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  1. #521
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    Quote Originally Posted by dontrelleroosevelt View Post
    I'm more disappointed that the Alliance have no interesting races with paladins.
    wut... dark iron not interesting race? they are literally paladins of the HOLY FLAME! BY FIRE BE CLEANSED!

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by dontrelleroosevelt View Post
    I'm more disappointed that the Alliance have no interesting races with paladins.
    What race would you expect to get alliance paladins then? Void Elves make zero sense. Kul Tiras humans are anything but interesting, and both races are an ass pull. They already made Kul Tirans to pander to all the people who wanted "human druids" and "human shamans" playable. The other 2 alliance allied races already got a paladin. Horde was in much bigger need of new paladin race, and I don't think we'll see Blizzard adding more classes to old races when they can add new allied races instead and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

  3. #523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Void Elves make zero sense.
    Hmm... Some of the Void Elves call themselves "Riftblades" and favor melee combat. What if we had Void Elf paladins whose abilities were colored purple? Same class, same spells, slightly different visuals. This would make much more sense than say Mag'har Orc holy priests, considering their hatred for Lightbound.

  4. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    wut... dark iron not interesting race? they are literally paladins of the HOLY FLAME! BY FIRE BE CLEANSED!
    Yeah, but they're just recolored dwarves, and they still run like they have a load in their pants lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    What race would you expect to get alliance paladins then? Void Elves make zero sense. Kul Tiras humans are anything but interesting, and both races are an ass pull. They already made Kul Tirans to pander to all the people who wanted "human druids" and "human shamans" playable. The other 2 alliance allied races already got a paladin. Horde was in much bigger need of new paladin race, and I don't think we'll see Blizzard adding more classes to old races when they can add new allied races instead and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
    We'll see what the last two Allied Races are; maybe go from there. I like Kul'Tiran, and I love the Void Elves. They're the only reason I have any desire to play Alliance! All twelve of my classes are Horde.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    What I meant was the "silent" type of retcon when nothing is openly claimed to be retconned, but newer information is at odds with the older one thus invalidating it. Zandalari were portrayed as scholars and historians up until Cataclysm, but since then they've been depicted differently.


    It's a bit too much to quote here, but you can check out Wowpedia articles on Zandalari, mogu, and slavery in general. The source material ranges from novels to in-game texts.


    Well, they certainly don't wield the Void or practice necromancy. Judging by what we see in-game, they are actually pretty limited to whatever power loa grant them (there's also Arcane taught to them by the mogu, but it's hardly shown anywhere and has no impact on the story). Zandalari monks and shaman may not even be considered canon as even after their introduction there is still zero evidence of them existing in the story.
    "Silent retcon"? Never heard of it. Mind sharing some of this "newer information" that invalidates the Zandalari being the overarching priest/historian caste for all of trolldome?

    Why are you arguing? I was agreeing with you.

    Source on the mogu teaching them the arcane? According to both ingame sources and Chronicles the Zandalari are masters of the arcane to such an extent they've been able to successfully combine it with shadow magic, something only the apexis have ever done.

    They're in the game, they're canon.

  6. #526
    Oh please let this thread die.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    "Silent retcon"? Never heard of it. Mind sharing some of this "newer information" that invalidates the Zandalari being the overarching priest/historian caste for all of trolldome?
    In the Blizzard's Troll Compendium which no longer exists, the Zandalari were portrayed as wise scholars who valued knowledge above all else. They were a peaceful people, and those of them who wanted conquest went their own ways and formed their own empires. However, later on the Zandalari were shown to actually value strength and power above all else: "There is no room for weakness among the Zandalari. Strength, ferocity, stamina, power: These are the traits by which success is measured." We were also told that they were not exactly peaceful. They actually had great military power and allied themselves with the mogu: "With back firmly set against back, mogu and trolls carved out their positions in the world." When the mogu were dethroned, the Zandalari waged war on the Pandaren to claim their lands. Post-Sundering, the Zandalari aided the Amani in their war against High Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Why are you arguing? I was agreeing with you.
    Must have misunderstood you then, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Source on the mogu teaching them the arcane? According to both ingame sources and Chronicles the Zandalari are masters of the arcane to such an extent they've been able to successfully combine it with shadow magic, something only the apexis have ever done.
    Chronicle, Volume 1: "Between 15,000 and 12,000 years ago, Zulathra, a high priest of the Zandalari, proposed to the mogu Emperor Lei Shen an exchange of each other's secrets; the mogu's arcane power for the trolls' knowledge of the lands beyond the vale. Together, the two empires would be unstoppable."

