Did Garrosh do anything wrong?

[Zulkhan]

That's the thing though, Garrosh didn't ally himself with the Heart

And yet the Mantid Paragons pretty much allied with him. Mind you, they didn't try to take the Heart back from Garrosh because he was abusing its power or damaging the remains of Y'shaarj in any way, they defended him from our assault. Once you've considered that the Mantid clearly didn't give a shit about Garrosh but were fervently loyal to the Old Gods, Garrosh's conviction to be the one "in control" becomes rather meaningless.

He does show you the visions he did to break you, but he himself has not changed in modus operandi

That's because he was doing what the Old God wanted. Y'shaarj, or whatever remained of it, wanted Garrosh to win, it tempted the orc's pride by saying that everything should have bowed before him and further motivated him by showing Garrosh the results of his "glorious destiny". Y'shaarj even mocked us by saying that we couldn't defeat Garrosh and our cause was hopeless. Honestly, there is absolutely no difference compared to the way Ner'zhul manipulated Arthas. And yes, before he picked Frostmourne and became a literal puppet, he was "in control" too.

What it would have lead to had he won, which was supremely unlikely given the forces arrayed against him we have no idea, so speculating is pretty pointless

We have a canon statement from the devs saying that Garrosh's True Horde would have reduced Azeroth into an hellish new Outland if they won.

[Super Dickmann]

Corruption or no, these aren't the words of someone with a level (or sane) head on their shoulders. Whether Garrosh became unhinged due to what was going on in his life, or if he always broken, or if the Sha/Old Gods worked to unhinge him is all up for debate - the point remains that when we confront him in the Underhold he is far beyond sanity.

Yet right afterwards he acts quite normal. That and while the latter sentiments are something new, the former aren't. He says very similar things when talking to Ishi after he's infused with the Divine Bell and he specifically casts the Sha as something to be mastered and the emotions they induce as trials that can be overcome and a power that can be used. This is even implied in his statement about seeing the visions of fear as he has, since he evidently doesn't believe he's trapped for eternity the way he expects you to be and as already said, Malkorok is fully in control of his faculties and doesn't change in rhetoric at all:

Garrosh Hellscream says: This is but a test of our strength. We will pass this trial, just as we have passed others!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Yes! Feel the power within you. Fight your fears. Conquer your hatred!
Garrosh Hellscream says: Fight the sha - master it! Use it!

And more specifically, he provides guidance on this:

Ishi says: Do you speak the truth, Garrosh? Can the Horde truly survive another war?
Garrosh Hellsceram says: Doubt is for the weak! Do not question your strength, Ishi. We will survive because we must! The Horde will prevail!

Ishi says: At night, I see the faces of all those I have slain. Where do our spirits go after our bodies lay cold? I fear... death.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Use your fear, Ishi! Turn it on your foes. When death arrives, will you stand and face it or kneel in defeat?

This is reflected in his raid dialogue. He expects you to be broken by these things, but he himself has overcome them and is thus able to use the Heart as a hammer, as the Devs state. The vision you see is one of the many possibilities the void presents and is patently impossible, such as finding all of the leaders pinned to the walls and slain or a renewed fleet that he didn't have at that point, when had he succeeded at Orgrimmar a number of those leaders would be already dead. It's a representation of what he wants - his Horde ruling the world using the Heart.

But more than that, we have proof that an empire can use the sha in a similar way to what Garrosh envisions and still remain itself, and that's with the mogu. The Korune mogu, much like Malkorok, while they are assholes, shown no signs of void corruption and Lei Shen himself aims to continue the titans' vision which is actually directed against the void's overall goals. Garrosh even explicitly invokes them as his model for governance and while you can lay many failures at the mogu, their ability to control the void isn't among them. Despite having this tool and using miniature variants like the sha containment box you find early on in the 5.1 questline they didn't succumb to an outside corruption but instead continued what they were doing anyway, but with a new tool in their arsenal.

Once you've considered that the Mantid clearly didn't give a shit about Garrosh but were fervently loyal to the Old Gods, Garrosh's conviction to be the one "in control" becomes rather meaningless.

Garrosh's own conviction of being in control isn't what's discussed here, it's the devs directly saying that he's in control and corruption past that point being conjecture. His conviction is the means by which he achieves that control and he states as much in his earlier dialogue.

We have a canon statement from the devs saying that Garrosh's True Horde would have reduced Azeroth into an hellish new Outland if they won.

Toss me the source and if it states that his use of the Heart is what causes this and I'll drop the argument regarding it not being worse than other void use. Even then, this would mean that he'd actually run counter to the aims of the Void Lords, because the strongest titan wouldn't be corrupted as the world would be destroyed. Garrosh is Orc Sargeras confirmed.

[Aucald]

Yet right afterwards he acts quite normal. That and while the latter sentiments are something new, the former aren't. He says very similar things when talking to Ishi after he's infused with the Divine Bell and he specifically casts the Sha as something to be mastered and the emotions they induce as trials that can be overcome and a power that can be used. This is even implied in his statement about seeing the visions of fear as he has, since he evidently doesn't believe he's trapped for eternity the way he expects you to be and as already said, Malkorok is fully in control of his faculties and doesn't change in rhetoric at all:

He really doesn't. During his trial in Pandaria he directly compares himself to Arthas, and later on in "Hellscream" he both deceives his own father to achieve his ends and is perfectly fine upending AU Draenor's destiny, killing the Elder Shaman Zhanak and hearkening back on his willingness to corrupt and destroy the Elements themselves. During the Divine Bell incident Garrosh is more or less himself, though his willingness to inflict Sha corruption on his own soldiers and have them rampaging around the Shrine is just what he does later on in the Underhold in micro. We're also not told what Malkorok's mental state is, really; he doesn't seem to be himself completely (somewhat expected due to the transformation he underwent) but neither does he sound mindless or feral.

This is reflected in his raid dialogue. He expects you to be broken by these things, but he himself has overcome them and is thus able to use the Heart as a hammer, as the Devs state. The vision you see is one of the many possibilities the void presents and is patently impossible, such as finding all of the leaders pinned to the walls and slain or a renewed fleet that he didn't have at that point, when had he succeeded at Orgrimmar a number of those leaders would be already dead. It's a representation of what he wants - his Horde ruling the world using the Heart.

