Does it feel like BM hunters are falling off?

[Kaver]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../19#dataset=95

bm hunter dead last, mm hunter 3rd to last.

what are we supposed to play in raid :S

BM is completely viable in raids. Most top guilds are using 3 BM hunters because it's such an amazing progression spec with the unlimited movement. Damage is not everything and most high parses are based on players who just "tunnel dps" and don't focus on other duties of the raid (for example Frost DKs). It's very beneficial for raid leaders for example to play BM hunter because it allows them to put more focus on leading the raid.

[kucerakov]

Someone already said it here, it is the outcome that matters. It makes sense for our dps to be lower if the mobility would cause our otherwise EQUAL dps to dwarf everyone else because we can move. We don't. As you can see in the meters, it only gives us an advantage in the beginning of a tier, if at all. Or if your raid team can't manage movement and dpsing at the same time, and why should hunters pay for that. So yeah, if mobility was so instrumental you would see a MASSIVE overbalance in the beginning of each tier for learning fights, and then see us falling way BELOW after people know the fights. You don't. You see us falling behind by a margin that could easily be explained by the 5% nerf and blizzards inability to answer our game-long scaling issue. If it is not having the result you would expect, then you have to remove mobility as a consideration, or adjust your expectations accordingly.

Our utility is really dubious at best if you separate it from our mobility. Someone else said, nobody is stacking BM or requiring one for our "utility". Nobody says "we probably won't get x boss down, we don't have a BM hunter".

[youswas]

BM is a basic spec with mobility that a 3 year old could play. I can't wait until vanilla is out, where proper hunters excel.

do you have any accomplishments this expansion to back up this claim? why should i listen to you?

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BM is completely viable in raids. Most top guilds are using 3 BM hunters because it's such an amazing progression spec with the unlimited movement. Damage is not everything and most high parses are based on players who just "tunnel dps" and don't focus on other duties of the raid (for example Frost DKs). It's very beneficial for raid leaders for example to play BM hunter because it allows them to put more focus on leading the raid.

i promise you that no top guilds are bringing 3 BM hunters. most top guilds will bring 1, many will bring 2, but very few will bring 3. unfortunately my GM rerolled hunter for this tier, so i will be by default the second hunter, which means i'll likely be on the bizzench for a fight or two.

if bm needs to be punished for it's mobility, at least make marksmanship viable.

[FrostyButt]

do you have any accomplishments this expansion to back up this claim? why should i listen to you?

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i promise you that no top guilds are bringing 3 BM hunters. most top guilds will bring 1, many will bring 2, but very few will bring 3. unfortunately my GM rerolled hunter for this tier, so i will be by default the second hunter, which means i'll likely be on the bizzench for a fight or two.

if bm needs to be punished for it's mobility, at least make marksmanship viable.

What?

Didn't Method run with 2 - 3 Hunters for the Uldir world first race? Also I know of many guilds that will be using 2 - 3 hunters that are in top 50 US guilds.

[Boo Radley]

BM still suffers from its reputation during the early days of wow, when in vanilla, TBC and wrath it was in the tier of a few that were by far the easiest specs to play as hunters were the most played class, blizzard kept them simple.

I had this expectation and then started actually playing BM and now I recognize its more difficult than most of the other classes I play. I have 10 120's by the way.

Basically anyone who thinks its braindead should try it now.

[youswas]

What?

Didn't Method run with 2 - 3 Hunters for the Uldir world first race? Also I know of many guilds that will be using 2 - 3 hunters that are in top 50 US guilds.

i could be wrong, but i'm almost sure that nobody will bring 3 hunters to progression. BM was heavily represented in Uldir prog because of how good it was at the time, when nobody had any gear. now that more gear dependent classes like shadow priest have the haste and crit they need, they're outperforming us.

now, it could be that reorigination array is a large part of what's causing hunters to be so lackluster. because hunter secondary traits are so even, we don't get a huge benefit from one secondary getting a massive artificial boost, whereas classes that get a massive bonus from one particular stat will benefit more. so it could be that without reorigination array, bm will jump back up to the list to a more middle-of-the-pack area which would leave us in a great spot.

i still think you will bring 2 if you have 2 good ones and 1 will be in danger of the bench

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observe:

spriest w/o archive: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...L9uLCigkHR2L4C (17,109 dps)
spriest w/ archive: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...NT3xgNDBLMwKTX (18,866 dps)

increase of 1,757 dps

hunter w/o archive: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...GMSB64CxdWRXXe (16,943 dps)
hunter w/ archive: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/repo...cvb3ukmrPFxim6 (18,441 dps)

increase of 1,498 dps

so reorigination array doubled the lead that spriest has on hunter. this, combined with our movement, might put us at a respectable place next tier. we will have to see how the new row of azerite traits synergizes with hunter vs. the other classes. i did notice that a lot of azerite trait nerfs went out but Primal Instincts wasn't on the list. but i also noticed, going through the raid gear, that there doesn't seem to be 3 ideal pieces available from the new raid.

[Tehterokkar]

BM still suffers from its reputation during the early days of wow, when in vanilla, TBC and wrath it was in the tier of a few that were by far the easiest specs to play as hunters were the most played class, blizzard kept them simple.

