[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Deleted]

Thrall's self doubts are another issue altogether. It's not about cheating: it's his failure as a leader (he chose Hellscream after all). Far as I know there is no confirmation of "cheating" about Thrall anyway: it's playerbase speculation.

Yes, Sylvanas wouldn't much care for cheating. And that's working on a hypothetical that would depose her of popularity: she cheats > the horde has a "honorable" reason to rebel.
But I don't think she even needs to resort to any cheating at all. Which, I think, renders the premise of challenging her pointless. Does any horde character stand a chance against her in combat 1 on 1? consider that she is capable of standing long against what amounts to a semi-god (Malfurion).

Very true, and we should also remember that in a poll a few weeks back an overwhelming majority of people felt Sylvanas would kick Saurfang's ass in a 1v1. These people here just saying she would automatically cheat are too scared to accept the possibility that she would not even need to try, if what a majority of the fanbase here thinks is anything to go by.

[Zulkhan]

That's totally different because Vol'jin didn't ask for Alliance help. Even though he did and clearly stated to the Alliance champion that if he fails, they're next. Also, Night Elves totally didn't break through the main gate and Varian didn't prevent Thrall from killing Garrosh.

I mean, regardless of where this plot ultimately ends, people are doing some major history rewriting. Either Horde players are all traitors to the previous Horde, or it's entirely justified to act against Warchief in certain circumstances. Both options make their rage at Saurfang seem incredibly hypocritical.

The major difference is that Vol'jin was the official head of the rebellion, namely the Horde that would have succeded Garrosh's, and as its representative he handled a situation he never considered before the Alliance showed up, because it was them who tried to reach Vol'jin and not the opposite. That made it clear that the Alliance didn't pull any strings and simply attempted to cooperate with an already ongoing rebellion.

The problem is not that Saurfang is "reaching out" Anduin because he didn't either, it's the fact that he literally stated to have spared Anduin because he hoped he would have stopped Sylvanas and now he's thinking about doing something for the first time because His Brightness willed it. And of course, he's head of no rebellion and no in the Horde is "represented" by this position.

One who doesn't want a Horde led by a murderous tyrant no better than any end of expansion we've fought?

How Sylvanas is a tyrant? Do you know what tyrrany actually is?

So why weren't they enthralled by the Warbringers cinematic? At least not anywhere near as much as this cinematic. And it's not because people don't like Warbringers or anything, the Jaina one got super high praise and views.

I don't utterly disagree with your point, however Warbringer: Sylvanas was disliked also because the cinematic was the legitimately weaker of the three and it makes sense that it was the less liked.

Saurfang was betrayed by Sylvanas already

Mind you, I don't agree with the idea that the Warchief cannot betray his subjects because there is a wide a room for betrayal even for them, but how exactly Sylvanas "betrayed" Saurfang?

I don't think she's the kind of leader, however, that deserves to be brought down in an honorable fashion

So we can turn into a bunch of treacherous backstabbers while screeching about "honor". Yeah baby, that's "my Horde". I mean, I'm fine with doing any of these separately, not together.

That's like saying the Italians who killed Mussolini were against Italy. A leader =/= a faction/state.

The little difference is that no one but die-hard fascists followed Mussolini at that point, much like only the Kor'kron followed Garrosh from 5.3 and on. Right now, the Horde is mostly behind Sylvanas and if that doesn't change than yes, opposing Sylvanas would mean opposing the Horde. Saurfang's desire of "wanting his Horde back" is a fundamentally self-centered feeling.

Its been made abundantly clear that Sylvanas wasn't even appointed by legitimate means

Except she was. The previous Warchief chose her. Said Warchief being motivated by an external influence in choosing her doesn't make Sylvanas' position illegitimate. People confuse the fact that Vol'jin has no memory of what motivated him to choose her as proof of objective manipulation. It isn't.

All these people talking about treachery towards Sylvanas, I bet you didn't defend Garrosh when he was Warchief so you're all a bunch of hypocrits. If you didn't stay with Garrosh to the end back then, then you don't have anything to say now.

