Ian Bates (Red Shirt Guy) - 8.1 Darkshore Quests are REALLY Bad

[Zaganite]

Sounds like he wants to shill clicks from angry Nelf fans.

EDIT: Yup, just read it. He's mad that Tyrande doesn't "win enough".

Tough shit. It's the Forsaken warfront too.

But there's the problem. This was meant to be the Alliance patch, Tyrande under goes a super risky ritual to basically get trapped by a valk and can't do anything to Nathanos. I agree with him, she should have killed him and the valkyr died rezzing him to make it look like we did something. Right now, a very ancient race who fought demons, Azshara, orcs and more demons can't defeat a raised corpse?

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Dude, the Zandalari lose half their fleet and what is left is probably just enough to patrol Zandalar; their entire use for the Horde was the fleet. The Alliance just sends a punitive force, most of which returns unscathed, their entire fleet also returns unscathed. Mekkatorque is out of commission yes, but Jaina is just wounded and will be alright later on.

Except as of now, what has the fleets actually done for both sides?

[Zaganite]

There is no winner in the warfront. It's a never ending back and forth.

In Blizzards own lore Malfurion has reached god like powers.

In Blizzards own lore Tyrande is empowered by the only known deity in the Warcraft Universe. She freezes a whole camp of normal ass Forsaken but can't finish off another normal ass Forsaken with a bow?


Stop making excuses. It's shit writing with zero consistency.

I second this, when Thrall got his upgrade from the aspects he become green Jesus but Tyrande? Gets nothing. It's a kick to the face

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Well the Kul Tiran fleet just helped the Alliance pillage Dazar'alor. So there is that

During the war campaign we did enough without needing the fleet. Also, we have void elf portals now, I'm sure the plan would have worked without the KT fleet

[Graden]

During the war campaign, we were scouting locations, not attacking. And void elf portals can transport a strike force, not an army.

I agree with you about the war campaign and the fleet but in battle for Lordaeron we saw that void portals can transport an army too if needed.

[Mixxy]

Yes, i bet. If the Patch 8.1 raid had the Horde raid Boralus and Kill Katherine i bet all the Alliance players would go "No biggie, thats no victory for the Horde, who cares, someone else replaced here seconds later..."

Yes. They would. Most Alliance players I know are shocked to find out Katherine isn't dying in 8.1. We have barely any interaction with her, she has hardly any personality outside of "generic mom", and she's completely served her purpose in the story.

In fact, the only part about your idea that I'd roll my eyes at is the fact that we'd be getting another instance/raid in Boralus.

At least it takes the entire enemy army for Blizzard to even consider putting Dazar'alor in a vulnerable position. All it took to bring Boralus to its knees was a fat lady, a few boats worth of pirates, and a squid.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Well the Kul Tiran fleet just helped the Alliance pillage Dazar'alor. So there is that.

Do we have all the details of the 2nd half of the raid already? Because we still have the deus ex machina stick that can roast a ship in seconds. By the time it would matter we will have evened the playing field.

[Mixxy]

A fat lady and her Azerite cannons.

And we have griffons and Azerite bombs.

The quest chain in Tiragarde already proved that any old airborn chucklefuck with a sack of Azerite grenades can reduce even the biggest, scariest ships to splinters.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Which one is that stick? (If you mean the Abyssal Scepter, the Alliance steals it back during the 8.1 war campaign story before the raid).

Oh i must have missed that part.

[Louz]

Again, the question is : how?
What do you actually want? Give an example, please.


So it wouldn't matter if we kill Tyrande, since Maiev would just take her place seconds later?
You get to raid the Horde main hub. How is that not a victory? When has the Horde ever raided an Alliance main city? Even if we compare Teldrassil and Undercity, the alliance got to raid UC twice (in Wrath and Legion) and both times you fight in the city. The Horde never even entered Teldrassil.

Blizz gives the Alliance big victories one after another against the Horde and the player constantly complain because it's not permanent. Nothing is permanent in MMOs.

Do you want me to write a whole novel about it, including all the fine details? I said it in the first post you replied to.

What is raiding Horde cities for when you fuck right off after you're done raiding it?

Same with Teldrassil - Undercity. Teldrassil was conquered by Horde. What about the Undercity? Angry screamo blown it before Alliance could get anything done.

Why add that if not wanting to show Alliance how pathetically useless they are?

What's worse, this trend keeps repeating over and over, they start hyping up some big stuff, but as Alliance player, you can't help it but start wondering how will they make Horde look like the real victors.