I disagree - I think Garrosh is broken by the things he's seen and is simply unaware of it, his unawareness of his own compromised nature being the conduit through which the Old Gods would (and did) turn him into the engine of destruction they wanted him to be. I do agree that what he shows you is indeed a representation of what he wanted, the world he would rule through the use of the Heart's essence. That is still not a good thing - not for anyone, his own people included.

But more than that, we have proof that an empire can use the sha in a similar way to what Garrosh envisions and still remain itself, and that's with the mogu. The Korune mogu, much like Malkorok, while they are assholes, shown no signs of void corruption and Lei Shen himself aims to continue the titans' vision which is actually directed against them. Garrosh even explicitly invokes them as his model for governance and while you can lay many failures at the mogu, their ability to control the void isn't among them. Despite having this tool and using miniature variants like the sha containment box you find early on in the 5.1 questline they didn't succumb to an outside corruption but instead continued what they were doing anyway, but with a new tool in their arsenal.

And the Mogu are tyrannical slavers, indolent and arrogant, so much so that they lost their empire to their own slaves. The Mogu were also corrupted by the Curse of Flesh well before they began truck with Void or Old God energies directly - it is highly likely that they simply increased their degree of contamination even if they don't show signs of it directly. Given how the Mogu started it would be difficult to discern to what degree the Old God essence they used effected them - they were pretty much eaten up through and through with Pride already, and adding Violence, Anger, or Hatred to the mix would be equally difficult to discern. The Mogu may have been as corrupt as needed the first times we got to see them, making it impossible to gauge what they were like when they actually served Highkeeper Ra.

Garrosh's own conviction of being in control isn't what's discussed here, it's the devs directly saying that he's in control and corruption past that point being conjecture. His conviction is the means by which he achieves that control and he states as much in his earlier dialogue.

Toss me the source and if it states that his use of the Heart is what would have got them there I'll drop this line of argument.

Garrosh got crazier and more xenophobic after he brought the heart back to Org, influence of the old god. (Source)

Y'Shaarj was tweaking Garrosh's already emotionally-vulnerable state, tuning up his xenophobia, rage, pride, and doubts.

He wasn't corrupted or controlled, yes, but his personality flaws (e.g. xenophobia) certainly came out at 110%. (Source)

"Corruption" has many meanings, but in the case of the Old Gods it generally means being subjected to their control, e.g. mind-controlled to their cause. The Sha and Y'Shaarj never took control of Garrosh, never suborned his will, but they were working at him - whittling away at his emotional control. This was probably happening ever since he stepped foot on Pandaria and roused the slumbering and unconstrained Sha of Pride (the one that Shaohao failed to account for). You can easily see its effects of on him starting at his appearance during the Dominance arc and onward to SoO. Once he was actually taking in essence from the Heart he was basically lost - he had his own will, sure, but he was approaching psychosis. In WoD you see the result of this, when he is basically psychotic full-stop, so much so that he thinks invading Azeroth from AU Draenor can somehow secure him the victory he didn't get back in MoP (a fool's dream on the very face of it). He also, by his doings, indirectly sets up the Legion's third invasion of Azeroth. A final parting gift from a mad fool.

[Super Dickmann]

He really doesn't. During his trial in Pandaria he directly compares himself to Arthas, and later on in "Hellscream" he both deceives his own father to achieve his ends and is perfectly fine upending AU Draenor's destiny, killing the Elder Shaman Zhanak and hearkening back on his willingness to corrupt and destroy the Elements themselves.

I'm very skeptical as to the bits regarding his behaviour on AU Draenor. No matter how you slice it, the Iron Horde he creates is better than the Old Horde. They seamlessly carry over into the Mag'har, who also practice shamanism and call on the void incidentally, along with still having Grom in charge, practicing slavery and having purity be very important to them are essentially exactly what Garrosh sought to create. Allowing the future to pass as envisioned would require having Garrosh allow his father to drink demon blood and become a slave when he could stop it and in turn ensure the slavery of his own people to obey some ill-defined cosmic rule that somehow all the death and suffering that would follow is worth it because eventually Thrall would show up and settle their people in a desert to starve. Garrosh killing the shaman prevented any of this from taking place. He imprisoned Gul'dan, it's we who free Gul'dan instead of killing him. I can't view preventing the events that turned Draenor into Outland as being bad, just because that's how they were 'meant' to happen.

I disagree - I think Garrosh is broken by the things he's seen and is simply unaware of it, his unawareness of his own compromised nature being the conduit through which the Old Gods would (and did) turn him into the engine of destruction they wanted him to be. I do agree that what he shows you is indeed a representation of what he wanted, the world he would rule through the use of the Heart's essence. That is still not a good thing - not for anyone, his own people included.

I was not aware of those tweets before hand. While that bit with the warlocks is I think a desperate asspull to explain why he's fine with warlocks for one patch to show how evil he's supposed to be when he's slated people for execution for it in Cata, then reverts to form later on in Mists and WoD, we have to go with it. In that case, Garrosh wasn't playing with a full deck as regards some of his most questionable moves, such as the bits where he pulls Theramore survivors out of his ass and puts them on poles after presumably feeding and clothing them for a full year for no reason or the part where he uses trolls for target practice, which is a Kul Tiran trademark. While this is conductive to my overall point about Garrosh doing few things wrong, it does undermine the point about the Heart itself and their own statement over him being in control. In light of this, the case against the Heart gets better, even though I'm skeptical of your reading regarding the mogu themselves or how Garrosh himself sees things. I.e I firmly believe Garrosh views himself as in control and he is in the sense that he's not a cultist, he's ambiently having his worst qualities emphasized by the heart, while still pursuing his original goals. This would make the Heart equivalent to fel magic in corruption and make it a shittier trade-off than if he were actually in command. It also puts his militancy against the warlocks in a different light, since he may have subconsciously been removing a threat to the void he now used.

That said, I stand by the part about the mogu. Whatever their flaws, they were the flaws of people rather than cosmically induced by an outside force. They weren't bad through the use of the Bell or those sha boxes, they were bad before hand and hence devised them. These objects didn't change them in any meaningful sense and it didn't influence their toppling either. Also, because I forgot to address this earlier:

Add to this that he basically turns his back on everything that Mag'har held sacred (the Elements, the ancestors, honor, etc.) pretty much sums up a character lost in his own madness (his own, or one provided to him from elsewhere).