It's a false equivalence, because the characters aren't the same, the consensus isn't the same and the circumstances aren't the same. I don't give a fuck about Sylvanas as I gave even less fucks about Garrosh, but Blizzard is rehashing the MoP plot with circumstances that make Saurfang look not only like an isolated, self-centered and depressed fool sulking in his cage but also as a faithful believer of Manduinism.

As a bonus, look at that, Malf killing more people, but atleast Saurfang feels good about himself.

I'm sure those people would want so badly to join Saurfang's rebellion now that they would just come back to life out of sheer will.

The true Horde died when Thrall became its Warchief. The green human tainted orcs with human morals since he was raised by humans, he never understood orcs and what they needed. Orcs used to believe in conquest and glory, now they're bound by human's morals that no longer let them indulge in what they loved to do.

Not exactly. Thrall's human morals never truly tainted the rest of the Orcs because none of them could relate to them, however Thrall indeed tried to bring the Orcs back to the time when his people weren't led into a path of treachery, corruption and senseless warmongering, which are the ingredients that gave birth to the Old Horde. That aspect was indeed somewhat restored, proved by the fact that the orcs who belonged to Thrall's Horde from the beginning opposed Garrosh and his bunch of Old Horde nostalgic morons.

No, he's really not, and that's the problem here. Post-curse Saurfang was the one who was okay with waging a war of aggression on some flimsy pretenses (worse than the ones that justified Garrosh's War), for example.

Indeed. The character "established" during the Warsong Hold chat with Garrosh it's someone who regretted the slaughter of innocents and defenseless non-combatants under the influence of the demon blood and the Draenei genocide was the obvious reference. And indeed, we saw in the War of Throns how Saurfang wanted to spare the civilians of Lor'danel and was predictably horrified by the burning of Teldrassil (event that gave him vivid Shattrath flashbacks, aka the genocide of the Draenei).

That being said, there is the chance that Saurfang and others committed many other atrocities during the First and Second wars against the humans, but that would have less to do with the war itself (which was led by Orgrim, someone who wasn't indeed corrupted by the demons) and more with a likely moltitude of senseless acts of gratious brutality against innocents they performed during those wars, as consequence of their demon-driven rage.

Garrosh choosing not to use the blight has no bearing on whether or not the Forsaken were used as a meatshield. By that logic, any refusal to use [insert powerup/weapon of questionable morality] would be chalked up to "using troops as meatshields" or "throwing lives away."

I have to disagree. I think it's pretty obvious that using the Blight would have made a difference and surely would have saved the Forsaken from being used in a meat-shield tactic that was going to cripple them so hard that the Alliance would have later conquered the Undercity without much effort (and with Garrosh doing nothing to prevent that, despite being the prime responsible of that situation).

Obviously, Garrosh had his own "ideas" regarding the Blight but if he really desired to have his coastal fortress so bad, maybe he should have took it in consideration. I think it would have been a better option compared to destroy an allied race's chances of survival but throwing them all in the meat-grinder. And that makes you think that Garrosh indeed may have had an agenda regarding the Forsaken and wanted them gone for good (even further supported by the fact that, again, he would have not moved a finger to support them against Varian's invasion of the Undercity).

#TeamSaurfang
#TeamTrueHorde

I'm so excited to see the ball rolling to get the real Horde back in charge!

I seriously can't understand how people can be so excited about this. I mean, we had this situation with Garrosh already, the Horde was supposedly back on its usual track and then, a couple of expansions later, Warchief Sylvanas became a thing. Blizzard is literally mocking us by appeasing the "WC3 Horde fans" with one hand while slapping them with the "plot-driving Horde" of the likes of Sylvanas and Garrosh they need to push the story forward. All because they're utterly incapable to write the Alliance as anything more but a massive ball of friendship at the mercy of His Brightness.

You think these situations are the same, but they aren't.

Garrosh and Vol'jin did not get along from the start. Even though people like parading around "Garrosh didn't want to be warchief" they also conveniently forget that Vol'jin also didn't want him to be Warchief. They play ball until Garrosh launches an assassination attempt on Vol'jin, whereupon it is now Vol'jin's right to overthrow the Warchief and lead the Horde himself.