Fucking WoD starts with Maraad saying "Not this time". Third leveling zone in, he lays face buried in dirt and the whole expansion proceeds with dead draenei being piled up and mass soul drained, ending with an orc, waving his axe, screaming "DRRRAENOR IS FRRRRRREEEEEE", mind that he was the big baddie from the start.

Siege of Orgrimmar - we might as well be raiding any other zone, result would be the same. Just like that, Siege of Zuldazar (or whatever is the name) is as much hypeworthy. Actually this time, we lose some more assets too, as opposed to SoO.

Or the whole Vindicaar case. Being a big Lightforged fan, I foolishly thought I might see them actually use it. Maybe see the Lightforged wreak havoc on Horde, you know, being the "living weapons", with all the cool light-fueled gadgets at their disposal. Instead, the only Lightforged you can see are the innkeepers on the Horde continent and a 7th Legion quartermaster.
Not even bothering explaining (making up some shitty story) why Vindicaar is not being used, they simply said that they forgot about it or didn't feel like using it. Maybe they ran out of time as they were busy making up more cool shit for Nathan the edgy cool guy who has always something edgy and cool to say.

So yeah, Alliance players have nothing to be hyped about, since they've proved over and over that the will get shat on one way or another.

[crusadernero]

Do you want me to write a whole novel about it, including all the fine details? I said it in the first post you replied to.

What is raiding Horde cities for when you fuck right off after you're done raiding it?

Same with Teldrassil - Undercity. Teldrassil was conquered by Horde. What about the Undercity? Angry screamo blown it before Alliance could get anything done.

Why add that if not wanting to show Alliance how pathetically useless they are?

What's worse, this trend keeps repeating over and over, they start hyping up some big stuff, but as Alliance player, you can't help it but start wondering how will they make Horde look like the real victors.

Fucking WoD starts with Maraad saying "Not this time". Third leveling zone in, he lays face buried in dirt and the whole expansion proceeds with dead draenei being piled up and mass soul drained, ending with an orc, waving his axe, screaming "DRRRAENOR IS FRRRRRREEEEEE", mind that he was the big baddie from the start.

Siege of Orgrimmar - we might as well be raiding any other zone, result would be the same. Just like that, Siege of Zuldazar (or whatever is the name) is as much hypeworthy. Actually this time, we lose some more assets too, as opposed to SoO.

Or the whole Vindicaar case. Being a big Lightforged fan, I foolishly thought I might see them actually use it. Maybe see the Lightforged wreak havoc on Horde, you know, being the "living weapons", with all the cool light-fueled gadgets at their disposal. Instead, the only Lightforged you can see are the innkeepers on the Horde continent and a 7th Legion quartermaster.
Not even bothering explaining (making up some shitty story) why Vindicaar is not being used, they simply said that they forgot about it or didn't feel like using it. Maybe they ran out of time as they were busy making up more cool shit for Nathan the edgy cool guy who has always something edgy and cool to say.

So yeah, Alliance players have nothing to be hyped about, since they've proved over and over that the will get shat on one way or another.

I agree 100% with you. As a Alliance player we get nothing. WOD was so horrid there. Pure horde expansion.

[Serenais]

Dude, the Zandalari lose half their fleet and what is left is probably just enough to patrol Zandalar; their entire use for the Horde was the fleet. The Alliance just sends a punitive force, most of which returns unscathed, their entire fleet also returns unscathed. Mekkatorque is out of commission yes, but Jaina is just wounded and will be alright later on.

If that is fully correct, I do not understand how that warrants a major raid. The Alliance doesn't gain any ground or secure any major objectives - the Horde defense forces the ground force the Alliance out of the city and then their navy to withdraw. One way or another, the only thing possibly achieved was hastening of succession on the Zandalari throne (which would happen soon anyway), urban destruction and an encounter that in the end means next to nothing for either side, with the exception of the Zandalari fleet being mangled.
I don't know. Does that sound like a resounding, "few times a war" kind of victory to you? A "fist bump moment", so to speak?

Now, I get that a raid portraying two factions fighting one another can't show a large scale change in status quo (or the expansion altogether, given that both sides are actually played). It's a difficulty that Blizzard must have been aware of when they came up with the expansion major theme. A raid is expected to portray a pivotal point in a major campaign. Siege of Zuldazar can't do that, with no easy way to resolve that. That is why I said "different battlefield, different objective". The Alliance simply can't secure a massive victory in this one; the Horde players would be rightfully angry.