This I don't buy. One of my favorite touches about SoO is that the people closest to Garrosh in his sanctum and those who use the Sha powers the most are Mag'har, both the Kor'kron Reapers and Harbingers outside his room and the adds he brings in the fight proper. He also lectures Thrall on his lack of honor because he fails to do what Garrosh himself intends, i.e victory or death and conquest of the world as well as tolerance for warlocks and Alliance appeasement. He is, at that point and albeit in a pretty extreme way, the logical conclusion of all that being an orc entails, hence why the Mag'har follow him. They weren't against joining the First War-era Horde, they were just sick and unable to and pissed that they were made puppets. Given the chance to do the same thing for themselves, they leap at the opportunity. This carries over into the Mag'har we see in AU Draenor, who are essentially what Garrosh wanted for the orcs turned into their own sub-faction.

[Aucald]

I'm very skeptical as to the bits regarding his behaviour on AU Draenor. No matter how you slice it, the Iron Horde he creates is better than the Old Horde. They seamlessly carry over into the Mag'har, who also practice shamanism and call on the void incidentally, along with still having Grom in charge, practicing slavery and having purity be very important to them are essentially exactly what Garrosh sought to create. Allowing the future to pass as envisioned would require having Garrosh allow his father to drink demon blood and become a slave when he could stop it and in turn ensure the slavery of his own people to obey some ill-defined cosmic rule that somehow all the death and suffering that would follow is worth it because eventually Thrall would show up and settle their people in a desert to starve. Garrosh killing the shaman prevented any of this from taking place. He imprisoned Gul'dan, it's we who free Gul'dan instead of killing him. I can't view preventing the events that turned Draenor into Outland as being bad, just because that's how they were 'meant' to happen.

The Iron Horde he creates is a failure - failing to conquer Draenor, failing to conquer Azeroth, it is swiftly and wholly overtaken from within by Gul'dan in a span of months. The AU Mag'har are a questionable improvement of the Iron Horde from Grom's leadership having seen evidence of the Legion corruption. The only measurable good Garrosh did in Draenor was to prevent Grom from being initially corrupted by taking in Mannoroth's blood - that is pretty much it. His warmongering against the Draenei, driving Ner'zhul to embrace the Dark Star and the Void, and everything else that led to the rise of the second Fel Horde is just error compounded by error. He does temporarily imprison Gul'dan, but he doesn't kill him, instead using him and the other Shadow Council leaders as batteries to open the Dark Portal and invade Azeroth (which leads to his subsequent escape and usurpation of the Iron Horde). Garrosh *knew* how dangerous Gul'dan was and yet allows him to live, a product of his own overweening and overblown pride. It is also Garrosh who introduces the Warsong Shaman to Dark Shamanism (in emulation of his Kor'kron Dark Shaman in SoO), further showing his blatant disregard for the sacredness of the Elements, going back on Orcish tradition of old.

I was not aware of those tweets before hand, so while that bit with the warlocks is I think a desperate asspull to explain why he's fine with warlocks for one patch to show how evil he's supposed to be when he's slated people for execution for it in Cata, then reverts to form later on in Mists and WoD we have to go with it. In that case, Garrosh wasn't playing with a full deck as regards some of his most questionable moves, such as the bits where he pulls Theramore survivors out of his ass and puts them on poles after presumably feeding and clothing them for a full year for no reason or the part where he uses goblins for target practice, which is a Kul Tiran trademark. While this is conductive to my overall point about Garrosh doing few things wrong, it does undermine the point about the Heart itself and their own statement over him being in control. In light of this, the case against the Heart gets better, even though I'm skeptical of your reading regarding the mogu themselves or how Garrosh himself sees things. I.e I firmly believe Garrosh views himself as in control and he is in the sense that he's not a cultist, he's ambiently having his worst qualities emphasized by the heart, while still pursuing his original goals. This would make the Heart equivalent to fel magic in corruption and make it a shittier trade-off than if he were actually in command. It also puts his militancy against the warlocks in a different light, since he may have subconsciously been removing a threat to the void he now used.

I agree he's not a cultist of the Old Gods or the Void, but as was said earlier he's pretty much just as good as. The Mantid Klaxxi, high priests of the Old God Y'Shaarj from time immemorial, are quite literally camped right outside his throne room and also quite obviously present by his leave. Garrosh is so far gone by this point he's done everything but declare himself the reincarnation of Y'Shaarj, going on to assume a bloated and monstrous form by using its essence during the fight (which he still bears the scars of, physically and probably mentally as well). Garrosh might thinking himself in complete control all day long, the reality of his plight is altogether different - and what is presented to us doesn't really skimp on the detail. What we observe going on down in the Underhold would make Gul'dan giddy to see, it almost perfectly epitomizes the vision he was looking for in the days before the First War.

That said, I stand by the part about the mogu. Whatever their flaws, they were the flaws of people rather than cosmically induced by an outside force. They weren't bad through the use of the Bell or those sha boxes, they were bad before hand and hence devised them. These objects didn't change them in any meaningful sense and it didn't influence their toppling either.

What part about the Mogu do you mean to stand by? Garrosh wanted his reign to emulate that of the Mogu he knew and understood, vicious tyrants and slavers who believed in the power of strength of arm alone and who were undercut and deposed by their subjects due to their indolence and arrogance? Whether or not the Mogu were corrupted by the Old Gods is somewhat besides the point - Garrosh doesn't want to emulate the Mogu of Highkeeper Ra who fought against the armies of the Black Empire, he wanted to emulate those who ruled Pandaria of old, the tyrannical slavers of Pandaren myth. Again, no matter how you slice it, this doesn't speak well of Garrosh or his intentions - the Mogu are at no point presented as something anyone with an ounce of enlightenment, morality, or conscience would want to emulate. And of course he succeeded in his wildest dreams in emulating their basic narrative arc - he gained power, turned nearly everyone who served him against him, and was deposed and sent into exile. That, at least, he performed perfectly well in.

[Zulkhan]

Garrosh's own conviction of being in control isn't what's discussed here, it's the devs directly saying that he's in control and corruption past that point being conjecture. His conviction is the means by which he achieves that control and he states as much in his earlier dialogue.

