Toxic masculinity: Life as a man isn’t always easy either

[Spectral]

there is nothing toxic about being physically fit. its becomes toxic if you consider someone who is not as fit - not to be a man. stable and calm is good. wooden to the point of suppressing all emotion - toxic. head of the household - becasue you are best at it in your family? fine. becasue you think you should be by the virtue of having balls, never-mind if your wife might be better at things? - toxic. all of the virtues you have praised as masculine... are not necessarily male exclusive. they are just... virtues, period.

seeing a trend?

things that are toxic - judging masculinity based on completely superficial parameters. the only reason for example my hubs doesn't get branded a what's that misogynistic insult manly men love to use? a yes, a pussy. the only reason he is not labeled one thanks to having exactly zero interest in watching sports or getting drunk off his ass, or ogling women is because he (oh thank goodness /eyeroll) still has some hobbies that are viewed as masculine.. and well if they would fight him, he'd win in a physical fight. aint he lucky /another eyeroll

when you are judged whether you are a real man on a basis of how you look, or what you like (god help you if you like Barbara Streisand - GAAAAY /eyes roll all the way back to normal position), how well you suppress your emotions or how lewd you get - its just... awful. and its actualy awful both for dudes who fit the very narrow and shallow definition of manly. and for dudes who do not.

men trying to be manly may suppress their actual desires and preferences - which sucks. they may hold off or refrain completely from asking for help when they could really use it and end up hurting themselves (and/or others around them). they are judged by the rest of the world based on rigid and narrow and SHALLOW standards. men are simultaneously seen as more dangerous and less trust worthy, while also being expected to be protectors and most trustworthy.

and yes, its not just red pillers that acknowledge it, the main difference is red pillers are (oh the irony) as shallow as toxic masculinity is, they are actualy defending shallow standards... while blaming women for everything else.

and to the whatabout posts that are already popping up.

yes being a woman is difficult and annoying and full of its own shallow rigid requirements to be seen as a "real woman" many of which are actively contradictory. but. that doesn't mean that being a dude is easy in our society. its just difficult in DIFFERENT ways.

Thanks for the reply, I think there's a lot to be said for what you're getting at with shared virtues. Much of the human experience simply isn't gender-specific - men and women both benefit from and are more virtuous by exhibiting fitness, stability, leadership, and kindness. I do think there are some important gender-specific distinctions in how these are expressed, but I probably don't have time to write that idea up meaningful tonight, so hopefully I can get to that more tomorrow.

I certainly agree strongly that the red-pill version of masculinity really is shallow, clownish, and toxic. I don't think replacing it with a more feminist perspective is useful, but (again), that's going to need to be a longer post than I have time for at the moment.

Sorry for the nothingish response, just wanted to say I appreciate the thoughtful post rather than ignoring it.

[Deleted]

There's one thing I learned about talking about your feelings. You are always told how you should talk about your feelings, but often as soon as you make an effort and talk about your feelings to a significant other that puts a dent in the relationship. You can talk about your feelings to friends (male or female), family etc but with your significant other you have to tread lightly with.

The other thing that I learned is never to fight about anything. You won't and can't win, no matter how important is it for you or how strongly you feel about the subject of the argument. You sit it out, take whatever comes your way and afterwards cross your fingers and hope that they'll come around.

If talking about your feelings puts a dent in your relationship, then you sure as all hell do not have a partner that actually loves you. Holy fuck that's the most screwed up thing I've heard in awhile.

And if your partner is such a child that he or she cannot handle a freakin argument and you not always agreeing, then you're not in a relationship you're basically below him/her, not an equal at all. It's less a relationship and more akin to abuse or manipulation.

No wonder men are fucked up if this is how they think things should be, giving me nightmares here. Find someone that fucking respects you, good god.

[Bodakane]

What an incredibly douchey response. Just because you have never gone through hardship doesn't mean those who haven't don't exist. Holy fuck.

"I'm so rich, I can't believe all these poor people complaining, JUST GET MONEY!"

I'm sorry but no.

The current world is designed by men for men. Women have it tough, men do not.

[Deleted]

I'm 44 and have never experienced a single hardship due to being a man.

The hardest thing about being male in this world is living in a house with 6 large dogs with wagging tails at my testicle latitude.

if any guy tells you they have hardships because they are male, it is because someone has problem with them being an asshole or they are perfectly fine but surround themselves with assholes and get grief for not being more like them.

Yeah you're to old to have experianced more modern trends, most modern issues are hitting men between 20-30 atm. But even for people your age there are tons that you just fail to see, as does society.

You think people end up in addiction, homelessness etc because they want to? Or take their lives just for fun? Men make out the vast majority of suicides.

Learn to see beyond your own dense self, please.

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I'm sorry but no.

The current world is designed by men for men. Women have it tough, men do not.

.... For every woman employed in my current age group there are 2-3 men unemployed on average (20-30). But yeah, facing a near impossibilty to get a job as long as a cuter woman applies for sure isnt frustrating.

I dont blame women tho, I blame society for thinking that a cute girl somehow affects sales more than competent personel. Also, stop thinking that the US or wherever you live is the whole picture.