The Alliance still needs a victory. The "big victories" that the Alliance was supposedly handed, I don't see them (sorry, "got to fight the Horde on Horde's turf", as Yriel stated, is nowhere near that, it just shows that the Alliance can project power, but not do anything with it once it is somewhere; in a way, it's just a series of multiple Operations Market Garden) - and I doubt many players do. The Alliance always withdraws. It never gains. There is nothing to celebrate. No "Victory in Europe" day, so to speak (I bet someone will mention SoO, but that really feels just like we helped the Horde manage its internal issues and then went on our merry way). I have no idea how Blizzard could handle that without majorly slighting the Horde. They should've thought that much more through before they decided that the faction conflict will be the major theme of an expansion. Eventually, someone will have to win, but nobody really can.

[George Lucas]

You are aware that he succed with what he fucking wanted and he only was beaten because Tirion got help from the light and our souls got released yes? Otherwise we all would be his willing minion but yeah, don´t let facts ruin your little headcanon mate...

What headcanon? We seem to pretty much agree about what happened. I just think it was poorly written, while you become angry about me pointing out MY grievances with the story, then just repeat stuff I already mentioned in my first post in this thread and act like I made stuff up. Just stop, I will not respond to you again.

[Deleted]

Again, the only worthwhile asset of the Zandalari was the fleet. And now it is destroyed. The Horde just allied themselves with a decadent and decrepit kingdom that just came out of a civil war, had much of its army destroyed, barely controls its central province and has lost control of all outlying areas.

you realise that every alliance 'victoy/big moment' is in a instanced version once again, right? like in soo, our pathetic minor victory wont matter here. because we will never see the results out of the said raid....yeah in lore their fleet will be gone but who cares. in lore we also had dalaran and never saw it in person. in lore we annihilated orgrimmar and after the raid it was fine as ever....same thing will happen here. everyone will forget about it after a while.

it doesnt matter. i want to see my results in game

[KaPe]

in lore we annihilated orgrimmar and after the raid it was fine as ever....same thing will happen here. everyone will forget about it after a while.

it doesnt matter. i want to see my results in game

Hey, we had our "results" during Blizzcon after MoP - one of Blizzard devs called Alliance "the only superpower on Azeroth". Sure, it didn't stop Horde from raising shit in Ashran and is completely meaningless during actual full scale war right now, but hey! Don't be greedy, there's only so many "fist bumping moments" the Alliance can take. You can enjoy your Night Warrior, but it's Horde's turn now.

[Gendibal]

You mean Dengauer or what his name was who wrote "In the Mirror" and that´s basically him remodell Nathanos as he wants to look and then have posted his "love" for Sylvanas on his twitter.

See here https://imgur.com/FX4poT6

yep the cringe is too strong in this one, that expalins a lot and now I am worried about the future storyline

[Mafic]

except they've been wrong several times in the past even needing to retcon live quests from the canon.
and that's just your irrelevant opinion.

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that's probably because the original leader of the modern horde is the self-insert of metzen.
just like the current nathanos bullshit this narcissistic stupidity inevitably taints the game.

Good points.

This is why you are a valued member of this community. Let me add that Blizz has relied on WoW fans to fix the story many, many times because WoW devs don't care for the story.

[Deleted]

Before you try to defend Blizzard - at least do your research. Only one Valkyr fights with the neckbeard self insert Nathanos.

Valkyr are only ascended Vrykul warrior maidens. Obviously very powerful but not on the level of a god empowered priestess.



In their own 8.1 writing they say the Night Warrior was able to end wars instantly for the Night Elves. Sweeping the field. Before she was even the Night Warrior, Tyrande was able to decimate armies with Starfall.

In their own lore Malfurion is the most powerful Druid on the planet. Able to call the forest to crush his enemies. Yet he sits in Bear form swatting a Valkyr?

This is what we call inconsistency. Would you like me to get you the dictionary definition?

You do your reading better. When did i say both were involved in the fighting? I watched the whole questline buddy. One was fighting and the other was raising the elves.

Sure, there is inconsistency because we don't have enough information and most of all cause it's just meant to be an introductory quest. No one big is supposed to die. It's just flavor for the warfront. I dunno, maybe i am not out to care about every little detail that it bothers me such.
Would i have liked to see them kill Nathanos? Sure, he has it coming too. But i understand that we won't kill big characters in a patch when they make perfectly plausable raid bosses. And honestly, i'd rather it be that way as well.