Which is, again, meaningless. Garrosh was an embodiment of all the infamous negative feelings paraded by the Sha (and so by Y'shaarj) with pride topping all of them and the residual essence of the Old God tempting that trait, which was the number #1 acknowledged flaw of Garrosh. Garrosh was doing what the Old God wanted and didn't need to be corrupted because his emotions were utterly out of control at that point, with this emotional instability blatantly reaching peaks of borderline insanity the more Garrosh absorbed power from the Heart, proved by the increasing lunacy of his quotes. In fact, the act to recklessly bath into a power beyond Garrosh's comprehension out of desperation is literally paralleled to Grom's decision to drink the demon blood for the pretty much the same reason:

As Garrosh wields the power of Y’Shaarj—origin of all the sha—players must battle through some of the most memorable locations where the sha manifested in Pandaria. At the end, when his back is up against a wall and he is cornered in his own lair, Garrosh ends up facing the same sort of choice that once doomed his father.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/10843676

Garrosh was championing the cause of an Old God, whether he was aware of that or not is irrelevant. The Klaxxi Paragons defended Garrosh because they worshipped Y'shaarj and Y'shaarj clearly wanted Garrosh to succeed, because the Orc's actions were guided by all those negative emotions that are the very essence of Y'shaarj and among those feelings pride was, again, topping all of them, the fundamental obsession that made Garrosh willing to bend everyone and everything to his will (as "suggested" by Y'shaarj himself) no matter the cost and no matter how much destruction and damage he had to cause in his senseless campaign.

Toss me the source and if it states that his use of the Heart is what causes this and I'll drop the argument regarding it not being worse than other void use

I say it's pretty self-evident:

Garrosh Hellscream's reckless thirst for power has led him to do the unthinkable: from beneath the Vale of Eternal Blossoms, he has seized the desiccated heart of an Old God to use as a tool of war, unleashing horrors upon the sacred valley. The brazen warchief has also turned against other members of the Horde to create a purely orcish force of his own. Now this "true Horde" is amassing strength within Orgrimmar's iron ramparts. With Garrosh bent on total victory, he plans to demonstrate the potency of the true Horde by conquering not just the Alliance but the whole of Azeroth.

It is up to you to purify the vale and bring Garrosh to justice. Should you fail, the frenzied legions of his true Horde will raze all you have ever known and mutate Azeroth into a hellish new Outland.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Siege_of_Orgrimmar_(instance)

The pattern is clear, since such a cataclysmic amount of destruction could only be caused by a weapon powerful enough to justify it and the Heart of Y'shaarj is the main focus here, as it was for most of the raid. This means that either Garrosh and his lackeys were going to eventually fall under the control of Y'shaarj and ended up destryoing everything because of that, or they ended up destroying everything because they were going to lose control over that weapon and the amount of corruption and ruin it could cause to the lands they conquered. Either way, events were going to play in the Old God's favor and Garrosh was going to be a pawn.

Even then, this would mean that he'd actually run counter to the aims of the Void Lords, because the strongest titan wouldn't be corrupted as the world would be destroyed. Garrosh is Orc Sargeras confirmed.

The Old Gods literally planned to used Deathwing as a flying atomic bomb to shatter Azeroth for good and also intended, during the War of the Ancients, to have Sargeras successfully entering into the physical realm to wreck Azeroth (convinced that they would have brought Sargeras under their control later) so they definitely love that kind of cataclysmic destruction to further their own goals.

[Super Dickmann]

The Iron Horde he creates is a failure - failing to conquer Draenor, failing to conquer Azeroth, it is swiftly and wholly overtaken from within by Gul'dan in a span of months. The AU Mag'har are a questionable improvement of the Iron Horde from Grom's leadership having seen evidence of the Legion corruption. The only measurable good Garrosh did in Draenor was to prevent Grom from being initially corrupted by taking in Mannoroth's blood - that is pretty much it. His warmongering against the Draenei, driving Ner'zhul to embrace the Dark Star and the Void, and everything else that led to the rise of the second Fel Horde is just error compounded by error. He does temporarily imprison Gul'dan, but he doesn't kill him, instead using him and the other Shadow Council leaders as batteries to open the Dark Portal and invade Azeroth (which leads to his subsequent escape and usurpation of the Iron Horde). Garrosh *knew* how dangerous Gul'dan was and yet allows him to live, a product of his own overweening and overblown pride. It is also Garrosh who introduces the Warsong Shaman to Dark Shamanism (in emulation of his Kor'kron Dark Shaman in SoO), further showing his blatant disregard for the sacredness of the Elements, going back on Orcish tradition of old.

There's no situation wherein Garrosh standing by and letting the Old Horde form again and his father fall to the corruption that would eventually destroy him is a better choice. The only fault in his Iron Horde, and it is a foundational one you point out, is that it was ultimately a means to an end for him to prove a point to those left over in Azeroth at the expense of a lot of lives. But the Iron Horde's core culture and conceit is completely compatible with the present Horde with next to no modifications from what Garrosh helped Grom create. Garrosh intervening in his people becoming slaves to the demons gave them a new lease on life that they eventually get into the MU Horde with. Given the alternative is them going on a rampage and destroying everyone else, then themselves, it's a pretty significant improvement. He left all the tribal and clan identities intact and I'm not even convinced Warsong Dark Shamanism is his kind. There's no void aesthetic to what Garrosh does. It looks to have more to do with channeling the elements through Decay instead of Spirit, hence also its effect on the world. It leaves the land screwed, but it does not bring in void creatures the way the void shamanism of the Warsong seems to. Even then, it's extremely mild compared to both factions.

)Garrosh might thinking himself in complete control all day long, the reality of his plight is altogether different - and what is presented to us doesn't really skimp on the detail. What we observe going on down in the Underhold would make Gul'dan giddy to see, it almost perfectly epitomizes the vision he was looking for in the days before the First War.

One thing you cant' say about Garrosh's people is that they didn't go in out of a genuine belief in what they were doing. Garrosh at no point tricked them, he was direct throughout on what he was going to do and what he was going to do with it. We know from his internal monologues in both Heart of War and Hellscream that he does genuinely believe in his credo. Gul'dan by contrast is motivated solely by personal power and enslaved the Horde to that end. Garrosh continued doing what he was doing anyway of his own volition, as did his followers.

