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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    Well I certainly hope that Sacrifice will be made into what it was in past - straight % damage increase to ST spells, which will basically give what you want.
    I don't considering sacrifice NOT being a straight damage buff is helping keep warlocks afloat in pvp. It's serving a far bigger crutch there than for people who just don't want to play with a pet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidax View Post
    So as a whole - yep, I don't have much complaints exactly because:
    • Spec is super healthy now - it performs well, does so without crutches and I really don't want them to go and try fixing something that works. We stepped on these rakes one too many times already.
    • It is clean - baseline spells are well defined and cleaned up, optimal build does not revolve around picking every last bloody active like Aff.
    • There really aren't many real issues to begin with. Talent balance and that's about it - PvE-side at least. Things like mobility are intended weakness that is compensated by pure power as seen in statistics, so it's fine really.
    I agree with you for the most part, but I think specs as a whole suffer from the same problem - dreadfully bland core toolkit. Affliction is probably the worst for it, where shadowbolt does absolutely nothing and then has two dead talents to turn it into TBC-complexity in Nightfall and SE, but even destruction has a pretty bland ability set. I don't think the return of Backlash would be bad and it baffles me as to why Flashover is a talent instead of baseline and balanced around, the second charge being removed to become a talent just feels ass - unfortunately it's currently saving us from having to take the shitshow that is Soul Fire or Eradication.

    Every expansion it feels like core abilities or quality of life spells are carved up to become talents either due to pruning or creative bankruptcy, destructions is less bad than the others, but could still improve a lot - part of the problem is probably that nearly EVERY talent row is a damage talent row, to bring MOP up (as taboo as that apparently is these days), there was only really 1 dps talent row - the grimoire one, and then the clusterfuck row with KJC / AD / MF, which was an absolute travesty but at least felt like it was TRYING to do something interesting and was just broken as fuck - that felt like a much better ratio than the current design where every row bar 2 are dps rows, covering things from the major dps CD that carries so much of destructions damage to it's AOE and being full of boring jank like the ROF talent.
    Last edited by Nagassh; 2018-10-17 at 01:11 PM.

  2. #42
    I think it depends on point of view... do we really want most of the talent rows to be just some utility that we don't really care about and has no meaning whatsoever for our actual gameplay? It was a complaint about MoP talents and reason why many screamed bloody murder at these and the whole way MoP talent system change worked out.

    I think current way where talent rows offer very meaningful changes to your rotation or gameplay in most of the rows is a better alternative. The issue is the same issue that isn't solved for many years now - talent balance and quite honestly I have no illusions about this being solved anytime soon if ever, it's just how it is really - when shit's so different, then there is always mathematically best option after all. For Aff (ST at least) it's pretty much all rows all actives (cancer, IMO) and for Destruction it's the opposite.

  3. #43
    Been playing demo on my alt for like 3 weeks now. Currently ilvl 360.
    Im certainly enjoying the spec. And i see a huge influx in my dps depending on certain fights. And strangely Ghuun is one of my better fights.
    However in aoe it feels a bit bad to sacrifice my imps to use implosion and im generally kind of on edge when to effectively use it. Anyone has some insight?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    Demo needs something, not sure what though.

    It feels like the entire spec is one big filler after another, there's no defining mechanic to it ( even tyrant feels like filler).

    They either need to give a blanket buff again if they don't plan on changing anything or bring something in like thalkiel's consumption to add an edge to the spec.

    Another route they could take though is straight up buffing imp damage/lifespan but placing a cap on the total amount of imps one can have ( let's say 15-20 ) or giving a few quality of life changes like making vilefiend/dreadstalkers instant cast or HoG being instant cast would end up giving the spec fluidity and extra options to move around.
    respectfully, this is a load of bullshit.