[AngerFork]

DBZ level writing is way more credit than I'm willing to give Blizzard writers. Also, Gohan didn't go SSJ2 until Cell destroyed Android 16, that was the trigger. Not that I'm a Malfurion fan, but I'm certainly not interested in seeing his head roll past Tyrande's feet (especially after all the other NE casualties already) before she's finally given the power to avenge her people.

I can't say I'm interested in that either, but would that not drive her to levels of anger not even yet seen towards the Horde? It would also make for an interesting partial link to Thrall's moment of seeing Taretha's head thrown at his feet. Imagine her seeing his head, crying out in pain, then leveling a Horde settlement by herself. That would definitely make the Night Warrior seem like far more than she currently does.

[Lane]

I can't say I'm interested in that either, but would that not drive her to levels of anger not even yet seen towards the Horde? It would also make for an interesting partial link to Thrall's moment of seeing Taretha's head thrown at his feet. Imagine her seeing his head, crying out in pain, then leveling a Horde settlement by herself. That would definitely make the Night Warrior seem like far more than she currently does.

I'm not interested in a Thrall parallel and as a long time NE fan I've been over the story since War of Thorns. I had no expectation of NEs being written well in BfA, so this being a continuation of the abysmal pre-patch isn't surprising just disappointing.

I never wanted a return to the faction war in the first place and the more unforgivable atrocities the Horde commits against NEs the more ridiculous it's going to be when we inevitably return to fighting alongside each other. Tyrande leveling one Horde settlement isn't going to be satisfactory vengeance either, especially since the writers will probably just turn it into another Camp T rather than any meaningful victory. It's not like she needed the Night Warrior powers to do that anyway, it's that she and Malfurion have been written almost to the point of being powerless. How the Night Warrior is portrayed in 8.1 might make sense if Tyrande had started off as someone with no pre-existing abilities of note, but that's not the case.

[InfiniteCharger]

The problem is Blizzard depends on scripted on rails storytelling and micro management of gameplay in an MMO which should have more player agency. Any town in game should be able to be attacked by the other faction if that faction has enough forces, NPCs and units to attack. Of course getting enough units, NPCs and resources to attack (or defend) is always the gatekeeper that stops this from being a garden variety affair. But Blizzard never built WOW to be a large scale siege and warfare engine. So you can attack NPCs all you want. They just die and come back over and over.

Which makes the idea that Blizzard would make faction conflict the basis of an expansion, when they know they don't have the engine to support open world conflict on a large scale makes no sense. Giving players simulated losses and simulated victories via predetermined "story points" and "scenarios" is just dumb. There is nothing there to actually win or lose because of the theme park nature of the game. Its fine if you do it with the made up npc faction of the moment because it is the made up npc faction of the moment. But when you do it to the playable factions it is different.

As many people said before BFA even came out, faction war is dumb because neither side can truly lose. All this apocalyptic burning of teldrassil and destruction of lordaeron does is makes folks mad. Primarily because Blizzard doesn't know how to create new towns and cities over time. An MMO should be like a living world where things change over time. Things get blown up, but also new stuff gets built. But not in WOW. That is why many zones are stuck in time warps from 7+ years ago.

[MikeBogina]

Wotlk Sylvanas yes, probably would have spended a lot of things mutilating the corpse of Arthas if she ever finded and because she doesn't have the power to raise new undeads

At the time, her only 2 goals were to kill Arthas and end her life, besides the obvious that Bolvar wouldn't allow her to take Arthas body, let alone doing touch it, I don't see her taking it and trying to resurrect him. I know some people probably have some sick fantasies with her, being a dominatrix and torturing Arthas... but that's just not believable. Her biggest fear was Arthas ever having the chance of capturing her again(Nightmare) and would never allow that chance to ever happen.

all of that changed with the Val'kyrs and forcing Arthas into a un-live of forced servitude is too tempting to let pass that opportunity.

All that changed after she killed herself, she wanted nothing to do with the Valkyr before that. And that last part, too tempting to let pass that opportunity... giving him the opportunity to get free and re-enslave her is a risk she'd never take.