This along with my point on the mogu relates not so much to their moral qualities but rather the fact that they were free agents. They chose to do what they set out to do, they weren't tricked or corrupted by the powers they used. The mogu show that a civilization can use these powers to the aims they set out with, without succumbing to them and overtly or covertly enforcing the agenda of the void. The True Horde falls under the same category. That's why I pointed out in my post that using the Heart in and of itself does not comprise any uniquely evil or corruptive act. Given the sources @Zulkhan drops later on, that point gets a deal more questionable, since Blizzard themselves can't seem to decide whether Garrosh was acting on his own or as a proxy for Y'shaarj or not. Specifically, there's this bit:

The Old Gods literally planned to used Deathwing as a flying atomic bomb to shatter Azeroth for good and also intended, during the War of the Ancients, to have Sargeras successfully entering into the physical realm to wreck Azeroth (convinced that they would have brought Sargeras under their control later) so they definitely love that kind of cataclysmic destruction to further their own goals.

The bit with Sargeras was cut in Chronicle I'm fairly sure because the change in power levels. As for Deathwing, whatever the deal is with that, it's not the true End Time, which is by now heavily implied to be the Void Titan showing up. A destroyed or barren world is also a world wherein the Old Gods can't metastasize. In that sense, a new Outland wouldn't do them much good. In any case though, that's mostly semantics, since either outcome isn't desirable, hence why I explicitly didn't defend the use of dark shamanism in my previous post.

[Aucald]

There's no situation wherein Garrosh standing by and letting the Old Horde form again and his father fall to the corruption that would eventually destroy him is a better choice. The only fault in his Iron Horde, and it is a foundational one you point out, is that it was ultimately a means to an end for him to prove a point to those left over in Azeroth at the expense of a lot of lives. But the Iron Horde's core culture and conceit is completely compatible with the present Horde with next to no modifications from what Garrosh helped Grom create. Garrosh intervening in his people becoming slaves to the demons gave them a new lease on life that they eventually get into the MU Horde with. Given the alternative is them going on a rampage and destroying everyone else, then themselves, it's a pretty significant improvement. He left all the tribal and clan identities intact and I'm not even convinced Warsong Dark Shamanism is his kind. There's no void aesthetic to what Garrosh does. It looks to have more to do with channeling the elements through Decay instead of Spirit, hence also its effect on the world. It leaves the land screwed, but it does not bring in void creatures the way the void shamanism of the Warsong seems to. Even then, it's extremely mild compared to both factions.

We actually don't know what AU Draenor's story would've been like absent Garrosh's meddling - it seems like it was on track to repeat what happened with MU Draenor/Outland, but it was a fundamentally different world with different personalities at play, so it is possible that things could've played out considerably differently. Ner'zhul had Rulkan in this continuity, meaning he would not have been easy prey for Kil'jaeden or Gul'dan's machinations. Grommash had lost his mate early on, making his personality different from MU Grom's, and he also had no child in the AU reality. We can't assume that things would be a 1:1 copy of what happened in the MU continuity, because there's really no way to know that. It's an unknown unknown at this point, we can just speculate - and since Garrosh overthrew whatever the AU continuity's fate might've been we don't have a stable basis on which to even do that, really.

As for the Void, if you're referring to the use of Dark Shaman totems in Nagrand during WoD then yes, it is definitely Void-related magic. In the quest "Silence the Call" the elemental spirits of of Nagrand tell the PC that the Dark Shaman of the Warsong (currently under the command of Garrosh) that "in their lust for dominance," they "have turned to the darkness of the void for power." This strong implies that Garrosh is the one who introduced Void magic to the Warsong in AU Draenor, which is fitting given his flirtation with the essence of an Old God back in SoO.

One thing you cant' say about Garrosh's people is that they didn't go in out of a genuine belief in what they were doing. Garrosh at no point tricked them, he was direct throughout on what he was going to do and what he was going to do with it. We know from his internal monologues in both Heart of War and Hellscream that he does genuinely believe in his credo. Gul'dan by contrast is motivated solely by personal power and enslaved the Horde to that end. Garrosh continued doing what he was doing anyway of his own volition, as did his followers.

He tricks him in "Hellscream," not allowing him to see the entirety of the images from the Vision of Time precisely because it would reveal his own complicity. He kills the Elder Shaman Zhanak precisely because the shaman is further along in seeing said visions than Grom was, and he couldn't allow for the information to be known. Garrosh lies lengthily by omitting specific details, only telling Grom what he needs to know, and that suitably sculpted to his own specific agenda. The only real difference between Garrosh and Gul'dan is that Gul'dan is honest about his own powerlust, approaching it from the angle of sociopathic narcissism. Garrosh is more delusional in that he thinks him being in power is the secret to peace and prosperity for the Orcs, but in his secret heart he only wishes to rule and have power. The fact that his defeat almost completely unhinges his sanity (again) is adequate proof of that.

This along with my point on the mogu relates not so much to their moral qualities but rather the fact that they were free agents. They chose to do what they set out to do, they weren't tricked or corrupted by the powers they used. The mogu show that a civilization can use these powers to the aims they set out with, without succumbing to them and overtly or covertly enforcing the agenda of the void. The True Horde falls under the same category. That's why I pointed out in my post that using the Heart in and of itself does not comprise any uniquely evil or corruptive act.

The Mogu (after contracting the Curse of Flesh) were always presented as base and evil, their civilization propped up only by their brutal oppression and further creation of slave races. I would argue the Mogu didn't succumb to the powers of the Sha they wielded for the same reason Garrosh wasn't enslaved by the power of the Old God he was wielding, they were already twisted enough and the perfect tools for the spread of the Sha/Old God's aims without having to be corrupted or dominated. The Mogu spread misery by existing - they enshrined Hatred and Violence, were ruled by unchecked Anger, eaten through and through by Pride, and spread Fear, Despair, and Doubt across the lands. They were the best friends the Sha could've ever had, and Garrosh is a page out of the selfsame book.

