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  1. #881
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    LFR and LFD were a response to Gear score. So everyone here that supports Raider.IO and uses it as a way to exclude people you know can clear the content but not at the super fast pace you want are going to bring another system to this game that you will hate.

    This MMO after Gear score has never been the same.
    And what els would you have to recognize player eperience with dungeon? How i am supostu pick players for my group when i have no clue what experience they have with dungeon?

  2. #882
    Mechagnome Alkizon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    This is the first time I've seen someone apply Marxist theory to try to convince people they're playing the game the wrong way. Bravo I guess?

    The problem I see with your argument (and Marxism in general) is that there is no objective truth, just an opinion that people should not be selfish and that systems should (and could) be made which would force people to stop being selfish. I do not expect in my lifetime the obvious failures of Marxism and lesser forms of socialism will be finally abandoned by the overly 'academic' (using that term more in a sense of seeming than of being) crowd but we can hope. And, of course, it is understandable that bottom feeders will never willingly let the theory go, given its significant advantages for the lazy and uninspired.
    No, man, exactly Marxist theory (and this is essentially main game philosophy now, problem is that they are mistaken in nature of motivation, as well as theory itself) led game to such a pitiful result, and I have already spoken about this many times. I explained how it works easier, but you didn't read my links +/+ (see, you can properly motivate person, system can help understand that social and less selfish decision will be clearly more useful in it "There were deliberate design decisions that prevented players from being completely self-sufficient."(c), and therefore able to give more rewarding experience; but! problem is that you consider experience to be only positive, but experience, as I already said, doesn't have polarity, it’s just knowledge that person can apply in a given situation, it's just people tend to give it particular color depending on characteristics of their own/prevailing morality, and since player will be more experienced in humanistic acts, this is what will be his/her tendency to act in current situation ("more frequently", not rare), and this already has nothing to do with Marxism or some more complex matter) from here and that's why such delusion. Actually, current discussion has nothing to do with this theory in principle, since it's not so much social, as economic and in many ways not less utopian than all options that people tried to implement in Eastern countries.

    All I want for them is to stop imposing their stupid decisions on others, but offer people to survive independently in the world according to its rules, and not through some silly mythical automation that has no theoretical basis in aisles of this universe. I understand that I formulated it a bit difficult, but meaning is approximately like that. But since formation of a more stable relationship requires certain conditions, it's therefore necessary to eliminate at least illogical/"negative" factors leading to unwanted/destructive "tendencies" (it's not necessary to build artificial, expensive and non-working walls, history says this, you need to work with people, understand their motivation, system should teach and form respect, but not try to exert pisical pressure/order them, which always causes resistance as first reaction, fear can effectively act only as a secondary reinforcer, not the main one, otherwise system gets into the standstill).
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    LOL you're actually serious too. Unfortunately you were born a century too late.

    P.S. A lot of my professors grew up and were trained behind the Iron Curtain. I think my understanding of Marxism is just fine. But in any case, good luck convincing a video game company in the U.S. to apply already failed principals that conflict almost entirely with the world view upon which the U.S. exists.

    P.S.S. Have you considered footnotes? I would definitely take someone more seriously if they provide footnotes.
    Well, you didn't refute me (rather misunderstand, because I would tried to convince them on don't use "failed principals", since vice versa they using them; and it seemed to me that you think it's good thing to train selfish @$$holes, it's only not clear then why such general dissatisfaction with social component in game now, people should like it if it's so good, but I'm not sure that you meant exactly this, or maybe just were joking?), so I'm actually have nothing to lean on in understanding of where this conversation continuation - don't see point in what you said for absence of any your arguments (in other words: I have nothing to answer, because you said nothing, except for obvious stuff that weren't related to my point of view, and therefore redundant in this conversation). I also could attack “person” part, but I’m too lazy to do this and don't consider it polite, so let's end with this, since this not leading anywhere
    Last edited by Alkizon; 2019-02-08 at 08:03 AM.
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  3. #883
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias01 View Post
    And what els would you have to recognize player eperience with dungeon? How i am supostu pick players for my group when i have no clue what experience they have with dungeon?
    I really do not care if you use it. My critique of this system like gear score was using it because you want 390 ilvl geared players to speed run a +4 or something. I saw it evolve in Wrath and it immediately made me hate the game to the point I cancelled my sub for 9 years.