    1.) people dont like the spell and some have even complained about it, but implosion is a defining mechanic about demo. we blow up imps that do good damage.
    2.) tyrant is definitely a defining moment, more so if you play consumption. you can focus your build up and damage around your main cd to burst shit down. It needs a damage increase but it is def a good mechanic to play with.
    3.) Thalkiel's consumption is no different from tyrant either. the only difference is that you can't quantify the damage on dps meter because of how the damage is dealt.
    4.)nether portal is a shit talent. its expensive, and the damage is shit, but as a defining mechanic where we summon demons from the nether? thats exactly what that is.

    demo has problems but i respectfully disagree that it has no defining mechanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinka1 View Post
    Been playing demo on my alt for like 3 weeks now. Currently ilvl 360.
    Im certainly enjoying the spec. And i see a huge influx in my dps depending on certain fights. And strangely Ghuun is one of my better fights.
    However in aoe it feels a bit bad to sacrifice my imps to use implosion and im generally kind of on edge when to effectively use it. Anyone has some insight?
    implosion is a slight dps increase on 2 targets and a definite on 3 targets. head over to Lockonestopshop.com and it'll explain how to use implosion.

    secondly, the main target will only take damage based on the energy left on the imps but the secondary targets will take full damage. what that means is if you have a priority target you want to take out and the mobs are grouped up, dont use implosion on the priority target, use it on a secondary target so that the priority target takes full damage.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    respectfully, this is a load of bullshit.

    1.) people dont like the spell and some have even complained about it, but implosion is a defining mechanic about demo. we blow up imps that do good damage.
    2.) tyrant is definitely a defining moment, more so if you play consumption. you can focus your build up and damage around your main cd to burst shit down. It needs a damage increase but it is def a good mechanic to play with.
    3.) Thalkiel's consumption is no different from tyrant either. the only difference is that you can't quantify the damage on dps meter because of how the damage is dealt.
    4.)nether portal is a shit talent. its expensive, and the damage is shit, but as a defining mechanic where we summon demons from the nether? thats exactly what that is.

    demo has problems but i respectfully disagree that it has no defining mechanic.
    I'm not saying it has no mechanics, i'm saying it's so bland it feels like filler, you said it yourself, you dont SEE what tyrant does on meter, I'm not arguing that it is a dps increase and there is skill in timing it properly with pets, but overall it's just background stuff happening.

    Piling more and more weak pets feels meh, you're forced to sustain a certain level of pets to bring out good dps ( if you're not cleaving) and that forces you to plant your feet and turret, implosion is a nice mechanic if it felt better than it currently is, in fact most of the toolkit feels weak sauce, there's some tuning to be done on some spells imo.

    And this is just from a pve standpoint, in pvp implosion is considered too wasteful/weak to be used which means your only option is to play around tyrant and attempt to fit some semblance of pressure every 1.5 min which is extremely lacking atm, the spec lacks the potential it had to fulfill kill windows, since thalkiels is gone and fel lord was nerfed to oblivion, we have no viable strategy to shine with this spec atm, if they don't add anything to it at the very least it needs a numbers buff to it's ST damage once again.

    Edit: not to mention a lot of the demo talents are trash or too weak.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chroman View Post
    Dunno what to say but I am really enjoying demo and I feel that it is doing just fine. Might not be the top spec but for me personally it does well enough and I am having fun so I'm sticking with it.
    Agreed. I just started playing Demo on my lock and am really loving the concept. I do wish a couple of the cooldowns (vilefiend & tyrant) were instant.
    “Destiny is a lie. Destiny is justification for atrocity. It is the means by which murderers armour themselves against reprimand. It is a word intended to stand in place of ethics, denying all moral context.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Midnight Tides

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    I'm not saying it has no mechanics, i'm saying it's so bland it feels like filler, you said it yourself, you dont SEE what tyrant does on meter, I'm not arguing that it is a dps increase and there is skill in timing it properly with pets, but overall it's just background stuff happening.

    Piling more and more weak pets feels meh, you're forced to sustain a certain level of pets to bring out good dps ( if you're not cleaving) and that forces you to plant your feet and turret, implosion is a nice mechanic if it felt better than it currently is, in fact most of the toolkit feels weak sauce, there's some tuning to be done on some spells imo.

    And this is just from a pve standpoint, in pvp implosion is considered too wasteful/weak to be used which means your only option is to play around tyrant and attempt to fit some semblance of pressure every 1.5 min which is extremely lacking atm, the spec lacks the potential it had to fulfill kill windows, since thalkiels is gone and fel lord was nerfed to oblivion, we have no viable strategy to shine with this spec atm, if they don't add anything to it at the very least it needs a numbers buff to it's ST damage once again.