Now, here's the part where it gets tricky. No matter what you think of her, Vol'jin appointed Sylvanas his successor. Regardless of the wrench Blizzard throws in to undermine that decision Sylvanas has largely done as she was expected to do and ensure the Horde's survival. Now you have Saurfang who doesn't like how Sylvanas goes about that and has a crisis of faith, followed by another one where he decides he'd rather die in battle than serve Sylvanas. Instead, Saurfang lands in Alliance jail, and when the opportunity presents itself he chooses to stay there. Now Anduin comes and has his little chat about honor like he promised, and conveniently leaves the door open and sets Saurfang free, which now Saurfang takes. Saurfang is now of the mind to make the Horde what he wants it to be and remove Sylvanas.

The two things that rub people wrong are as follows:

1. Blizzard retcons Vol'jin's decision to be somehow outside of his normal mind, which undermines Vol'jin himself and suggests that the Horde is being played, which nobody likes
2. Saurfang isn't going after Sylvanas because he suddenly changed his mind-- he did it at the prompting/urging of Anduin, the opposing faction's leader. His motives are tainted because it now appears, whether he believes it or not, that he's acting on Alliance behalf.

In contrast Vol'jin's revolution did not involve the Alliance until well after it was underway.

Lastly, those points above whatever Sylvanas's role is is completely tangential so it really has nothing to do with her, which is why people can either be for her and against her and still be angry.

Nah, it's obviously because Garrosh didn't have tits!

Outside of the fact that they could literally not succeed without the Alliance, leading Vol'jin to beg them to help kill their Warchief.

Man what a traitor.

Because there is absolutely no difference between a rebellion entirely organized by the Horde itself, one that would later receive the Alliance representative in its base of operations to discuss the terms of cooperation and having another rebellion prompted and orchestrated by the Alliance.

Let's also forget how the part in bold became a thing after the Alliance playerbase went on a rampage over Vol'jin being rude to them. I still remember the posters hoping Vol'jin would have been the next Garrosh so they could have killed him too.

[Frontenac]

The two things that rub people wrong are as follows:

1. Blizzard retcons Vol'jin's decision to be somehow outside of his normal mind, which undermines Vol'jin himself and suggests that the Horde is being played, which nobody likes

Where is the retcon? Already when Vol'jin made his decision there was people thinking there was something fishy going on. It stank even more when we saw Sylvanas making her deal with Helya. The pestilence was even stronger when Varimathras told us in Antorus that Vol'jin had been played:

" So, she found me at last. Sent her underlings to finish the job. Tell me, when she seized your throne of hides and bones, was your allegiance forced? No... I'd wager you surrendered it willingly... or were convinced you did. It matters not. You are blind to the darkness in your midst."

Unless you were blinding yourself, there was no real surprise to learn that Vol'jin had been played to name Sylvanas has his successor.

2. Saurfang isn't going after Sylvanas because he suddenly changed his mind-- he did it at the prompting/urging of Anduin, the opposing faction's leader. His motives are tainted because it now appears, whether he believes it or not, that he's acting on Alliance behalf.

In contrast Vol'jin's revolution did not involve the Alliance until well after it was underway.

Lastly, those points above whatever Sylvanas's role is is completely tangential so it really has nothing to do with her, which is why people can either be for her and against her and still be angry.

You're right, He didn't suddenly change his mind. Because he was shown to be opposing Sylvanas since the beginning of this expansion. He sees the Horde following a path of destruction and wants "his" Horde back. Since the beginning. But I fail to see any signs that Saurfang is acting on the Alliance behalf. Basicly, how does it go?

ANDUIN: Why did you spare me?"
SAURFANG: I hoped you would stop her."
ANDUIN: I can't. Not alone"

Then Anduin goes away and leaves the cell door open. There is no agreement on what to do or what the Horde will become if Saurfang helps the Alliance or anything. Or how the Alliance can help Saurfang to mount a coup. Anduin leaves Saurfang with a choice. He can stay in his cell. He can escape and live alone. He can escape and make his own group. He can escape and fight Sylvanas. Saurfang's choice is his own. Anduin is just hoping he will make the right decision. He will fight to get his Horde back, and there's no sign that he will get all friendly with the Alliance after that.

