The problem is raiding

[Queen of Hamsters]

"Hmm, what can I pull out of my ass to pretend that the game is struggling despite having zero access to any facts and figures on the subject... I KNOW!!!"

Give me a break. Nobody on these forums knows jack shit about what the game needs, if it's struggling or what can be done if it were. They just got their own biased feels. Same as myself, which is why I don't play other than when necessary right now. And still my servers have queues at times, are listed as full and the zones are packed. The world (fictional and real) doesn't start and stop with one person's feels.

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The problem is WoW lost what make it great to start with long ago, yes.

Please do share what it lost that "made it great", since you have insight, then we can bottle it and get rich selling it.
Or perhaps "what makes it great" is inherently subjective and the game never ever had a time where it wasn't tried and dismissed by thousands of people on a daily basis. Never more than 12 million subs retained, 100+ million accounts made. 'Nuff said.

[SkagenRora]

What is the point of harder content if easier content provides the same progression? That is anti-progression. The problem is and always will be in the heads of the players. If I am never going to Mythic raid then I don't need mythic gear to progress my character. My characters progression ceiling is at X content. Giving Warfronts Mythic raid gear doesn't create more progression it removes it.

Harder content shoulden't give better rewards. You do hard content just for the achivement/E-peen/world first race, or just because you find it "Fun". Not for the gear rewards.

[NtflxnChill]

Raiding is the only thing that keeps WoW alive.

[Phorest]

Or could it be that the game (and genre) is just getting old?

Look at the games dominating the market right now: LoL, Fortnite, CoD, PUBG, OW. Games you can play a quick match or two and be done for the day. Look at the direction Blizz is going. They are dipping their toe in the mobile gaming market (and i promise Diablo will not be the last time they do). The market is leaning towards games you can pick up and play at most an hour or two a day and be good. That market doesn't really include MMORPG games anymore and they are slowly getting left behind.

Even though I don't play anymore, WoW has done a pretty good job at retaining the numbers they do. I don't think the decline has so much to do with in game problems, as much as it is the market that is changing.

[chooi]

Or could it be that the game (and genre) is just getting old?

Look at the games dominating the market right now: LoL, Fortnite, CoD, PUBG, OW. Games you can play a quick match or two and be done for the day. Look at the direction Blizz is going. They are dipping their toe in the mobile gaming market (and i promise Diablo will not be the last time they do). The market is leaning towards games you can pick up and play at most an hour or two a day and be good. That market doesn't really include MMORPG games anymore and they are slowly getting left behind.

Even though I don't play anymore, WoW has done a pretty good job at retaining the numbers they do. I don't think the decline has so much to do with in game problems, as much as it is the market that is changing.

This is a factor for sure but gameplay plays a huge part, too.

[Berndorf]

Or could it be that the game (and genre) is just getting old?

Look at the games dominating the market right now: LoL, Fortnite, CoD, PUBG, OW. Games you can play a quick match or two and be done for the day. Look at the direction Blizz is going. They are dipping their toe in the mobile gaming market (and i promise Diablo will not be the last time they do). The market is leaning towards games you can pick up and play at most an hour or two a day and be good. That market doesn't really include MMORPG games anymore and they are slowly getting left behind.

Even though I don't play anymore, WoW has done a pretty good job at retaining the numbers they do. I don't think the decline has so much to do with in game problems, as much as it is the market that is changing.

Mmo's are getting left behind but that's at least due in part to Bliz's choice in terms of the direction they've been on for 10+ years straight and in making raiding the de facto form of end game. That's the whole point of this thread. Bliz sees the writing on the wall but aren't willing to be put the proper dev time into truly adjusting the end game because they are obsessed with the raiding side of things and are scared that they might scare off raiders if they don't have 3+ huge raids in each exp.

[Deleted]

i hate raiding, it's tedious as fk and only being done in order to get the loot out of it. if they removed the loot, barely anyone would want to do them. because raids and mythics are nothing but a TEDIOUS CHORE, during which you look at the clock every 5-10 mins looking forward to it being done. there is absolutely zero enjoyment in doing that shit.

[crono14]

Mmo's are getting left behind but that's at least due in part to Bliz's choice in terms of the direction they've been on for 10+ years straight and in making raiding the de facto form of end game. That's the whole point of this thread. Bliz sees the writing on the wall but aren't willing to be put the proper dev time into truly adjusting the end game because they are obsessed with the raiding side of things and are scared that they might scare off raiders if they don't have 3+ huge raids in each exp.

Your opinion about MMO's getting left behind is simply your opinion.

That's because any other form of solo/small group content a lot of games either do better already.

You keep complaining but not providing any alternatives, so what would you suggest they put proper dev time into creating that will 'fix' the game for you?

This is an MMORPG, and raiding or large scale encounters have always been a staple of that genre.

[Berndorf]

Your opinion about MMO's getting left behind is simply your opinion.

That's because any other form of solo/small group content a lot of games either do better already.