    Edit: not to mention a lot of the demo talents are trash or too weak.
    i see what youre saying, but thats not a slight against the spec not having "defining mechanics". its more so of damage is too low or talents aren't balanced. don't get me wrong, i think demo could use a few mechanical adjustments but i wouldn't say it has no defining mechanic and that was my point.

    separate from that tho, pets are just dots. these dots "tick" a lot and because of it, more often means less damage. if you look at our damage breakdown, our biggest damage source is actually HOG. its a spell that does upfront damage with a dot that cost 3 shards. it doesnt look like it because its separated into hog damage and wild imps. so when you say piling more and more weak pets feel meh, thats a perception issue (which is valid btw) but is not necessarily a bad thing.


    i dont pvp much, but yea, our kit isn't conducive to the current environment of what you need to be successful in high lvl pvp. because we're on the turrent side, we need to be able to soak more damage and we dont. and because we can't soak more damage we need to be more mobile and we're not. shit sucks. hopefully blizzard improves survivability like they said would for 8.1.

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    forgot to mention this above with tyrant, but even tho we dont "see" its full effect on the damage breakdown, we can see the rise and falls during when its up and when its not. the same way we can see it during heroism, we can see it during pots, the same way we can see it during anything that "increases damage by x%. we can still feel the effects and see it when tyrant is up.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by garonne View Post
    i see what youre saying, but thats not a slight against the spec not having "defining mechanics". its more so of damage is too low or talents aren't balanced. don't get me wrong, i think demo could use a few mechanical adjustments but i wouldn't say it has no defining mechanic and that was my point.

    separate from that tho, pets are just dots. these dots "tick" a lot and because of it, more often means less damage. if you look at our damage breakdown, our biggest damage source is actually HOG. its a spell that does upfront damage with a dot that cost 3 shards. it doesnt look like it because its separated into hog damage and wild imps. so when you say piling more and more weak pets feel meh, thats a perception issue (which is valid btw) but is not necessarily a bad thing.


    i dont pvp much, but yea, our kit isn't conducive to the current environment of what you need to be successful in high lvl pvp. because we're on the turrent side, we need to be able to soak more damage and we dont. and because we can't soak more damage we need to be more mobile and we're not. shit sucks. hopefully blizzard improves survivability like they said would for 8.1.

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    forgot to mention this above with tyrant, but even tho we dont "see" its full effect on the damage breakdown, we can see the rise and falls during when its up and when its not. the same way we can see it during heroism, we can see it during pots, the same way we can see it during anything that "increases damage by x%. we can still feel the effects and see it when tyrant is up.
    Demo isn't getting a buff to it's survivability though, they only mentioned affliction/destruction.

    My biggest concern with demo right now in pvp is that it has no burst, you can get high pressure on a target rolling if you chain cast but more often than not you will be CCed or interrupted 1/3rd of the time in arenas, even if you fake cast and use off-schools to keep chain casting your damage will be much lower than what it is in pve due to the nature of how the spec plays.

    It's a ramp up spec and even though I know that pets are basically dots, those dots have a short duration and the only way to fully benefit from tyrant is to bank these dots ( kinda similar to how affliction and darkglare works in a way ), but it's much harder to ramp effectively in pvp due to the volatile nature of pvp and constant need to reposition ( significantly more than pve), if you add all that you can see how demo is almost non-existent in pvp, the damage is just too low for a pressure spec and it has no burst.

    But it can be fixed ( hopefully it will ), I wouldn't mind the mechanics of the spec if it packed the power needed to back that playstyle, because that's basically what a ramp up spec should have, power.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Pinka1 View Post
    Been playing demo on my alt for like 3 weeks now. Currently ilvl 360.
    Im certainly enjoying the spec. And i see a huge influx in my dps depending on certain fights. And strangely Ghuun is one of my better fights.
    However in aoe it feels a bit bad to sacrifice my imps to use implosion and im generally kind of on edge when to effectively use it. Anyone has some insight?
    Right after Hand of Gul’dan. Your imps are a resource that happen to deal damage.

  10. #50
    Okay people thanks for the answers regarding implosion. However next step. How do i have to let it interact with tyrant. Is doesnt sound like you want to sacrifice your buffed imps.

  11. #51
    Imps take a while to spawn so straight after HoG isn't ideal.

    The Implosion rotation is at the bottom of this page: https://lockonestopshop.com/#!/Demonology/Rotation

  12. #52
    Personally I think the issue with demo lock is that blizzard can’t decide we are to be a machine gun fortress or artillery battalion.