  4. #884
    Quote Originally Posted by Alkizon View Post
    No, man, exactly Marxist theory (and this is essentially main game philosophy now, problem is that they are mistaken in nature of motivation, as well as theory itself) led game to such a pitiful result, and I have already spoken about this many times. I explained how it works easier, but you didn't read my links +/+ (see, you can properly motivate person, system can help understand that social and less selfish decision will be clearly more useful in it, and therefore able to give more rewarding experience; but! problem is that you consider experience to be only positive, but experience, as I already said, doesn't have polarity, it’s just knowledge that person can apply in a given situation, it's just people tend to give it particular color depending on characteristics of their own/prevailing morality, and since he will be more experienced in humanistic acts, this is what will be his tendency to act in current situation, and this already has nothing to do with Marxism or some more complex matter) from here and that's why such delusion. Actually, current discussion has nothing to do with this theory in principle, since it's not so much social, as economic and in many ways not less utopian than all options that people tried to implement in Eastern countries.
    LOL you're actually serious too. Unfortunately you were born a century too late.

    P.S. A lot of my professors grew up and were trained behind the Iron Curtain. I think my understanding of Marxism is just fine. But in any case, good luck convincing a video game company in the U.S. to apply already failed principals that conflict almost entirely with the world view upon which the U.S. exists.

    P.S.S. Have you considered footnotes? I would definitely take someone more seriously if they provide footnotes.

  5. #885
    Quote Originally Posted by Puremallace View Post
    I really do not care if you use it. My critique of this system like gear score was using it because you want 390 ilvl geared players to speed run a +4 or something. I saw it evolve in Wrath and it immediately made me hate the game to the point I cancelled my sub for 9 years.
    So? If there would be no 390+ for mythic +4 runs those demands would drop until there would be enough players. This is nothing but supply/demand economi. If those groups keep fiding people 390+ to run mythic +4 they will always pick those players over lower rio player. You would do same just like anyone els.

  6. #886
    Meh, I think pugging is what really ruins the game. Raider.io score is just a natural progression of pugging, just like gearscore was before it. They exist because of pugging and they only affect pugging.

    If you want to have fun playing this game, the answer is to not pug.

  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by Khallid View Post
    Meh, I think pugging is what really ruins the game. Raider.io score is just a natural progression of pugging, just like gearscore was before it. They exist because of pugging and they only affect pugging.

    If you want to have fun playing this game, the answer is to not pug.
    100% this.
    I do my wizard chores (7 max levels so it's a lot of chores) solo, and everything else with 3+ rl friends or my guild. Game is positively delightful.

  8. #888
    Quote Originally Posted by Dawon View Post
    I have no idea why you auto assume good player = shitty person and shitty player = nice person...
    I do not. I just prioritise good people over good players. If we wipe, we wipe. If the group succeed, great. Just from my experience, most of the complaint I have encounter were mainly from players commenting on the performance of others. Not saying that it happens all the time.

  9. #889
    Scarab Lord dacoolist's Avatar
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    If you can't get into a group: Make your own group for Heroic/Mythicc+ and move on.. I don't see a problem RIGHT

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Sansnom View Post
    For a game that is supposely a MMO, people playing together. People are creating tools to segregate themselves into smaller groups.

    I find it rather hypocritical for the community as whole where people are complaining about the state of community etc and yet embrace and promote the use of add on that segregate and screen out people they do not want to associate with.

    That is my view anyway.
    Finding ways to segregate ourselves is what humans do. We've done it throughout the entire course of our history. We are a combative species, not a competitive one. If we don't create things to argue and fight about, then we... well, I don't know what because I've never personally seen a day go by where some person isn't trying to harm, exploit, or belittle someone else.

  11. #891
    I returned to game around the end of legion after had to quit at SoO. I had no idea what was raider.io and mythic. Because when I quit, they meant nothing but cosmetics. I came back and when I tried a mythic for the first time after understanding it is the new challenging content in the game. People were was this thing called io score. Looked for it, downloaded, did some reading and I worked my score up to near 950. All by myself + and 4 randoms. 950 both as tank and dps. I did it as a casual. I have a crazy wife and a job that lets me only be available for 2 hours in weekdays each night - supposing I can play. Weekends are sometimes not possible too. I can only raid on saturday sunday nights. but I got heroic aotc as well.

    anybody complaining about raider.io should git gut. simple as that. it hurts to accept but if i could do it, anybody can do it. I sucked, I made mistakes, I got kicked etc. but in the end I now sit at 950 io. It is my aim to make it over 1k before the season ends.

    be patient, dont expect instant gratification. do keys on your level. it really makes difference in higher keys. I swear no +2 people can pull off what is necessary in a +11. skill, technique, ilvls all of that. simply impossible. you would be asking others to carry you. this is a fact. raider.io has no problem. it is doing its job. you just need to get better and be patient. I have been working on my io since bfa start. and still have 950 this late.

  12. #892
    I started a group for a +2 shrine, didn't bother checking io or even asking for some ridiculous item level requirement like "350+" because it's a +2. Sad to say, we didn't make it to the second boss lol. Sooo with that being said, I'm all for raider.io

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by swaylol View Post
    I started a group for a +2 shrine, didn't bother checking io or even asking for some ridiculous item level requirement like "350+" because it's a +2. Sad to say, we didn't make it to the second boss lol. Sooo with that being said, I'm all for raider.io
    absolutely.I have wasted 6 keys in siege of boralus because people did not know that they have to lure first boss to the bombs.