Given the sources Zulkhan drops later on, that point gets a deal more questionable, since Blizzard themselves can't seem to decide whether Garrosh was acting on his own or as a proxy for Y'shaarj or not. Specifically, there's this bit:

The Old Gods literally planned to used Deathwing as a flying atomic bomb to shatter Azeroth for good and also intended, during the War of the Ancients, to have Sargeras successfully entering into the physical realm to wreck Azeroth (convinced that they would have brought Sargeras under their control later) so they definitely love that kind of cataclysmic destruction to further their own goals.

The bit with Sargeras was cut in Chronicle I'm fairly sure because the change in power levels. As for Deathwing, whatever the deal is with that, it's not the true End Time, which is by now heavily implied to be the Void Titan showing up. A destroyed or barren world is also a world wherein the Old Gods can't metastasize. In that sense, a new Outland wouldn't do them much good. In any case though, that's mostly semantics, since either outcome isn't desirable, hence why I explicitly didn't defend the use of dark shamanism in my previous post.

I'm not quite sure how these two arguments fit together? In the original "War of the Ancients" trilogy the Old Gods' plan was to use the portal energies from the attempt to summon Sargeras as a means to break their own prisons - they didn't want Sargeras to arrive, per se, they just wanted to redirect the massive power being used by the Dragon Soul and the Highborne sorcerers in conjunction with the Well for their own purposes. They rebuke Deathwing when he tries to reclaim the Dragon Soul too soon, forcibly pushing him back and preventing him from retaking the coveted artifact. When this failed due to the presence of the Ancient Night Elven defenders and their allies the Old Gods' changed their stratagem and held Deathwing in reserve to enact the Hour of Twilight later on, a new plot that would hopefully lead to their freedom. I don't really know how this intersects with Dark Shamanism.

[Trassk]

This is the problem with this kind of fandom, it's almost on a religious level of cognitive dissonance.

Having characters who are bad guys and you like them because their bad guys is fine, so long as you know their bad guys.

Seeing characters who are bad guys but you deny them as being so in an attempt to justify you liking them is denying the facts of that character on a moral level.

This is what sylvanas is doing right now, and her fans rather then just saying "oh yeah I know she's a bad guy I accept the fact she isn't, they go out of their way to break down everything else around the character in an effort to deny their fav character is now on the chopping block for doing bad things.

You can't twist morality to suit you just because you like a character, your see Christians try and do this with the awful shit written in the Bible about God, like him killing children or innocent people or allowing women to be taped because he willed it, Christians try to convince themselves it's just because 'its okay since god did it and he's always right'. Yet if you did what happens in that book in the real world claiming 'its god's will why I killed those people', your be seen as a lunatic and monster.

You cannot just change moral rules to suit your fandom and expect there to be no consequences.

[Timester]

Garrosh sprearheaded the Horde into retard fights and not happy with the loses, implemented a supremacist Gestapo regime within the Horde.

[vipers]

he earned the respect after being successful in the war against the lich king, from all the people of the horde, thats why thrall put him in charge

So what did Garrosh do there exactly unlike Saurfang who actually help me on quest

[Wildberry]

So what did Garrosh do there exactly unlike Saurfang who actually help me on quest

Led the entire campaign and won. Something even Saurfang pointed out. It's not like this has been pointed out countless times in this thread or anything.

For a soldier of the Horde, loss is absolute. Loss means death and there is no negotiation or interpretation with death. One can only hope that the manner of their death was honorable.

But victory... Victory can mean many things. As you have probably noticed, the Kor'kron are there in full force. The Warchief has sent his elite guard to help secure victory in Northrend. They, along with you and other heroes, are pushing the Lich King and his forces towards an inevitable conclusion. With each challenge you overcome, we are one step closer to ridding our world of Arthas and the Scourge.

And therein lays the dilemma. For you see, our forces in Northrend work under the auspices of young Hellscream. Each victory bolsters the morale of the Horde forces here, which carries through to the rest of Azeroth.

It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods, which in turn brings us closer to a place we have not been in many years: a dark place.

--"Letter From Saurfang"

And yet, Cairne Could not argue with Garrosh's success and popularity, nor the joyful zeal and passion with which the Horde responded to him...

there was no denying the fact that he had led incursions that had been unqualified successes. He had brought back to the Horde a fierce sense of pride and fire for battle. He had managed, every time, to turn what looked like lunacy into a rousing success.

Cairne was too intelligent to dismiss this as coincidence or accident. So bold he could be called reckless Garrosh might be, but recklessness did not yield the results that Grom's son had gotten. Garrosh had been exactly what the Horde needed at what was arguably its darkest, most vulnerable hour, and Cairne was willing to give the boy that.

--The Shattering, p12-3

Garrosh screwed over all the non-Orc races in the Horde.
He didn't give a fuck about people unless they were Orcs.

It's why they joined together to overthrow him.

Weird, he stopped giving a shit about non-Orcs after they proved to be increasingly traitorous and problematic. Who could've seen that coming?

Don't worry though, Garrosh's racism caused their treason, it's not like every time we get a peak into Garrosh's head, we actually see his "prejudice" is caused by treachery or failure.

[Super Dickmann]

It's an unknown unknown at this point, we can just speculate - and since Garrosh overthrew whatever the AU continuity's fate might've been we don't have a stable basis on which to even do that, really.

There's a very heavy implication that the AU would have proceeded along the lines of the main universe. And there's a flat out fact that the Shaman found this to be viable. That what happened in the MU should be allowed to happen because it eventually lead to Thrall. Which gets us to the question of why? Why would allowing this to happen be desirable?

The Old Horde fucked over its entire world and essentially destroyed every other race on it, along with breaking it apart later on. It inflicted massive casualties to the human kingdoms as well and sacked Stormwind. And most importantly for any orc, it left the orcs splintered and their vast majority in internment camps. Yet the shaman's view is that this is fine, because eventually Thrall would take over and settle their people in a desert to starve and rely on handouts from another race before abdicating and leaving a leader to institute the same thing that Garrosh is suggesting now, except with a much smaller population, decades of trauma and far less land on another planet. Garrosh was right to kill him and prevent all this and the Mag'har, the eventual product of this, which again, underwent no change from when they were the Iron Horde, were perfectly compatible with the modern Horde and in fact more principled than a significant portion of races, proving that none of the tribulations leading up to this 'redemption' were required for the orcs to set on a better path and thus proving the shaman wrong.

