing games. If I had to put up with that shit today, I would never even bother.

Reality is, if LFR, LFG and all the pugging tools put into this and other games were unpopular and unprofitable, they would have been removed, but apart from a vocal minority on sites like this, it's immensely popular and helps make content more accessible, thus keeping people playing longer and spending more money.

All of this will prove to be true after Classic has launched, a few months in people will be bored to death and it will die down and people will complain about what a huge pain in the ass it is to do group content, just look at Destiny 2 and what a mountain people have to climb to just group up for any content at all. I don't really get the whole play with your friends; all my friends are gamers and we pretty much never play together because we all work different schedules and types of games (usually).

[Kaver]

So you didn't understand root of the problem under discussion. And, even more, didn't make any positive conclusions for yourself from what been written (I'm not even sure that you did read stuff).

The person I talked to there was able to, so it's understanduble enough, but you didn't... Actually, limitations of your perception and understanding are probably not my problems, are they? By the way, that "random" answer to rhetorical question... That's funny. But, alright, not my business.

Now you’re just insulting me instead of commenting on my answer. What’s the point of that...

You asked me a question and I answered it. I don’t believe it’s my responsibility to ask every applicant personally why they should be invited. I want people to take more responsibility for their own “wow life” and put in more effort instead of just blaming other people. We all have plenty of options.

I think I’m going to make a new thread called “Reasons for not making your own group?”. I’m genuinely curious of why people want to be dependable of others instead of creating their own happiness.

[Alkizon]

I remember the WOTLK days and it was horrible, it could take anywhere from 0,5-2 hours to put together a raid by spamming trade chat while afking in Orgrimmar, and the group would fall apart after the Grim Toll boss.

It was fun at that time, cause I was still in school and life consisted of nolifing games. If I had to put up with that shit today, I would never even bother.

Reality is, if LFR, LFG and all the pugging tools put into this and other games were unpopular and unprofitable, they would have been removed, but apart from a vocal minority on sites like this, it's immensely popular and helps make content more accessible, thus keeping people playing longer and spending more money.

All of this will prove to be true after Classic has launched, a few months in people will be bored to death and it will die down and people will complain about what a huge pain in the ass it is to do group content, just look at Destiny 2 and what a mountain people have to climb to just group up for any content at all. I don't really get the whole play with your friends; all my friends are gamers and we pretty much never play together because we all work different schedules and types of games (usually).

omg it's not about being popular/unpopular. How it all goes so tightly...

Exactly such (in current way) kind of tools "faster faster" for players, "cheaper cheaper" for developers and "easier easier" for both, BUT! this isn't about "righter righter and healthier healthier" for game's social system and human experience and learning. Also it doesn't mean that same tool can't be realized in another way, healthy one, but it have to return to correct system at first for this.

Now you’re just insulting me instead of commenting on my answer. What’s the point of that...

You asked me a question and I answered it. I don’t believe it’s my responsibility to ask every applicant personally why they should be invited. I want people to take more responsibility for their own “wow life” and put in more effort instead of just blaming other people. We all have plenty of options.

I think I’m going to make a new thread called “Reasons for not making your own group?”. I’m genuinely curious of why people want to be dependable of others instead of creating their own happiness.

Pressure without awareness of cause causes confrontation and bitterness (you feel it yourself now, don't you?), but not motivation to learn/understand, just desire to survive at any cost, even if being bad/rude. Motivation stems from necessity and interest. No one will get better. No one will benefit from current system. So problem is exactly in it, in non-working social system created by the company (although it's more correct to say "destroyed"), and any automation doesn’t solve it, but only exacerbates symptoms in these conditions (there is no communication, which means clarifications, which means understanding and learning, which means experience, and therefore there is no emotional connection between people exept generated by themselves (see next sentence), and how can this be "social" in general?). Evil begets evil: you behave wrong with others, they behave same with you and both expect similar actions not even only from each other, but everyone else and you get current situation as a result... and who is to blame for this? The fact that you don't want/can't “read-out" it from my text is only reason we're continue talking now.