[KaPe]

Very true, and we should also remember that in a poll a few weeks back an overwhelming majority of people felt Sylvanas would kick Saurfang's ass in a 1v1. These people here just saying she would automatically cheat are too scared to accept the possibility that she would not even need to try, if what a majority of the fanbase here thinks is anything to go by.

That's the issue with Mak'gora (or fantasy combat in general) in the first place. Various spellcasters have a huge advantage over typical warriors - especially when they are built up doing impressive things across various cinematics. So "cheating" enters the play to even out the odds... which makes zero sense. Shamanistic talents are part of character's strength. So are Warlock spells. So are banshee powers. All should be superior to just having big muscles - well, unless said muscles were enhanced by demonic magic or something... but that would, once again, be "cheating". Pure physical strength would have to be truly overpowering to really matter - and outside of "Saurfang's facts" bullshit, he never displayed such power.

[Super Dickmann]

You're right, He didn't suddenly change his mind. Because he was shown to be opposing Sylvanas since the beginning of this expansion. He sees the Horde following a path of destruction and wants "his" Horde back. Since the beginning. But I fail to see any signs that Saurfang is acting on the Alliance behalf. Basicly, how does it go?

That's wrong. Saurfang organized and enjoyed the entirety of the War of the Thorns up to the Burning of the tree, which, after Sylvanas explains her reasoning, he admits to himself makes sense. He hasn't opposed her in any meaningful sense at any point. What he has opposed right after though was the Horde in general, what with sparing the Alliance leader in the hopes he'd kill his Warchief and sparing Malfurion which leads to the deaths of further Horde troops, something Saurfang even acknowledges.

He denies being released by the Horde heroes, which we'll be expected to believe will suddenly love him and Anduin in a patch or two, but he does whine to our God-King about how he wants his Horde back, the Horde he ditched and had no trust to handle itself without Alliance aid. Then he gets released, with every aspect of his release ensured by SI:7 and even if the player is loyal to him for whatever reason, Saurfang not only doesn't say a word about the Alliance's role in letting him out, but refuses to confide in you what he has planned. He's a traitor and an Alliance puppet with the explicit aim on Anduin's part to use him to split the Horde during a war and overthrow its leadership.

[Deleted]

This saurfang is a pussy, no reason to play horde if he becomes our new warchief. Rather go full alliance then making my undead monk to a gnome monk.

[Life-Binder]

Saurfang sure is a piece of work

the short story shows that he and Sylvanas fully discussed the attack on Teldrassil/upcoming conflict beforehand and he agreed with her arguments, agreed to attack and was prepared for the consequences


he was & is totally fine with Horde potentially subjugating Alliance, sacking Stormwind (as long as it does not cost too much Horde lives), Alliance soldiers deaths etc. .. his only concerns are "honorable war" whatever that is and "get muh Horde back" .. not peace or Alliance lives .. yet he turns to that same Alliance


honestly Anduin should nuke him with his SP powers

[qwerty123456]

Tell me why would any strong leader leave responsobilities during the war time? If you are defecting from your own faction just to give an easy victory to your enemy, you are no leader at all, you are a traitor. Saurfang didn't kill Malfurion when he had one task, surrendered in BFL, now becomes part of alliance scheme. Do you think all those deaths during this war are nothing comparing to Saurfang's honor? Victory or Death has always been orcish warcry, but for Saurfang it is about "muh honor" first, victory or death later.

Perhaps its because he and pretty much everyone else in WoW know there are still greater threats out there and randomly attacking and trying to kill off the top tier guys on the other side dooms your own people as well?

[Life-Binder]

You're right, He didn't suddenly change his mind. Because he was shown to be opposing Sylvanas since the beginning of this expansion. He sees the Horde following a path of destruction and wants "his" Horde back. Since the beginning.

this is flat out false

read "A Good War"

[Frontenac]

this is flat out false

read "A Good War"

This is before the expansion. After the burning of Teldrassil, he's pretty much contesting every decision from Sylvanas. That's what we are seeing in game.