I had this expectation and then started actually playing BM and now I recognize its more difficult than most of the other classes I play. I have 10 120's by the way.

Basically anyone who thinks its braindead should try it now.

Or they haven't tried any other class. This is such a meme statement these days, BM is much harder to min-max than other specs, it's 1 of the only specs with a maintenance buff left, and one that can't be kept up 100%.

[Lodvampire]

Someone already said it here, it is the outcome that matters. It makes sense for our dps to be lower if the mobility would cause our otherwise EQUAL dps to dwarf everyone else because we can move. We don't. As you can see in the meters, it only gives us an advantage in the beginning of a tier, if at all. Or if your raid team can't manage movement and dpsing at the same time, and why should hunters pay for that. So yeah, if mobility was so instrumental you would see a MASSIVE overbalance in the beginning of each tier for learning fights, and then see us falling way BELOW after people know the fights. You don't. You see us falling behind by a margin that could easily be explained by the 5% nerf and blizzards inability to answer our game-long scaling issue. If it is not having the result you would expect, then you have to remove mobility as a consideration, or adjust your expectations accordingly.

Our utility is really dubious at best if you separate it from our mobility. Someone else said, nobody is stacking BM or requiring one for our "utility". Nobody says "we probably won't get x boss down, we don't have a BM hunter".

For me the simple way to fix this would be - Standing still for X seconds cause you to get a buff for X% of damage (10, 15% i don't wanna do the math now), moving cause you to lose it, then we can really see the tradeoff dps for mobility, but I'm just a player, and according to some folks at blizz, players doens't know what they want.

[Keren]

For me the simple way to fix this would be - Standing still for X seconds cause you to get a buff for X% of damage (10, 15% i don't wanna do the math now), moving cause you to lose it, then we can really see the tradeoff dps for mobility, but I'm just a player, and according to some folks at blizz, players doens't know what they want.

marksman had a talent like that in another addon. Was really interesting to play and getting yelled at for stading outside of the raid to not being forced to move with everyone

[Kaver]

If Blizzard gave BM a reason to stand still people would go insane and there would be dead BM hunters all over the raids because they couldn’t manage a restriction to their mobility.

[Deleted]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../19#dataset=95

bm hunter dead last, mm hunter 3rd to last.

what are we supposed to play in raid :S

Meme hunter. Our job is to find zesty memes and post them to discord whilst every one else kills the boss.

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Or they haven't tried any other class. This is such a meme statement these days, BM is much harder to min-max than other specs, it's 1 of the only specs with a maintenance buff left, and one that can't be kept up 100%.

I find the to be more of a sad reflection on how shallow the game play is of most of the classes in this game rather than an advert for bm being complex.

[Lodvampire]

If Blizzard gave BM a reason to stand still people would go insane and there would be dead BM hunters all over the raids because they couldn’t manage a restriction to their mobility.

That's the point, i know a lot of mages and warlocks that top charts not just because imbalance, but because even in fights that we need soak or some sort of movement for a mechanic, they stand still to not lose dps.
In pugs, LFR, randon dg's, etc, we see even people afk'ing.
With this change if you are in a seriuos guild, we gonna start to see the skill ceilling for BM hunter, that can do good dps and mechanics, bcause they know when to move.

[Kaver]

That's the point, i know a lot of mages and warlocks that top charts not just because imbalance, but because even in fights that we need soak or some sort of movement for a mechanic, they stand still to not lose dps.
In pugs, LFR, randon dg's, etc, we see even people afk'ing.
With this change if you are in a seriuos guild, we gonna start to see the skill ceilling for BM hunter, that can do good dps and mechanics, bcause they know when to move.

Don’t get me wrong, I think that would be a good change. I’m just saying that a lot of BM players will be crazy mad if you change their completely unrestricted gameplay.

[GoKs]

The problem would be that if Blizz decides to do that, they would be complete idiots and not balance us accordingly in any case. They would need to fix the scaling (that they have no idea how to) for us to stay competitive, there would be no reason at all to bring a BM hunter if a lock or mage could do better dps while they have to stop casting to go and do mechanics, where now BM hunters can be used to run mechanics just fine without losing dps.

[Corroc]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/st.../19#dataset=95

bm hunter dead last, mm hunter 3rd to last.

what are we supposed to play in raid :S

Dps difference between bm and frost dk is whopping 2.6k. You cant say BM isn't viable spec.

[Calfredd]

BM is a basic spec with mobility that a 3 year old could play. I can't wait until vanilla is out, where proper hunters excel.

One-button macro hunters.

[piitxu]

Problem is reorigination array. As soon as it goes away some specs will fall off a lot as they got a significant advantage over others stacking that one stat to completely unreachable amounts otherwise.

[Keren]

that and the 5th azerite ring will mix the field a bit again

[Poppincaps]

Dps difference between bm and frost dk is whopping 2.6k. You cant say BM isn't viable spec.

That's quite a bit homie. Over 10% difference. On high end Mythic progression that could easily make or break a fight.

[Malikath]

For me the simple way to fix this would be

they tried that for marks years ago, it was as stupid then as it is now.