Question was quite rhetorical, because answer to it lies further in same message, but you limited yourself to reading one sentence.

As for the "grouping" - current system doesn't motivate and doesn't teach to do this, so is bad. It makes people think that it’s true because it’s "faster and easier", but it's already indicated in first message's part.

ps. This is not the first time when I touch this, couple of example links to read +/+ (+/+/+)+ last is already familiar to you.

--- Edit ---
By the way, you already tried to answer this question back then... and much more tactful. War mood today?

[Sansnom]

This is just so much bs mate, like everything in the whole wide world ppl HAVE to segregate themselves to enjoy what they are doing. You reckon Chelsea football club would love to have a "Donald" as their goalie, trying to win matches but they cant because the goalie should really be playing in 5 divisions lower? I bet both the A team and the Donalds would be happier if both groups are part of other people the same skill. Unless Donald is a damn freeloader and want to get carried.

I am not criticising the segregation or Chelsea football goalie. I am just finding hypocrisy surrounding the game.

Some of the best experience I have had in the game are with "Shitty players". They are bad. They know it. They try hard and they are willingly to work with others. Pick themselves and try again. Shitty players they may be but they can be great people.

Some of the worst experience I have had in the game are with very good players but shitty people. They are quick to criticise others on every minor details. Missed an interrupted. Stayed in bad zones a bit too long. DPS lower than what they can do. No thanks. I rather wipe several times with shitty players but pleasant people rather than a quick run with good players but shitty people that just complain about how bad the others are constantly.

[Dawon]

I am not criticising the segregation or Chelsea football goalie. I am just finding hypocrisy surrounding the game.

Some of the best experience I have had in the game are with "Shitty players". They are bad. They know it. They try hard and they are willingly to work with others. Pick themselves and try again. Shitty players they may be but they can be great people.

Some of the worst experience I have had in the game are with very good players but shitty people. They are quick to criticise others on every minor details. Missed an interrupted. Stayed in bad zones a bit too long. DPS lower than what they can do. No thanks. I rather wipe several times with shitty players but pleasant people rather than a quick run with good players but shitty people that just complain about how bad the others are constantly.

Thing is, you would probably not be happy after your 7th key run in a row with people that your outdps by 3 times or keep dying to same fire over and over again. Neither is it fun with the elitist asshats that split after a trashwipe, both groups are crappy in it's own way.

I have no problem helping people here and there but I dont wanna struggle every week to get a decent key done or wipe 67 times on Mother as same 5 ppl take the beam in the head.

I have no idea why you auto assume good player = shitty person and shitty player = nice person... Yeah ofcoz noone wanna play with assholes. There are just as many assholes that are "shitty" players as good players... so you are probably looking at wiping several times with shitty player that also are assholes. :P

[Puremallace]

LFR and LFD were a response to Gear score. So everyone here that supports Raider.IO and uses it as a way to exclude people you know can clear the content but not at the super fast pace you want are going to bring another system to this game that you will hate.

This MMO after Gear score has never been the same.

[Trend]

Pressure without awareness of cause causes confrontation and bitterness (you feel it yourself now, don't you?), but not motivation to learn/understand, just desire to survive at any cost, even if being bad/rude. Motivation stems from necessity and interest. No one will get better. No one will benefit from current system. So problem is exactly in it, in non-working social system created by the company (although it's more correct to say "destroyed"), and any automation doesn’t solve it, but only exacerbates symptoms in these conditions (there is no communication, which means clarifications, which means understanding and learning, which means experience, and therefore there is no emotional connection between people exept generated by themselves (see next sentence), and how can this be "social" in general?). Evil begets evil: you behave wrong with others, they behave same with you and both expect similar actions not even only from each other, but everyone else and you get current situation as a result... and who is to blame for this? The fact that you don't want/can't “read-out" it from my text is only reason we're continue talking now.

Question was quite rhetorical, because answer to it lies further in same message, but you limited yourself to reading one sentence.