    If blizzard want us to be a machine gun fortress, they need to boaster our defense to withstand minor mechanics so we can withstand the attack while continue to provide fire support. Only major attack will “force” us to relocate

    If they want us to be a artillery battalion, than they need to increase our burst as we will constantly fire and relocate. Majority of the time will be relocating so each chance of shelling coverage is require to be significantly.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by SpikeySquad View Post
    Imps take a while to spawn so straight after HoG isn't ideal.

    The Implosion rotation is at the bottom of this page: https://lockonestopshop.com/#!/Demonology/Rotation
    Why is there 2x SB before implosion? By my experience after 1x SB the imps should have spawned.
    Also, why not after every HoG (+1x SB) cast implosion?

  14. #54
    I can't believe how much they nerfed Fel Lord. I can't even see the dmg it does in the healthbar. Same goes for the anti-caster demon. I never tought I'd say this but I missed legion Demo...

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorad View Post
    I can't believe how much they nerfed Fel Lord. I can't even see the dmg it does in the healthbar. Same goes for the anti-caster demon. I never tought I'd say this but I missed legion Demo...
    It's 5% hp per swing now cause they halved the cd, which makes the point of this talent irrelevant as a zone control tool, players had to respect the fel lord's damage and not carelessly walk in but that's no longer the case now besides some minor stuns.

    I wish they'd left the talent untouched tbh.

  16. #56
    I’d love it if Vilefiend and Bilescourge didn’t cost a damn shard and demonic calling was baseline.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    Demo isn't getting a buff to it's survivability though, they only mentioned affliction/destruction.

    My biggest concern with demo right now in pvp is that it has no burst, you can get high pressure on a target rolling if you chain cast but more often than not you will be CCed or interrupted 1/3rd of the time in arenas, even if you fake cast and use off-schools to keep chain casting your damage will be much lower than what it is in pve due to the nature of how the spec plays.

    It's a ramp up spec and even though I know that pets are basically dots, those dots have a short duration and the only way to fully benefit from tyrant is to bank these dots ( kinda similar to how affliction and darkglare works in a way ), but it's much harder to ramp effectively in pvp due to the volatile nature of pvp and constant need to reposition ( significantly more than pve), if you add all that you can see how demo is almost non-existent in pvp, the damage is just too low for a pressure spec and it has no burst.

    But it can be fixed ( hopefully it will ), I wouldn't mind the mechanics of the spec if it packed the power needed to back that playstyle, because that's basically what a ramp up spec should have, power.


    PVP is okay on demo but if a melee jumps you before you start getting stuff rolling its really painful. Its very possible to just be stopped from doing anything but ordering your pet around. Once you are rolling with stuff you have enough instant casts that its not a big deal and you can make it work. Their aoe stun should either be instant cast with travel time or cast time but instant activation once it goes off. Having both delayed blast AND a cast time makes its use in PVP problematic at best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wholol View Post
    It's 5% hp per swing now cause they halved the cd, which makes the point of this talent irrelevant as a zone control tool, players had to respect the fel lord's damage and not carelessly walk in but that's no longer the case now besides some minor stuns.

    I wish they'd left the talent untouched tbh.
    He is still useful on flag defense he knockd down anybody he hits so you can juggle a lot of people with him which can be very useful . Also he is a half decent body guard in that you cast him where YOU want to be and then you can cast under him and if somebody starts messing with you he at least disrupts what they are trying to do which lets you get spells off.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by kaid View Post
    Their aoe stun should either be instant cast with travel time or cast time but instant activation once it goes off. Having both delayed blast AND a cast time makes its use in PVP problematic at best.
    I'd rather they just reduce the cast time to 0.5 like it used to be when they first invented it.

    Quote Originally Posted by kaid View Post
    He is still useful on flag defense he knockd down anybody he hits so you can juggle a lot of people with him which can be very useful . Also he is a half decent body guard in that you cast him where YOU want to be and then you can cast under him and if somebody starts messing with you he at least disrupts what they are trying to do which lets you get spells off.
    I mean yeah you can use it for flags but I'm not sure that's what a big cd should be used for tbh.

    Standing under the fel lord was being used since legion beta , it used to be much scarier before because melee didn't wanna get hit even once else they'd be in trouble, not to mention they could just stand at the edge and hit you unless you move to other side's edge , either way the only thing that has changed now is that they don't even worry about the damage anymore.

    At best it's now useful for peeling your healer if they're stunned, which still leaves our main issue untouched, being lack of sufficient burst damage on demand ( soulfire procs isn't enough to consider burst unless you have already stacked enough pets for it to deal decent damage).

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