My points regarding motivation are about the True Horde doing what they do of their own free will and not requiring tricking. Garrosh did kill the shaman and trick Grom into doing what he did, but I'm hard-pressed finding this worse than the alternative and we know that it was just as much personal animus but a genuine desire to make his dad a hero and his people better that drove him, per the Hellscream short story.

As for the Void, if you're referring to the use of Dark Shaman totems in Nagrand during WoD then yes, it is definitely Void-related magic. In the quest "Silence the Call" the elemental spirits of of Nagrand tell the PC that the Dark Shaman of the Warsong (currently under the command of Garrosh) that "in their lust for dominance," they "have turned to the darkness of the void for power." This strong implies that Garrosh is the one who introduced Void magic to the Warsong in AU Draenor, which is fitting given his flirtation with the essence of an Old God back in SoO.

The Nagrand stuff is void related, Garrosh's shamans in the MU either channeled through decay rather than spirit per the cosmology chart or they did something akin to the taunka in forcing the elements into compliance. It's pretty vague. We have no idea how void magic spread across the Warsong, but even if we accept Garrrosh's role in it, that still puts us right where we started in terms of this being morally equivalent or less to what the factions are doing.

The Mogu spread misery by existing - they enshrined Hatred and Violence, were ruled by unchecked Anger, eaten through and through by Pride, and spread Fear, Despair, and Doubt across the lands. They were the best friends the Sha could've ever had, and Garrosh is a page out of the selfsame book.

I think we're moving a bit apart on here on what we assume the Sha's effects are. The sha by default are self-destructive and immediate. The shas of Hatred and Violence for example have the yaungol turn against one another, fear has the mantid queen lose her mind and destroy her entire race and so on. The mogu and in turn the True Horde's faults were their own. They may have exhibited these characteristics, but they were at a human level.

I'm not quite sure how these two arguments fit together?

They were separate points. One was saying that the Old Gods wanting to bring in Sargeras was retconned. The other is that we now know that the End Time is not the real end of things, the Dark Titan is that. It ties together with dark shamanism because dark shamanism can also produce a second Cataclysm (somehow) and destroy the world, but this doesn't fulfill the goals of the void. It's bad, but it's bad in a different way and mostly unimportant to what we're discussing.

[Aucald]

There's a very heavy implication that the AU would have proceeded along the lines of the main universe. And there's a flat out fact that the Shaman found this to be viable. That what happened in the MU should be allowed to happen because it eventually lead to Thrall. Which gets us to the question of why? Why would allowing this to happen be desirable?

What the Shaman was seeing was what happened in the MU, as shown by the Vision of Time - I'm sure it looked quite viable, it *did* happen after all, albeit in another continuity of events. I'm also pretty sure the AU Draenor would've followed in MU Draenor's footsteps, though; I'm just saying that we're speculating on the back of an ever-shifting spectrum where nothing is quite stable. As for it being desirable - well, in the micro sense it isn't, except that if it *doesn't* happen then when the Legion invades the Azeroth of that continuity, the Horde will not be present to aid the Humans and Night Elves in the Third War, which could lead to Sargeras securing and corrupting the World-Soul of Azeroth and consuming their entire universe. As the previous Cavern of Time instances are at pains to point out, deviation from the events that occur in the timeway, even those that lead to terrible short-term circumstances (such as Medivh's opening of the Dark Portal) can lead to catastrophic consequences later on. Garrosh's manipulation of AU Draenor's timeline is very likely the reason why the world is found to be dying and torn apart by war when we re-visit it during the Mag'har recruitment quests.

The Old Horde fucked over its entire world and essentially destroyed every other race on it, along with breaking it apart later on. It inflicted massive casualties to the human kingdoms as well and sacked Stormwind. And most importantly for any orc, it left the orcs splintered and their vast majority in internment camps. Yet the shaman's view is that this is fine, because eventually Thrall would take over and settle their people in a desert to starve and rely on handouts from another race before abdicating and leaving a leader to institute the same thing that Garrosh is suggesting now, except with a much smaller population, decades of trauma and far less land on another planet. Garrosh was right to kill him and prevent all this and the Mag'har, the eventual product of this, which again, underwent no change from when they were the Iron Horde, were perfectly compatible with the modern Horde and in fact more principled than a significant portion of races, proving that none of the tribulations leading up to this 'redemption' were required for the orcs to set on a better path and thus proving the shaman wrong.

As I said above, the Horde's presence on Azeroth is a key component to their success in the Third War against the Legion - stopping Sargeras from claiming the prize of the Azeroth World-Soul and most likely leading to the destructive of the known universe. A series of unfortunate outcomes have to come to pass to maneuver the pieces where they must be to ensure the world is preserved in the longer term. There's also the unknown quality as to whether the Mag'har of AU Draenor will prove to be compatible with the Horde of Azeroth - this seems like an assumption, as theirs is a story still in the early days of being told.

My points regarding motivation are about the True Horde doing what they do of their own free will and not requiring tricking. Garrosh did kill the shaman and trick Grom into doing what he did, but I'm hard-pressed finding this worse than the alternative and we know that it was just as much personal animus but a genuine desire to make his dad a hero and his people better that drove him, per the Hellscream short story.

Garrosh knew what it meant for the Horde to come to Azeroth - he knew what the Horde did in the Third War, with its repercussions that went beyond just the one world saved from the flames. Garrosh knew all this, he heard the histories and the accounts of the veterans such as Saurfang, and still he acted out of petulant childishness and overblown pride to achieve what *he* wanted. I read no altruism in Garrosh's actions on AU Draenor, even in sparing the Draenor Clans from the machinations of Gul'dan (which he still fails to do as the Fel Horde comes to pass in the end, albeit in a different form). He indirectly doomed AU Draenor to the fate we find it in during the Mag'har recruitment as well - as it is his upheaval of that world's fate that brought it to the brink it now lies at. Neither of the two outcomes are really stellar, and YMMV as to whether the fate of MU Draenor as Outland or AU Draenor as a wasteland on the verge of collapse is really the better of the two outcomes.