As for the "grouping" - current system doesn't motivate and doesn't teach to do this, so is bad. It makes people think that it’s true because it’s "faster and easier", but it's already indicated in first message's part.

ps. This is not the first time when I touch this, couple of example links to read +/+ (+/+/+)+ last is already familiar to you.

--- Edit ---
By the way, you already tried to answer this question back then... and much more tactful. War mood today?

This is the first time I've seen someone apply Marxist theory to try to convince people they're playing the game the wrong way. Bravo I guess?

The problem I see with your argument (and Marxism in general) is that there is no objective truth, just an opinion that people should not be selfish and that systems should (and could) be made which would force people to stop being selfish. I do not expect in my lifetime the obvious failures of Marxism and lesser forms of socialism will be finally abandoned by the overly 'academic' (using that term more in a sense of seeming than of being) crowd but we can hope. And, of course, it is understandable that bottom feeders will never willingly let the theory go, given its significant advantages for the lazy and uninspired.

[Elias01]

LFR and LFD were a response to Gear score. So everyone here that supports Raider.IO and uses it as a way to exclude people you know can clear the content but not at the super fast pace you want are going to bring another system to this game that you will hate.

This MMO after Gear score has never been the same.

And what els would you have to recognize player eperience with dungeon? How i am supostu pick players for my group when i have no clue what experience they have with dungeon?

[Alkizon]

This is the first time I've seen someone apply Marxist theory to try to convince people they're playing the game the wrong way. Bravo I guess?

The problem I see with your argument (and Marxism in general) is that there is no objective truth, just an opinion that people should not be selfish and that systems should (and could) be made which would force people to stop being selfish. I do not expect in my lifetime the obvious failures of Marxism and lesser forms of socialism will be finally abandoned by the overly 'academic' (using that term more in a sense of seeming than of being) crowd but we can hope. And, of course, it is understandable that bottom feeders will never willingly let the theory go, given its significant advantages for the lazy and uninspired.

No, man, exactly Marxist theory (and this is essentially main game philosophy now, problem is that they are mistaken in nature of motivation, as well as theory itself) led game to such a pitiful result, and I have already spoken about this many times. I explained how it works easier, but you didn't read my links +/+ (see, you can properly motivate person, system can help understand that social and less selfish decision will be clearly more useful in it "There were deliberate design decisions that prevented players from being completely self-sufficient."(c), and therefore able to give more rewarding experience; but! problem is that you consider experience to be only positive, but experience, as I already said, doesn't have polarity, it’s just knowledge that person can apply in a given situation, it's just people tend to give it particular color depending on characteristics of their own/prevailing morality, and since player will be more experienced in humanistic acts, this is what will be his/her tendency to act in current situation ("more frequently", not rare), and this already has nothing to do with Marxism or some more complex matter) from here and that's why such delusion. Actually, current discussion has nothing to do with this theory in principle, since it's not so much social, as economic and in many ways not less utopian than all options that people tried to implement in Eastern countries.

All I want for them is to stop imposing their stupid decisions on others, but offer people to survive independently in the world according to its rules, and not through some silly mythical automation that has no theoretical basis in aisles of this universe. I understand that I formulated it a bit difficult, but meaning is approximately like that. But since formation of a more stable relationship requires certain conditions, it's therefore necessary to eliminate at least illogical/"negative" factors leading to unwanted/destructive "tendencies" (it's not necessary to build artificial, expensive and non-working walls, history says this, you need to work with people, understand their motivation, system should teach and form respect, but not try to exert pisical pressure/order them, which always causes resistance as first reaction, fear can effectively act only as a secondary reinforcer, not the main one, otherwise system gets into the standstill).

LOL you're actually serious too. Unfortunately you were born a century too late.

P.S. A lot of my professors grew up and were trained behind the Iron Curtain. I think my understanding of Marxism is just fine. But in any case, good luck convincing a video game company in the U.S. to apply already failed principals that conflict almost entirely with the world view upon which the U.S. exists.