[Bodakane]

Yeah you're to old to have experianced more modern trends, most modern issues are hitting men between 20-30 atm. But even for people your age there are tons that you just fail to see, as does society.

You think people end up in addiction, homelessness etc because they want to? Or take their lives just for fun? Men make out the vast majority of suicides.

Learn to see beyond your own dense self, please.

Oh STFU, pay attention and quit conflating things.

I didn't say men don't suffer hardships. I said men don't suffer hardships due to being male.

Jesus, people need to learn to read.

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.... For every woman employed in my current age group there are 2-3 men unemployed on average (20-30). But yeah, facing a near impossibilty to get a job as long as a cuter woman applies for sure isnt frustrating.

I dont blame women tho, I blame society for thinking that a cute girl somehow affects sales more than competent personel. Also, stop thinking that the US or wherever you live is the whole picture.

Citation needed.

If it is true....who the fuck do you think is hiring the "cuter" women?

[Better]

What are you talking about? There's lots of feminsits that hate TERFs just as much as you do.

What do TERFs have to do with what you quoted? TERFs have a very specific gripe with normal feminism, and the post you quoted wasn't talking about trans women at all...

[Slybak]

Normal Person: Patriarchal modes of social hierarchy hurt men.

Redpiller: Fuck this man-hating feminist bullshit I'm gonna be a real alpha male and bottle up all my emotions and be a miserable asshole until I die of something stupid and preventable like war or heart disease.

[Bodakane]

Okay, you're just wrong. I don't know what else to say. All it takes is one simple injustice to disprove such a ridiculous absolute.

I'm not wrong...at all.

No one is really suffering hardships for being male. No one.

If a guy is shy and it makes his life hard, then he's suffering hardships for being shy, not for being male.

If a guy is different and it makes his life hard, then he's suffering hardships for being different, not for being male.

So on and so forth.

Women on the other hand, all have it hard, simply because they are women.

This is just more incel bullshit.

[Canpinter]

Mens greatest weakness is the illusion of strength. The downside of being a man becomes real apparent anytime you try to seek help or are powerless.

[Mistame]

So if a mother molests her son... Tell me how that is a problem caused by men?

If a woman falsely accuses a man of rape... How is that a problem caused by men?

If a woman rapes a student or rapes a man... How is that a problem caused by men?

Like actually go fuck yourself. I'm not an incel just because I don't think women are the SOLE victims in the world.

Just ignore him. Ignorance often manifests itself as self-righteousness

[Torto]

I'm not wrong...at all.

No one is really suffering hardships for being male. No one.

If a guy is shy and it makes his life hard, then he's suffering hardships for being shy, not for being male.

If a guy is different and it makes his life hard, then he's suffering hardships for being different, not for being male.

So on and so forth.

Women on the other hand, all have it hard, simply because they are women.

This is just more incel bullshit.

And people wonder why male feminists are creepy as fuck.

[Canpinter]

Yup, being physically stronger is also a detriment in a society that doesn't actually value physical strength very much. Just the idea that I "Could" beat someone in a fight, makes me less believable as the victim of violence.

add that to the societal view of male hyperagency and you have a culture where anything that happens to a man must be his fault in some way or he should be able to fix it.

[Torto]

Yup, being physically stronger is also a detriment in a society that doesn't actually value physical strength very much. Just the idea that I "Could" beat someone in a fight, makes me less believable as the victim of violence.

Yet they will still expect you to open jars and fix the plumbing.

[Mojo03]

And people wonder why male feminists are creepy as fuck.

I think he's saying men don't have to deal with things like periods and pregnancy, therefore don't innately suffer like women.

He's just a fu$#ing moron at saying it and in general.

[Bodakane]

So if a mother molests her son... Tell me how that is a problem caused by men?

If a woman falsely accuses a man of rape... How is that a problem caused by men?

If a woman rapes a student or rapes a man... How is that a problem caused by men?

Like actually go fuck yourself. I'm not an incel just because I don't think women are the SOLE victims in the world.

I say this seriously....WHAT THE HAIRY FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT THE HAIRY FUCK DO YOU THINK I SAID?

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And people wonder why male feminists are creepy as fuck.

Hahaha. Based on your avatar, I'm glad you don't agree with me.

[kyoloco]

Bill Burr had a great bit on this

[Bodakane]

Just ignore him. Ignorance often manifests itself as self-righteousness

Please, be specific, what was I ignorant about?

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Yup, being physically stronger is also a detriment in a society that doesn't actually value physical strength very much. Just the idea that I "Could" beat someone in a fight, makes me less believable as the victim of violence.

Hahahahahahahaha.

This is easily some of the stupidest shit I've ever read.

Being a strong man is hard because people aren't constantly praising my strength......jesus.

You couldn't last 35 minutes as a woman.

[kyoloco]

oh good people are just stroking themselves here now

yay...

[Bodakane]

oh good people are just stroking themselves here now

yay...

No, people are crying about things that aren't true because they are chauvinists who can't handle not being the center of everything including hardships.

[PACOX]

Both sexes have their unique challenges. Some are biological, some are societal. It doesn't excuse sexism.