The Nagrand stuff is void related, Garrosh's shamans in the MU either channeled through decay rather than spirit per the cosmology chart or they did something akin to the taunka in forcing the elements into compliance. It's pretty vague. We have no idea how void magic spread across the Warsong, but even if we accept Garrrosh's role in it, that still puts us right where we started in terms of this being morally equivalent or less to what the factions are doing.

I don't think there is a moral or relative equivalency here - no one really said what the factions were doing was good or beneficial in any case. But I think it's a pretty easy chain of events to follow from Garrosh dabbling with Dark Shamanism, then the Void directly, then coming to AU Draenor and taking over as chieftain of the Warsong and later finding that they are now dabbling in Dark Shamanism and the Void. Garrosh has no love or reverence for the Elements, after all; he seems them as weapons, tools, or slaves for achieving his goals.

I think we're moving a bit apart on here on what we assume the Sha's effects are. The sha by default are self-destructive and immediate. The shas of Hatred and Violence for example have the yaungol turn against one another, fear has the mantid queen lose her mind and destroy her entire race and so on. The mogu and in turn the True Horde's faults were their own. They may have exhibited these characteristics, but they were at a human level.

The Sha are both immediate and insidious - their influence can be gross and subtle. The Alliance and Horde commanders in the Jade Forest are slowly twisted over the course of weeks just from the latent presence of the Sha stirred up by their own heightened emotions, but at the end of they are nearly completely hollowed-out and mad with influence of Doubt. It's the emotions of nearby sentient beings that rouse the Sha, which is why Pandaren culture has put a premium on mores and folkways that tamp down emotional displays and emphasize calm, contemplation, and serenity. We don't really know enough of the Mogu history to know if they were or weren't effected by Y'Shaarj's final curse upon the land they resided in - but given that it can effect every other sentient being we know of, and the Mogu aren't particularly special in terms of their mental fortitude, it stands to reason they were likely effected as well. Similar to the True Horde - we know the Sha or Old God energies effected Garrosh pretty significantly, so who is to say the True Horde soldiers residing in Orgrimmar alongside and nearby the heart of an Old God aren't also effected. They do certainly seem more cruel, hateful, and outright crazed then your garden-variety Orcs to say the least.

They were separate points. One was saying that the Old Gods wanting to bring in Sargeras was retconned. The other is that we now know that the End Time is not the real end of things, the Dark Titan is that. It ties together with dark shamanism because dark shamanism can also produce a second Cataclysm (somehow) and destroy the world, but this doesn't fulfill the goals of the void. It's bad, but it's bad in a different way and mostly unimportant to what we're discussing.

We don't really know what the true End Time is, we can only infer and speculate as to what Murozond/Nozdormu meant. I don't think Dark Shamanism itself can bring about a second Cataclysm, but coating the Elemental spirits of Azeroth in Decay and Void energies is probably going to be deleterious to the World-Soul's well-being regardless of ultimate effect.

[Wildberry]

And of course wrong as ever.

Is that why you stop responding every time I prove you wrong?

The Forsaken weren't a problem when he sent them against Gilneas.

The Forsaken weren't used as meat shields or anything of the sort, Garrosh used them where it made sense:

You're referring to a cherry picked a single line from "Edge of Night," divorced from all context.

"The door is wedged open; now it must be kicked down. This is what your kind is good for."

--"Edge of Night," p2

Alone, that's pretty damning. Fortunately, that's not the entirety of the statement, and you'd have to be extremely disingenuous to try and construct a point from that alone. Garrosh continues and says:

"You're already corpses, nearly impossible to kill..."

--"Edge of Night," p2

This is in conjunction with a passage from earlier in the story which reads:

"Forwar—" the marshal cried, his command cut short as a musketball shattered his lower jaw. ... The marshal toppled over, careening down a pile of rubble like a sack of cordwood, coming to rest in the thick mud below. ... Any normal man would've been dead for sure, but being that the marshal was already dead, he soon clawed his way up from the mud, spitting coagulated blood and ichor from the remains of his face.

--"Edge of Night," p2

For a scenario like breaching the Greymane Wall, the Forsaken are extremely useful, since shots that would kill the living only slow them down. That's not using them as fodder, that's using them where it makes sense to do so.

The Blood Elves weren't a problem when he sent them to Kun-Lai.

Lor'themar had already disobeyed direct orders from Garrosh by the time Kun-Lai happened. Beyond that, Blood Elves had participated in numerous subversive meetings in which participants fantasized about ousting Garrosh prior to Kun-Lai as well.

Beyond that, nothing scandalous happened in Kun-Lai, other than Lor'themar's inability to send guards to accompany his people during an incursion into a hostile, and unknown land. This was a mission he had control over. The failure is his.

The guy fucked everyone over and he's dead now. Deal with it.

I'd refrain from lines like this considering we all know who's next on the chopping block

>inb4 "b-but they said it wouldn't be Garrosh 2.0!"
They lied. Unless you want to find a way to reconcile that with:
-Them stating that Teldrassil was going to be a "twist."
-Them stating that Sylvanas is going to have a "reckoning" during Blizzcon 2013/4
-Them stating that Sylvanas is going to make Garrosh look like an amateur (Read: She'll be worse by your count)
-Them referring to Sylvanas' plans as "evil."

Buckle up, because even though you're going to ignore all of this, you should at least start preparing yourself for the grief.

[Wildberry]

I stop responding because you are so utterly wrong and too stubborn to actually admit it.

Real great rebuttal. You know, if I were so utterly wrong, there'd be a plethora of quotes you could pick at ease to prove me as such.

[Wildberry]

Aah yes, cause I haven't been doing that for years.. As if that is going to change anything.

You actually haven't. I know it's fun to pretend a snarky one liner once every two or so years counts, but it doesn't.

[vipers]

Led the entire campaign and one. Something even Saurfang pointed out. It's not like this has been pointed out countless times in this thread or anything.

I did see Tirion Fording attack but not Garrosh doing anything other than looks like taking credits from other people doing

[Wildberry]

I did see Tirion Fording attack but not Garrosh doing anything other than looks like taking credits from other people doing

Okay, what you saw or didn't see really doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the quoted text is canon. Garrosh is referred to as personally leading in assaults, depicted in battle in short stories, and beyond that, he's the one in charge of the Horde's War Effort in Northrend, so even if he never fought a battle (Which we know is false), he'd still get credit, because he planned the entire campaign on the Horde's end.