P.S.S. Have you considered footnotes? I would definitely take someone more seriously if they provide footnotes.

Well, you didn't refute me (rather misunderstand, because I would tried to convince them on don't use "failed principals", since vice versa they using them; and it seemed to me that you think it's good thing to "train" selfish @$$holes, it's only not clear then why such general dissatisfaction with social component in game now, people should like it if it's so good, but I'm not sure that you meant exactly this, or maybe just were joking?), so I'm actually have nothing to lean on in understanding of where this conversation continuation - don't see point in what you said for absence of any your arguments (in other words: I have nothing to answer, because you said nothing, except for obvious stuff that weren't related to my point of view, and therefore redundant in this conversation). I also could attack “person” part, but I’m too lazy to do this and don't consider it polite, so let's end with this, since this not leading anywhere

[Puremallace]

And what els would you have to recognize player eperience with dungeon? How i am supostu pick players for my group when i have no clue what experience they have with dungeon?

I really do not care if you use it. My critique of this system like gear score was using it because you want 390 ilvl geared players to speed run a +4 or something. I saw it evolve in Wrath and it immediately made me hate the game to the point I cancelled my sub for 9 years.

[Trend]

No, man, exactly Marxist theory (and this is essentially main game philosophy now, problem is that they are mistaken in nature of motivation, as well as theory itself) led game to such a pitiful result, and I have already spoken about this many times. I explained how it works easier, but you didn't read my links +/+ (see, you can properly motivate person, system can help understand that social and less selfish decision will be clearly more useful in it, and therefore able to give more rewarding experience; but! problem is that you consider experience to be only positive, but experience, as I already said, doesn't have polarity, it’s just knowledge that person can apply in a given situation, it's just people tend to give it particular color depending on characteristics of their own/prevailing morality, and since he will be more experienced in humanistic acts, this is what will be his tendency to act in current situation, and this already has nothing to do with Marxism or some more complex matter) from here and that's why such delusion. Actually, current discussion has nothing to do with this theory in principle, since it's not so much social, as economic and in many ways not less utopian than all options that people tried to implement in Eastern countries.

LOL you're actually serious too. Unfortunately you were born a century too late.

P.S. A lot of my professors grew up and were trained behind the Iron Curtain. I think my understanding of Marxism is just fine. But in any case, good luck convincing a video game company in the U.S. to apply already failed principals that conflict almost entirely with the world view upon which the U.S. exists.

P.S.S. Have you considered footnotes? I would definitely take someone more seriously if they provide footnotes.

[Elias01]

I really do not care if you use it. My critique of this system like gear score was using it because you want 390 ilvl geared players to speed run a +4 or something. I saw it evolve in Wrath and it immediately made me hate the game to the point I cancelled my sub for 9 years.

So? If there would be no 390+ for mythic +4 runs those demands would drop until there would be enough players. This is nothing but supply/demand economi. If those groups keep fiding people 390+ to run mythic +4 they will always pick those players over lower rio player. You would do same just like anyone els.

[Khallid]

Meh, I think pugging is what really ruins the game. Raider.io score is just a natural progression of pugging, just like gearscore was before it. They exist because of pugging and they only affect pugging.

If you want to have fun playing this game, the answer is to not pug.

[rohoz]

Meh, I think pugging is what really ruins the game. Raider.io score is just a natural progression of pugging, just like gearscore was before it. They exist because of pugging and they only affect pugging.

If you want to have fun playing this game, the answer is to not pug.

100% this.
I do my wizard chores (7 max levels so it's a lot of chores) solo, and everything else with 3+ rl friends or my guild. Game is positively delightful.

[Sansnom]

I have no idea why you auto assume good player = shitty person and shitty player = nice person...

I do not. I just prioritise good people over good players. If we wipe, we wipe. If the group succeed, great. Just from my experience, most of the complaint I have encounter were mainly from players commenting on the performance of others. Not saying that it happens all the time.