[Life-Binder]

This is before the expansion. After the burning of Teldrassil, he's pretty much contesting every decision from Sylvanas. That's what we are seeing in game.

yeah

which means he changes his mind compared to the actual beginning (A Good War), when he agreed to start the war vs the alliance



taking alliance lives is fine with Saurfang (since that IS a good thing for the Horde), its HOW you take them that he is picky with

[Hubbl3]

yeah

which means he changes his mind compared to the actual beginning (A Good War), when he agreed to start the war vs the alliance



taking alliance lives is fine with Saurfang (since that IS a good thing for the Horde), its HOW you take them that he is picky with

Even more funny is the potential ending where everything gets blamed on Sylvanas, possibly Nathanos and a sub-faction of Forsaken while everyone else gets off free.

[Frontenac]

yeah

which means he changes his mind compared to the actual beginning (A Good War), when he agreed to start the war vs the alliance



taking alliance lives is fine with Saurfang (since that IS a good thing for the Horde), its HOW you take them that he is picky with

Exactly. His gripes are not against the war, but against the present leadership. He agreed to start the war, but did not agree to burn Teldrassil. Or for Sylvanas blighting her own troops. It's not war he opposes, but what the Horde has become. And we see that in Darkshore, then in Lordaeron and in the "Old Soldier" cinematic. That is why I'm saying he has not changed his mind, even less that Anduin made him change his mind on that matter. The only thing that seems to have changed is that he is now willing to actively do something about it, instead of brooding in his cell.

[Aucald]

Saurfang sure is a piece of work

the short story shows that he and Sylvanas fully discussed the attack on Teldrassil/upcoming conflict beforehand and he agreed with her arguments, agreed to attack and was prepared for the consequences


he was & is totally fine with Horde potentially subjugating Alliance, sacking Stormwind (as long as it does not cost too much Horde lives), Alliance soldiers deaths etc. .. his only concerns are "honorable war" whatever that is and "get muh Horde back" .. not peace or Alliance lives .. yet he turns to that same Alliance


honestly Anduin should nuke him with his SP powers

Saurfang was prepared to enact a war with the Alliance by performing a lightning attack on Teldrassil, securing it, capturing the Azerite en route to the location, and holding it ransom while bleeding the Alliance dry on all the other fronts. That was the war compact that Sylvanas sold him on, and then she flipped the script and prompted a brutal sacking (and in many eyes a genocide) of the Night Elves to "break their hope." This is not a consequence that Saurfang was prepared for, and not one he was willing to accept (as it very strongly recalls the genocide of the Draenei in which Saurfang was a willing participant).

He wanted to defeat the Alliance - and he was willing to kill many of them to do it, but he didn't want to decimate them utterly or drive them into extinction (or worse, into mass undeath). That was how he defined a "good war" for the Horde - with the Horde finally able to leave in peace without the fear of Alliance power hounding them across the seas and around the face of the planet. The war Sylvanas has created, and the acts of the Horde under her leadership, are not things Saurfang would've ever agreed with or abided by. The most cursory study of his character seems to pretty easily show that.

[Life-Binder]

He wanted to defeat the Alliance - and he was willing to kill many of them to do it, but he didn't want to decimate them utterly or drive them into extinction

wow, how noble of the traitor

[Arrashi]

wow, how noble of the traitor

I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".

[KaPe]

I just love the idea of "I want to murder people in moderation".

"I want to kill enemy combatants who fight back, but not slaughter the civilians." I fail to see how this doesn't make sense. He remembers the Path of Glory and has no desire to repeat that.

[Arrashi]

"I want to kill enemy combatants who fight back, but not slaughter the civilians." I fail to see how this doesn't make sense. He remembers the Path of Glory and has no desire to repeat that.

You forgot "They are defending their home after I attacked them" part.

Wew, much honor.

[Combatbutler]

"I want to kill enemy combatants who fight back, but not slaughter the civilians." I fail to see how this doesn't make sense. He remembers the Path of Glory and has no desire to repeat that.

Yet ignores the extermination of the Quilboar by his own people for example. Saurfang hasn't really learned a thing he just cares more for the people who were slaughtered.

[KaPe]

You forgot "They are defending their home after I attacked them" part.

Wew, much honor.

His definition of honor clearly isn't Lawful Good and isn't intended as such, but it still makes sense as a Horde commander. He took part in what was supposed to be a war of conquest, not annihilation. Instead, Sylvanas made him participate in a repeat of something he already did in the past and despised himself for doing.