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    They're in the game, they're canon.
    But they are not supported by any lore, like at all. Not a single NPC, not a single mention anywhere. Besides, not everything that's in the game is canon. Draenei/Lightforged Shadow priests and Mag'har Orc Holy priests, for instance.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-06 at 02:41 AM.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    In the Blizzard's Troll Compendium which no longer exists, the Zandalari were portrayed as wise scholars who valued knowledge above all else. They were a peaceful people, and those of them who wanted conquest went their own ways and formed their own empires. However, later on the Zandalari were shown to actually value strength and power above all else: "There is no room for weakness among the Zandalari. Strength, ferocity, stamina, power: These are the traits by which success is measured." We were also told that they were not exactly peaceful. They actually had great military power and allied themselves with the mogu: "With back firmly set against back, mogu and trolls carved out their positions in the world." When the mogu were dethroned, the Zandalari waged war on the Pandaren to claim their lands. Post-Sundering, the Zandalari aided the Amani in their war against High Elves.


    Must have misunderstood you then, sorry.


    Chronicle, Volume 1: "Between 15,000 and 12,000 years ago, Zulathra, a high priest of the Zandalari, proposed to the mogu Emperor Lei Shen an exchange of each other's secrets; the mogu's arcane power for the trolls' knowledge of the lands beyond the vale. Together, the two empires would be unstoppable."


    But they are not supported by any lore, like at all. Not a single NPC, not a single mention anywhere. Besides, not everything that's in the game is canon. Draenei/Lightforged Shadow priests and Mag'har Orc Holy priests, for instance.
    Sounds to like you're saying that a race can't be scholars and strong fighters at the same time.

    So the mogu taught the zandalari arcane, who then surpassed them at it.

  9. #529
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Sounds to like you're saying that a race can't be scholars and strong fighters at the same time.
    It's one thing to be peaceful scholars who are content with studying on their island and strong fighters (old lore), but another one to have scholars in your ranks but on the whole be savage warlike warriors who wage wars and seek power and domination.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-06 at 03:27 AM.

  10. #530
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    This thread is dead, stop bringing it back.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    It's one thing to be peaceful scholars who are content with studying on their island and strong fighters (old lore), but another one to have scholars in your ranks but on the whole be savage warlike warriors who wage wars and seek power and domination.
    It's almost like civilizations are made up of individuals with different skills and professions. Nah.

  12. #532
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    It's almost like civilizations are made up of individuals with different skills and professions. Nah.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The way of life of the entire people in older lore and newer lore is strikingly different. It's not about individuals with different skills, it's about their approach to life and motivations on the whole.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The way of life of the entire people in older lore and newer lore is strikingly different. It's not about individuals with different skills, it's about their approach to life and motivations on the whole.
    I'm trying to tell you that that most of these 'differences' are in your head. You can value knowledge and strength at the same time. You can accumulate military power without attacking your allies, thereby being peaceful. Instead of looking at ways to go "Aha, Blizzard did another stupid retcon" did you ever stop to think "How can what we've been told before work together harmoniously with new lore?"

    Would you look at say Stormwind, and say that their value of strength and their desire for knowledge are muturally exclusive? Would you say that their powerful military means that they can't want peace? In the very thing you cited it said that those who wanted to conquer left to make their own kingdoms. Did we see the Zandalari, besides Old God servant Zul, going out to conquer people? No, they helped us.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2019-06-06 at 06:27 AM.

  14. #534
    you can't call zanda losing locks anything but a retcon.

    lore-wise, vanilla was at most 10 years ago, at the absolute most. bc was only like 5 or so years before legion. rastakhan has ruled zandalar for over 200 years, and we know that in vanilla, zandalari had demoniacs.

    their reasoning for there being no zanda locks was that the zandalari "had no connection to fel" and it's a load of shit, a retcon pure and simple. had they said that a recent priestly uprising, or a purge on demoniacs happened due to the legion invasion, THAT wouldn't have been a retcon. it'd still be lame to not have them, but it wouldn't be a retcon.

  15. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Instead of looking at ways to go "Aha, Blizzard did another stupid retcon" did you ever stop to think "How can what we've been told before work together harmoniously with new lore?"
    I'm actually doing it all the time in order not to lose interest in the story altogether. But sometimes, the old and the new simply won't work together because they say the opposite no matter how you try to spin it. Take Algalon, for example. The newer lore states that he was going to send the code directly to the Forge of Origination, but during the fight he says: "Your actions are illogical. All possible results for this encounter have been calculated. The Pantheon will receive the Observer's message regardless of outcome." How on earth can the old lore work together harmoniously with the new lore in this case?

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Did we see the Zandalari, besides Old God servant Zul, going out to conquer people? No, they helped us.
    Uhm, yes, we did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    When the mogu were dethroned, the Zandalari waged war on the Pandaren to claim their lands. Post-Sundering, the Zandalari aided the Amani in their war against High Elves.

  16. #536
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    I'm actually doing it all the time in order not to lose interest in the story altogether. But sometimes, the old and the new simply won't work together because they say the opposite no matter how you try to spin it. Take Algalon, for example. The newer lore states that he was going to send the code directly to the Forge of Origination, but during the fight he says: "Your actions are illogical. All possible results for this encounter have been calculated. The Pantheon will receive the Observer's message regardless of outcome." How on earth can the old lore work together harmoniously with the new lore in this case?