You keep complaining but not providing any alternatives, so what would you suggest they put proper dev time into creating that will 'fix' the game for you?

This is an MMORPG, and raiding or large scale encounters have always been a staple of that genre.

I have provided multiple examples of what I would like to see them do. I'd say to cut back on raid dev time by 30% and make 10m dungeons or something similar that can be done in 30-40m. 5m dungeons should take more like 25-30m at most. Make M and M+ up to about +4 queuable based on ilvl. Bring back jp/vp. Stuff like that. Obviously this is just my opinion and no you don't have to agree. That is sort of what message boards are for though; expressing opinions. Some of you seem to be new to this or just so dense that you think others aren't aware of this.

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i hate raiding, it's tedious as fk and only being done in order to get the loot out of it. if they removed the loot, barely anyone would want to do them. because raids and mythics are nothing but a TEDIOUS CHORE, during which you look at the clock every 5-10 mins looking forward to it being done. there is absolutely zero enjoyment in doing that shit.

I agree. I raided for 2-3 years once or twice a week with people mostly in the 25-40 age bracket that I was largely friends with in a semi casual setting and it was still extremely tedious much of the time doing the same raid over and over again, wiping, having some people rage every once in a while, sitting in vent or something similar for 3+ hours at a time. If it weren't for the whole idea of getting loot I agree most people wouldn't do it. I mean ya it is fun to some degree and something to do but I think there are better and funner things we could be doing with our time.

[crono14]

I have provided multiple examples of what I would like to see them do. I'd say to cut back on raid dev time by 30% and make 10m dungeons or something similar that can be done in 30-40m. 5m dungeons should take more like 25-30m at most. Make M and M+ up to about +4 queuable based on ilvl. Bring back jp/vp. Stuff like that. Obviously this is just my opinion and no you don't have to agree. That is sort of what message boards are for though; expressing opinions. Some of you seem to be new to this or just so dense that you think others aren't aware of this.

They tried 10 man raiding/dungeons and it failed miserably overall already. It's impossible to balance from both a reward/difficulty standpoint and they have no way to stop things like class stacking or cheesing content without straight up restricting how you build your groups which would be hated. It also hurt a lot of the social aspect of the game, but that is another topic. This is why we have a static mythic difficulty of 20 people today, because they can always balance around that.

I don't really care for M+ personally, it's just a re-used mechanic from D3. I wasn't a big fan of it in Legion, and I am even less of a fan in BFA.

I think they should do more with their IE's, WF's, and even battlegrounds. They could have fun mechanics change the way you play these, low gravity, or other fun mechanics. They need to add more to do in the game rather than raid log, cause that happens alot.

[rhorle]

Harder content shoulden't give better rewards. You do hard content just for the achivement/E-peen/world first race, or just because you find it "Fun". Not for the gear rewards.

Then why hasn't questing ever given end-game rewards? Why does a level 1 not get level 120 gear (that they can equip)? The game has been based on harder content grants better gear. You don't go changing the wheel just because you don't like circles.

[crusadernero]

i hate raiding, it's tedious as fk and only being done in order to get the loot out of it. if they removed the loot, barely anyone would want to do them. because raids and mythics are nothing but a TEDIOUS CHORE, during which you look at the clock every 5-10 mins looking forward to it being done. there is absolutely zero enjoyment in doing that shit.

Think about everything you can do in the game to obtain loot. Now imagine loot being removed from all of them. You like that?

Just cause you find raiding boring, does not mean its "better" for the game to stop having good raid content. I find pet battles mindblowingly boring, I dont go on the forums and cry about it. why should you?

[Berndorf]

They tried 10 man raiding/dungeons and it failed miserably overall already. It's impossible to balance from both a reward/difficulty standpoint and they have no way to stop things like class stacking or cheesing content without straight up restricting how you build your groups which would be hated. It also hurt a lot of the social aspect of the game, but that is another topic. This is why we have a static mythic difficulty of 20 people today, because they can always balance around that.

I don't really care for M+ personally, it's just a re-used mechanic from D3. I wasn't a big fan of it in Legion, and I am even less of a fan in BFA.

I think they should do more with their IE's, WF's, and even battlegrounds. They could have fun mechanics change the way you play these, low gravity, or other fun mechanics. They need to add more to do in the game rather than raid log, cause that happens alot.

10m raiding worked fine in the past. Karazhan was easily one of the most liked dungeons/raids in wow history. That was still longer than what I had in mind though. 10m dungeons haven't really been a thing since Vanilla. I'm not saying just those things either though. As you mentioned, there are other directions they could go. Stuff that takes 30-45m tops, can be queued for or premade with varying degrees of difficulty(not really a fan of how M+ has been implemented) and varying rewards of loot and currency. The real problem though i think is that they are spending a huge amount of dev time on raids and dungeons which no one even likes. 10 dungeons in bfa, most of them people actively avoid imo or just aren't fun with too much trash. Cut it down to 6 5m's, 1 6-8 boss raid and something else which is well done. It could be a couple 10m dungeons or w/e.

