[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Hubbl3]

"I want to kill enemy combatants who fight back, but not slaughter the civilians."

"I want to kill soldiers for fun" basically? I don't even know what to say. Saurfang is in this war to kill people? Because he likes killing people? Imagine meeting a soldier who gets off to killing other soldiers. They fight back so it's not bad?!

What Arrashi says is true. He wants to murder in moderation.

[Gorsameth]

You forgot "They are defending their home after I attacked them" part.

Wew, much honor.

You make it sound like this is an unnatural position.
We have a lot of soldiers right here on earth who believe this. Its fine to fight other soldiers to keep your country/future safe. Burning women and children in their home goes to far.

This is not new or unnatural.
Saurfang basically supports the Geneva convention.

[Combatbutler]

"I want to kill soldiers for fun" basically? I don't even know what to say. Saurfang is in this war to kill people? Because he likes killing people? Imagine meeting a soldier who gets off to killing other soldiers. They fight back so it's not bad?!

You described almost every orc in existence, orcs thrive for war as long as they deem it honorable.

[Arrashi]

You make it sound like this is an unnatural position.
We have a lot of soldiers right here on earth who believe this. Its fine to fight other soldiers to keep your country/future safe. Burning women and children in their home goes to far.

This is not new or unnatural.
Saurfang basically supports the Geneva convention.

Yes, and we still consider those people deranged, not honorable. This is why so many soldiers can't really fit into society after war is over.

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You described almost every orc in existence, orcs thrive for war as long as they deem it honorable.

Its funny how as it is, saurfang is warhammer orc....soy edition.

[Hubbl3]

Yes, and we still consider those people deranged, not honorable. This is why so many soldiers can't really fit into society after war is over.

Exactly that.

[Combatbutler]

Its funny how as it is, saurfang is warhammer orc....soy edition.

Never order soy when you can have the original fungi

[Ungeir]

The Orcs are a shamanistic warrior-culture. Saurfang believes in a war as something which establishes the dominance of the strong over the weak. He would not have had any problems with Tel'drassil going up in flames during an extended siege and desperate battle. He would probably accept scorched earth for strategic purposes, as long as unnecessary cruelty was avoided.

But "the death of hope" brings memories of the mindless brutality the Horde were tainted with by the Legion - it brings memories of the intern camps and the broken Orcish spirit. And finally, necromancy brings memories of his son, who falls in battle but is raised to fight for the Lich King.

Yes, Orcs can and have shown brutality during warfare, and they are not averse to causing heavy collateral damage. There are brutal and cruel Orcs - just as there are very spritual and conflict-averse Orcs - but the majority are at neither extreme.

Saurfang isn't a traitor - he isn't blinded by honor - but he is a tired, old warrior who has been through hell and lost a lot. Now he sees a Warchief who will drag the Horde right back into the kind of hell he has been fighting to get the Horde out of. Orcs really don't like necromancy and demons. Yes, they have warlocks in-game, but in the lore they generally despise fel and dark magic. Sylvanas has brought the taint of dark magic to the Horde once more.

It's perfectly in-character that he's gone rogue and is really just hoping someone else will resolve his issue, without forcing him to fight against his own Horde. If anything there should be a bigger focus on the "traditional" elements of the Horde opposing the rampant use of necromancy by Sylvanas.

[Aucald]

wow, how noble of the traitor

Are you trying to imply that there is no difference between warfare and indiscriminate slaughter?

[Zulkhan]

Sylvanas is the traitor and always has been. She should've been executed when she blighted Gilneas against Garrosh' orders. How quick people turn around to defend their waifu.

"You traitorous bitch, didn't you know weapons of mass destruction are fine only when I'm the one using them?"

[Deleted]

I think that actually works in her favor.
She absolutely loved the city. She destroyed it before any would-be conquerors could take it.
Not just love: she is proud of the Undercity. And it ties her profoundly to the only people she cares, profoundly, for: the forsaken.
She's been fearing this retaliation since Theramore. She was prepared for it, and knew it would eventually fall. The siege is setback after setback; ultimately, deux-ex-jaina-machina forces her hand and has her trigger the last measure. It's unclear how many horde troops were caught, but that's what happens in moments of desperation. So it clearly falls under "means to an end" just as well.
Whatever the justification, she sacrificed her precious treasure, her actual throne. And she did it for the horde.

Precisely.

The Undercity is her life work, her crown achievement. A testament that she and her people, the Forsaken, suffered and endured through that suffering. That they were forged on a crucible of pain and emerged free. Free of the Lich King, free to make their own future. She sacrificed that crown achievement to burn, because she is truly loyal to the Horde. Her line of reasoning is sound, the Forsaken were hated from the first day. Inevitably, someone would come for them, to take Lordaeron from them. Better to make a preemptive strike then wait.