  14. #894
    Raider.io m+ score is probably the only progress I do in WoW right now. The game itself does not offer any features or content to progress in. Mythic raid is the only other thing to progress in, we're at mythic Zul and raids happen only during certain times of the week.

    If there would be no Raider.io score, there would literally nothing to do in WoW, running m+ would have no meaning, pushing high m+ keys would have no meaning, since Blizzard does not reward you for doing high keys. The 370 gear that drops from at the end of every dungeon offers no upgrades because the chance of procing up on correct stats item is too low. We run literally 3-4 15+ keys almost every single day, not seen an upgrade from the dungeon end chests, nor weekly chest for months now.

  15. #895
    Quote Originally Posted by Qnubi View Post
    The problem is that the reward system is attracting both players to the same activity. Everyone wants to get better gear, thus everyone will want to do a m+10 each week, best player and worst player. Sadly there are only 2 solutions, one is the current one with artificial numbers put next to the name. Which works to some degree, but obviously also blocks out capable players from content. The other solution would be to reduce the difficulty where the good players can carry the bad players and just need the warm body for some extra DPS. At this point prestige is long gone and there are groups carrying these bad players for gold anyway. Might as well let good players just carry bad ones without much hassle.
    The game already throws free gear at people from braindead content like warfronts and worldbosses, so let's dumb down the dungeons too or award top gear from daily heroic because everyone wants their gear? The reward structure is already deep into welfare state and participation award area with titanforging and free handouts. Next step is giving gear to people for being subbed and logging in, because they want the gear, and Blizz wants the subs and the login metrics. "Why should I work for anything, I pay 15$ a month already isn't it enough?" type of excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kill Broccoli View Post
    Gearscore, Raider.io, Curve etc are just a consequence of how grindy the game has become.
    No, they're the consequence of erosion of social bonds in the game, so when it comes to constantly grouping with unknown players you can't vouch for, you start needing extra tools to figure out whether they're capable or not. However, there is no perfect tool when it comes to replacing knowing the person. Unfortunately, that's what the "community" wanted, to have no community, to not be dependent on guilds and other social ties, and have "1 click to group & go" accessibility. Next step is people want auto-matchmaking for everything because grouping apparently isn't simplified enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    The problem I see with your argument (and Marxism in general) is that there is no objective truth, just an opinion that people should not be selfish and that systems should (and could) be made which would force people to stop being selfish.
    Unfortunately the success of the whole system relied on everyone to be honest and not abuse it. And that's why it always fails, every single time. In the perfect communist utopia weaker people are "carried" or catered to, and their needs are covered, but in exchange they do their best to contribute the best they can in their limited capability. However every single human community always has leeches, beggars, exploiters of others' good will, lazy people who don't care to give anything back as long as they can get away with it, etc. And that's why marxism, communism and idyllic utopias always crumble or turn into despotic caricature of itself.

  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    The game already throws free gear at people from braindead content like warfronts and worldbosses, so let's dumb down the dungeons too or award top gear from daily heroic because everyone wants their gear? The reward structure is already deep into welfare state and participation award area with titanforging and free handouts. Next step is giving gear to people for being subbed and logging in, because they want the gear, and Blizz wants the subs and the login metrics. "Why should I work for anything, I pay 15$ a month already isn't it enough?" type of excuse.
    No, that's not what I was going to follow up with. Just that gear as a reward is a bad idea for the highest content, gear is something everyone craves and wants to get to become stronger. The highest endgame should reward something desirable unrelated to power. Be it mounts/Titles, or exclusives hangouts like an order hall where only +10 players that beat every dungeon can go to. Hell, it could even be unlocking FLYING prior to the masses. Let's assume +7 yields the weekly 380 ilvl from the chest, this would be pretty easy (compared to +10). If you end up in a sucky group you will still most likely finish it with maybe 1-2 wipes instead of 5+.

    Gear is the MAIN factor people want to do content they are not qualified to do, it's so alluring that they even pay money/gold to get it. I predict the game to improve vastly in terms of community if the gear would cap at +7 m+ and for example heroic raiding. Mythic raiding and high mythic keys should still unlock stuff, but it could be anything from shorter CD for the whistle, to mounts/titles to special places and unlocking flying prior to patch 8.x.

    You even help my argument by saying that gear has lost all it's meaning and value in terms of prestige, so it does not even work as a way to determine who is good/bad. (that's why people use RIO and not ilvl to pick players)
    Last edited by Qnubi; 2019-01-15 at 10:57 AM.

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