Arthas learned to make Val'kyrs with capturing one in the shadow lands and doing reverse engineering

Not sure about capturing, in Chronicles it says that he learned of the Valkyr from the Vrykul and attempted to make his own and eventually succeeded and with them his power increased like crazy.

only Helya, Eyir and Odyn knows the secret to make more and doubt Arthas ever meet with any of these guys

The Lich King didn't meet them, no but they're not the only ones who know. At least one of Sylvanas' Val'kyr if not all know how to make more, as there's more Valkyr in the Forsaken besides Sylvanas' original 8(it's Cell Juniors all over again)
Sylvanas has the means to make more Val'kyr thanks to the Valkyr or possibly learning how from Helya(who she learned for from the Valkyr)

that is the whole point with her bargain with Helya, sure she tried and probably still researching but so far we still have the same 4(until patch 8.1)

We still don't know what was bargained with Helya and she has more than 4 Valkyr. Most likely the problem is that Sylvanas isn't the Lich King, she doesn't grow in power and thus she stuck with the few strong Valkyr she has and can only have them make weak ones, where the Lich King continuously grew in power and could keep making more powerful Valkyr. Arthas without the Lich King's unlimited power, isn't going to help.

About death knights power levels and free will, the ebon blade under the control of Arthas or dks such as Morgraine are still op even under mind control, they just need some autonomy to think battle plans and to improvise if the situation requires.

The Knights of the Ebonblade were the ones I was talking about @_@
Their personalities and more free will than mindless scourge is what made them more powerful and yes they had more free will than most of the Scourge, proof by the fact that they rebelled literally right next to the Lich King because their feelings were hurt.

The thing about stormwind, yes we could stealthy enter into the city by the main gain but Arthas a guy from the royalty, surely knows more than an average forsakens would know about those cities, secret passages to escape or enter into the city in case of being siege

Pretty sure your grasping at straws here. Secret passages to the castle really don't mean much, plague the city and raise some guards and get your answers. Not really a selling point for uses of Arthas under Sylvanas.

that is how he managed to enter in silvermoon in the first place

Yup, exactly how he did it, got someone who know all the secret royal passageways... oh wait that never happened

he knew about the defense system and needed someone inside to desactivate, with that kind of knowledge it would be very useful in any invasion

He didn't know quel'thalas' defenses and got lucky that he sensed one of the archmages inside who lusted for power and hated his own people to deactive the gates(not secret royal passageways) and if he didn't get lucky, the scourge would have most likely failed because they weren't prepared for the Elfgates.

with that kind of knowledge it would be very useful in any invasion, in fact he smuggled plaged grain in Stormwind and Orgrimmar in the pre-event of wotlk, something not everyone can do.

Yup his vast knowledge of Orgrimmar, from when he was a boy... running around in Orgimmar, in the secret royal passageways.
It's a game, none of this secret passageways matters in WoW. Both factions know what to do once they get into each other's cities, just look at how the Alliance was able to get Alliance race spies in Orgrimmar and Undercity.
If this was ever a problem, Sylvanas can just raise someone who will instantly betray their people and spill the beans. or can be used to bring the plague in themselves.

About Sylvanas, probably she wouldn't be around or maybe she does if the azerite fix the shit the horde has done(writers saving her or just wanting to piss off the alliance)

I know it sucks, Horde characters still living is just the worse, only Alliance and there 20+ prominent characters should live forever! Look at it this way, every time the WRITERs want to make a pvp expansion, they drag a Horde character through the mud to do it. "Lets destroy 2 cities to start this one off, who should do it?" "Just have Sylvanas destroy both!".... -_-

if Argus can instant rez demons, Azeroth can do that as well with the average azerthorian

Argus was turned into a Fel world and was used to anchor demon souls and hasten their resurrection. He wasn't used to resurrect them, that was something that was already natural to them. That's not to say she wont have resurrecting powers, just that your conclusion from Argus can so she can is wrong.

she will only need grasp control over the shadow lands or have some ferryman that can transport souls to her and if you ask why would the planet do that

Mhmmm interesting little idea

well there is a old god with a massive naga army and faceless, probably she want to get rid of that and will need a lot of hands, besides we can play(writers) with the idea of Azeroth's own crusade over the cosmos with her inhabitants becoming into pawns

I can't see her using the shadowlands as she is now, that being an unborn titan. Maybe when she's born and if she gains powers of the the shadowlands or even has death powers, that might be a possibility, but right now she's just some yolk that needs to be molded. I've theorized on here before that Azeroth could be born as a world size Val'kyr and with Death creeping around, it might be a thing. Would be interesting if she raised the dead to fight the Void Lords. But YoggSaron and his minions, if they faced a force of death, i can't see it being by her as she is now.