[tikcol]

Lost honor? He lost his balls too

[KaPe]

The Undercity is her life work, her crown achievement. A testament that she and her people, the Forsaken, suffered and endured through that suffering. That they were forged on a crucible of pain and emerged free. Free of the Lich King, free to make their own future. She sacrificed that crown achievement to burn, because she is truly loyal to the Horde. Her line of reasoning is sound, the Forsaken were hated from the first day. Inevitably, someone would come for them, to take Lordaeron from them. Better to make a preemptive strike then wait.

The Forsaken were hated from the first day... but the fact that they betrayed and murdered a human leader who made a deal with them certainly isn't helping. Sylvanas created her faction atop Garrithos still fresh corpse, while he was being devoured by ghouls. No matter how much of a scum he was, she completely ignored their deal, backstabbed him and made a Dreadlord her right hand. How can you not expect hostility after such an act is beyond me.

But no, it's those poor Forsaken being the victim here. If only those humans weren't so racist, we wouldn't have to murder them. Do you honestly not see the hypocrisy here? Really?

[Al Gorefiend]

I think the setup for the conflict is going into a civil war between the factions. There's no way in hell Tyrande, Genn and Jaina will stand by Anduin after he RELEASES THE ORC that almost killed Malfurion and LED A DAMN ATTACK in Ashenvale.

Called it. Civil war is happening, factions are going to splinter apart.

[Hubbl3]

The Forsaken were hated from the first day... but the fact that they betrayed and murdered a human leader who made a deal with them certainly isn't helping. Sylvanas created her faction atop Garrithos still fresh corpse, while he was being devoured by ghouls. No matter how much of a scum he was, she completely ignored their deal, backstabbed him and made a Dreadlord her right hand. How can you not expect hostility after such an act is beyond me.

But no, it's those poor Forsaken being the victim here. If only those humans weren't so racist, we wouldn't have to murder them. Do you honestly not see the hypocrisy here? Really?

I don't think the "normal" people knew about what has happen at UC with Garrithos, or do they? From an in-universe-perspective they hated the Forsaken because they were undead monsters associated with the downfall of the Kingdom and the Lich King. I mean that is totally reasonable, not going to argue that.

[KaPe]

I don't think the "normal" people knew about what has happen at UC with Garrithos, or do they? From an in-universe-perspective they hated the Forsaken because they were undead monsters associated with the downfall of the Kingdom and the Lich King. I mean that is totally reasonable, not going to argue that.

Still, just think about for a minute. Garrithos was willing to work with Sylvanas. Garrithos, a racist piece of shit, made an agreement that he was going to honor, only to be killed for it. If such fine examples of humanity can do it, surely more reasonable elements should be able as well.

And I wouldn't be surprised if some news made it elsewhere. Even if everyone got killed, there'd be some rumours floating around. "A whole Alliance army dissapeared around Sylvanas territory. Coincidence? I think not, these undead bastards must have done something."

[Deleted]

I'm extremely happy.

They're doing their best to finally do away with this Alliance vs Horde nonsense, which stopped making sense even before MoP.

The factional conflict in MoP was more about Garrosh v. World rather than Horde vs Alliance. After so many years, the underlying motive for AvH war is so stretched out that it's hardly enjoyable. It made sense in WC3, Orcs were a new tribe, they wanted land, they fucked with NElves and found allies in Kalimdor. They made a ragtag alliance with other races with problems and got along, years passed, animosities kind of evaporated, just move on already and remove the stupid faction restrictions.

Make PvP accessible in form of "kind of Caverns of Time" battlegrounds and arenas, world PvP for those who still want it, there is a way to make it all work.

Leave the cities as is, but allow visitors and every interaction like we're all part of one big family.

#RacesNotFactions

You do understand that the central theme of Warcraft universe has fundamentally always been war between the Horde and the Alliance. That is the soul of Warcraft universe.

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Are you trying to imply that there is no difference between warfare and indiscriminate slaughter?

Historically speaking, the difference between the two can get so thin that is becomes almost non-existent.

[Aucald]

Historically speaking, the difference between the two can get so thin that is becomes almost non-existent.

It can, yes - but there *is* a difference, sometimes and unfortunately only visible in hindsight when cooler heads have finally prevailed.

[Varodoc]

How does a dishonorable animal lose honor when they never even had an ounce of it in the first place?

[Deleted]

How does a dishonorable animal lose honor when they never even had an ounce of it in the first place?

For once, we actually agree. Saurfang may have had honour in times past, but all of that means nothing now when you look at his track record since BFA.

[Deleted]

It can, yes - but there *is* a difference, sometimes and unfortunately only visible in hindsight when cooler heads have finally prevailed.

Even then, many cultures of our past would not see shame in their massacres, only glory. For a very quick example, people in modern day Mongolia have almost religious adoration of Genghis Khan, Kublai Khan and other Khans. By all historical accounts, all these men were genocidal monsters.