    Uhm, yes, we did.
    Algalon sends the message to the Forge of Origination, it re-originates the planet, Algalon sends his message to the Pantheon that he had to re-originate the planet. The universe is a big place. Besides we heroes and Ra-den, who knows the Titans were even killed before the events on Argus? Loken didn't know. Algalon didn't know. None of the Keepers knew. Saying you're going to send a message to your boss not knowing they're dead is not a retcon. Problem solved. Like I said, you're going out of your way to look for ways it doesn't work.

    Helping an ally put down an uprising, or helping an ally fight off invaders who want to steal their lands, is not going out to conquer people. Did they ever go to lands that weren't controlled by themselves or an ally and try to take it for themselves? That's the usual definition of conquest.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2019-06-06 at 07:42 PM.

  17. #537
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Algalon sends the message to the Forge of Origination, it re-originates the planet, Algalon sends his message to the Pantheon that he had to re-originate the planet. The universe is a big place. Besides we heroes and Ra-den, who knows the Titans were even killed before the events on Argus? Loken didn't know. Algalon didn't know. None of the Keepers knew. Saying you're going to send a message to your boss not knowing they're dead is not a retcon. Problem solved. Like I said, you're going out of your way to look for ways it doesn't work.
    Don't you see how ridiculous it sounds? Why would Algalon talk about sending a "message about the message" which was absolutely not relevant to the situation, but not the actual main message which it was all about? I mean, it's fine to make excuses, but they should be reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Helping an ally put down an uprising, or helping an ally fight off invaders who want to steal their lands, is not going out to conquer people. Did they ever go to lands that weren't controlled by themselves or an ally and try to take it for themselves? That's the usual definition of conquest.
    Could you please check the source material before making such claims? When the Zandalari invaded Pandaria, their allies were no more, different people were living there at the time. The Zandalari weren't trying to help anyone, they intended to conquer and take the land by force. Next, they weren't helping the Amani to fight off any invaders, you're confusing time periods. At the time, Quel'thalas was already a thing, had been a thing for millenia. The Zandalari helped the Amani to start an invasion so they could conquer their neighbour. Both of these cases are prime examples of the Zandalari "going out to conquer people".

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    Don't you see how ridiculous it sounds? Why would Algalon talk about sending a "message about the message" which was absolutely not relevant to the situation, but not the actual main message which it was all about? I mean, it's fine to make excuses, but they should be reasonable.


    Could you please check the source material before making such claims? When the Zandalari invaded Pandaria, their allies were no more, different people were living there at the time. The Zandalari weren't trying to help anyone, they intended to conquer and take the land by force. Next, they weren't helping the Amani to fight off any invaders, you're confusing time periods. At the time, Quel'thalas was already a thing, had been a thing for millenia. The Zandalari helped the Amani to start an invasion so they could conquer their neighbour. Both of these cases are prime examples of the Zandalari "going out to conquer people".
    If your job was watching out for Azeroth's world-soul, and you had to reoriginate the planet, wouldn't you go and tell your bosses that you had to do it.

    The zandalari come to help the mogu overthrow the pandaren who overthrew them, and you try to tell me the mogu are no more? You do realize that in primitive times communication was slower? Are you trying to use the fact that the zandalari didn't come to help the mogu retake pandaria right away as proof that they were conquerors? For instance the king of england wrote in his journal on July 4, 1776 that nothing important happened today. And the issue that caused the US to go to war with England in the War of 1812 was solved before the first battle was fought. And the most famous battle took place after the peace treaty was signed.

    Also, how long do occupiers have to live in occupied land before you believe the people who lived on the land first no longer have any right to try to take it back? Is it millenia for you? The high elves are occupiers of amani land. They built their city on a holy cemetary. Nothing will change that.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2019-06-07 at 02:48 AM.

  19. #539
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    If your job was watching out for Azeroth's world-soul, and you had to reoriginate the planet, wouldn't you go and tell your bosses that you had to do it.
    Sure, but as I already said you wouldn't be telling that to those who are trying to stop you because what's the point? They care about you destroying their planet, not about what you're going to tell your bosses afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    The zandalari come to help the mogu overthrow the pandaren who overthrew them, and you try to tell me the mogu are no more?
    Once again not checking the source material, aren't we? The mogu as a nation, as an empire were no more. The Zandalari couldn't care less about the scattered clans and their infighting. They invaded because they wanted the plot of land promised to them by Lei Shen.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You do realize that in primitive times communication was slower?
    You do realize that both peoples were masters of the arcane? You literally said that yourself a few posts ago. Stop grasping at straws.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Also, how long do occupiers have to live in occupied land before you believe the people who lived on the land first no longer have any right to try to take it back? Is it millenia for you? The high elves are occupiers of amani land. They built their city on a holy cemetary. Nothing will change that.
    Do you see the contemporary inhabitants of the American continent as occupiers and would support the natives fighting them as well?
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-07 at 11:56 PM.

  20. #540
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    I was pretty salty when I learned that Zanda Locks wouldn't be a thing.
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