[crono14]

10m raiding worked fine in the past. Karazhan was easily one of the most liked dungeons/raids in wow history. That was still longer than what I had in mind though. 10m dungeons haven't really been a thing since Vanilla. I'm not saying just those things either though. As you mentioned, there are other directions they could go. Stuff that takes 30-45m tops, can be queued for or premade with varying degrees of difficulty(not really a fan of how M+ has been implemented) and varying rewards of loot and currency. The real problem though i think is that they are spending a huge amount of dev time on raids and dungeons which no one even likes. 10 dungeons in bfa, most of them people actively avoid imo or just aren't fun with too much trash. Cut it down to 6 5m's, 1 6-8 boss raid and something else which is well done. It could be a couple 10m dungeons or w/e.

I mean they could even do fun stuff like add new sets of items and gear that do some crazy stuff in IE's or some other form of pve content. Like there is so much potential in that technology and hardware they could expand upon. It's just a matter of will they. Why not expand warfronts to actually be some sort of dungeon defender type of thing where players have to actually build offenses and defenses. I just think the possibilities with their new tech is endless. I for one think it sounds like a lot of fun.

Even the outposts we build as part of the war campaign quest line, they are essentially pointless and just a flight path in the other continent. Why are there no forces we could deploy from these to attack the other faction and have an actual war in the game?

I don't think their dev time towards raiding taken anything away from that. The game is after all and RPG, so the primary focus of the game is to tell a story and your character have meaning.

While vanilla did have the capability to have 10 people in the dungeons, they were fixed and capped at 5 and 10 or 15 depending on the dungeon as having more people trivialized the content. I think that might have been an oversight on Blizzard's part, but who knows. Kara was the true 10m raid and it only had one difficulty, and yes it was fun.

They will never have such a small raid size by the only difficulty again though, because as I said before there would be nothing to stop people from stacking classes to trivialize content and it severly limits the types of mechanics they can implement because of the small raid size. They can't 100% make a mechanic for a class you don't have or something. It's not possible to properly balance small raids, which is why they abandoned it. Even if you try raiding heroic with 10 people right, some fights are actually pretty difficult if you have a bad comp. People complain about it all the time.

[Berndorf]

I mean they could even do fun stuff like add new sets of items and gear that do some crazy stuff in IE's or some other form of pve content. Like there is so much potential in that technology and hardware they could expand upon. It's just a matter of will they. Why not expand warfronts to actually be some sort of dungeon defender type of thing where players have to actually build offenses and defenses. I just think the possibilities with their new tech is endless. I for one think it sounds like a lot of fun.

Even the outposts we build as part of the war campaign quest line, they are essentially pointless and just a flight path in the other continent. Why are there no forces we could deploy from these to attack the other faction and have an actual war in the game?

I don't think their dev time towards raiding taken anything away from that. The game is after all and RPG, so the primary focus of the game is to tell a story and your character have meaning.

While vanilla did have the capability to have 10 people in the dungeons, they were fixed and capped at 5 and 10 or 15 depending on the dungeon as having more people trivialized the content. I think that might have been an oversight on Blizzard's part, but who knows. Kara was the true 10m raid and it only had one difficulty, and yes it was fun.

They will never have such a small raid size by the only difficulty again though, because as I said before there would be nothing to stop people from stacking classes to trivialize content and it severly limits the types of mechanics they can implement because of the small raid size. They can't 100% make a mechanic for a class you don't have or something. It's not possible to properly balance small raids, which is why they abandoned it. Even if you try raiding heroic with 10 people right, some fights are actually pretty difficult if you have a bad comp. People complain about it all the time.

The thing is the 10m content I am proposing wouldn't be on the complexity level of raiding. That's why I say 10m dungeon and not raid. It wouldn't be 10m long 3 phase fights. It would be 4-5m fight with a 2-3 mechanics and maybe two phases but they could still be hard. If people want to stack certain classes in a premade then let them. Many if not most of the groups doing it would still be random and would be fine.

[SkagenRora]

No, I do harder content for better gear. Next.

I've always been told that the high end players only do it for the prestige tho and that the gear is not the goal.

[rhorle]

I still think Blizz should add some "alternative" ways to get gear.

There are alternative ways to get gear. There is no need to allow everyone to get full highest difficulty gear. You only need the gear for the content you are doing. If you never step foot into mythic raiding then you don't need mythic raiding level gear. Not the end of progression is not the same for every player. Different levels of gear progression are fine as long as that ceiling stops where you out gear the content you do.

Harder content should most certainly give better rewards. Because those better rewards are what make that content easier. The entire game and its systems would need to be redone to remove gear from the difficulty path. And even then there would be some new way to steadily decrease the difficulty for "winning". Otherwise everything would be a one and done. No one would beat their heads against a wall every week with no change in difficulty if all it gave was a pet or achievement.

You raid to get gear. Gear that helps you raid.