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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    If you were an intelligent race whose empire and one you were allied to just lost a civil war, resulting in your allies losing their entire kingdom, wouldn't you look into how the peasants managed to overthrow their overlords? I'd find Zandalari NOT having monks to be more strange.

    It's no different than any other weapon. If your enemy invents it, you find out how it's made so you have it too.
    To my understanding, Zandalari didn't think that Pandaren had overthrown the Mogu because of their godlike martial arts. They thought that that had happened because the Mogu had relied on slavery too much which had made them weak (and that was not too far from the truth).

    However, all it would have taken Blizzard to justify Zandalari monks would have been to create an introductory quest telling us how some of them started worshipping new, previously unknown loa (August Celestials), and these new loa taught them how to be monks.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-04 at 03:26 AM.

  2. #522
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    To my understanding, Zandalari didn't think that Pandaren had overthrown the Mogu because of their godlike martial arts. They thought that that had happened because the Mogu had relied on slavery too much which had made them weak (and that was not too far from the truth).

    However, all it would have taken Blizzard to justify Zandalari monks would have been to create an introductory quest telling us how some of them started worshipping new, previously unknown loa (August Celestials), and these new loa taught them how to be monks.
    But the founder of the rebellion who killed the last emperor was a monk, the monks were the backbone of their army, and they certainly knew about the celestials. Remember the Zandalari are scholars and historians first and foremost. It's no stretch of the imagination that they would research how the monks got their abilities and, finding them to be powerful, would seek to use them themselves.

    As for the Celestials, they're some of the most mellow beings in existance. Look at all the damage Garrosh did, particularly to the Vale, and they admitted they knew he was going to get away and didn't do anything to stop it. I can totally see them teaching Zandalari monks, or at least enabling them, so long as those monks never tried to cause harm to Pandaria (there were no monks in Zul's fleet).

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    But the founder of the rebellion who killed the last emperor was a monk, the monks were the backbone of their army, and they certainly knew about the celestials. Remember the Zandalari are scholars and historians first and foremost. It's no stretch of the imagination that they would research how the monks got their abilities and, finding them to be powerful, would seek to use them themselves.

    As for the Celestials, they're some of the most mellow beings in existance. Look at all the damage Garrosh did, particularly to the Vale, and they admitted they knew he was going to get away and didn't do anything to stop it. I can totally see them teaching Zandalari monks, or at least enabling them, so long as those monks never tried to cause harm to Pandaria (there were no monks in Zul's fleet).
    Hasn't the scholars and historians part been retconned? I'm pretty sure they are now depicted as a society of warriors and priests who value strength above all else. Anyway, just look at this from their perspective. The Zandalari despise slavery and see it as weakness. The mogu come to rely on slavery more and more, their civilization is literally built by slaves and also maintained by them. At this point mogu must look pathetic in the eyes of the Zandalari. Then a rebellion happens, a rebellion orchestrated by slaves who taught themselves unarmed combat. And the slaves succeed. Are the Zandalari to think that the slaves somehow granted themselves godlike powers, or that the mogu became so weak that they got outsmarted by their own servants? I think the latter. Besides, nothing on Zandalar indicates that they were ever interested in monk fighting styles.

    Celestials are no more or less powerful than the loa of Zandalar, maybe just a bit wiser and more civilized. Both groups have their moments of strength and weakness.

    I'm sorry if it's difficult to understand me, I should really be sleeping right now.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-04 at 05:06 AM.

  4. #524
    I'm more disappointed that the Alliance have no interesting races with paladins.

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    Hasn't the scholars and historians part been retconned? I'm pretty sure they are now depicted as a society of warriors and priests who value strength above all else. Anyway, just look at this from their perspective. The Zandalari despise slavery and see it as weakness. The mogu come to rely on slavery more and more, their civilization is literally built by slaves and also maintained by them. At this point mogu must look pathetic in the eyes of the Zandalari. Then a rebellion happens, a rebellion orchestrated by slaves who taught themselves unarmed combat. And the slaves succeed. Are the Zandalari to think that the slaves somehow granted themselves godlike powers, or that the mogu became so weak that they got outsmarted by their own servants? I think the latter. Besides, nothing on Zandalar indicates that they were ever interested in monk fighting styles.

    Celestials are no more or less powerful than the loa of Zandalar, maybe just a bit wiser and more civilized. Both groups have their moments of strength and weakness.

    I'm sorry if it's difficult to understand me, I should really be sleeping right now.
    I never heard anything about the scholars and historians part being retconned.

    Also everything you said about the mogu and zandalari and how they interacted.

    Though I'd have to say the proof is in the pudding. The Zandalari wield just about anything that will make them stronger besides fel and blood magic.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    I never heard anything about the scholars and historians part being retconned.
    What I meant was the "silent" type of retcon when nothing is openly claimed to be retconned, but newer information is at odds with the older one thus invalidating it. Zandalari were portrayed as scholars and historians up until Cataclysm, but since then they've been depicted differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Also everything you said about the mogu and zandalari and how they interacted.
    It's a bit too much to quote here, but you can check out Wowpedia articles on Zandalari, mogu, and slavery in general. The source material ranges from novels to in-game texts.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Though I'd have to say the proof is in the pudding. The Zandalari wield just about anything that will make them stronger besides fel and blood magic.
    Well, they certainly don't wield the Void or practice necromancy. Judging by what we see in-game, they are actually pretty limited to whatever power loa grant them (there's also Arcane taught to them by the mogu, but it's hardly shown anywhere and has no impact on the story). Zandalari monks and shaman may not even be considered canon as even after their introduction there is still zero evidence of them existing in the story.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-04 at 04:19 PM.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by dontrelleroosevelt View Post
    I'm more disappointed that the Alliance have no interesting races with paladins.
    wut... dark iron not interesting race? they are literally paladins of the HOLY FLAME! BY FIRE BE CLEANSED!
    Quote Originally Posted by Eleccybubb View Post
    Azerite is absolutely RNG you are right. You have no idea what traits will be on that piece you got from a random source until you roll it. I've literally had a Warfront piece that had the "opposite faction" passive and no passive/proc for my spec but it did for the other 2.

  8. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by dontrelleroosevelt View Post
    I'm more disappointed that the Alliance have no interesting races with paladins.
    What race would you expect to get alliance paladins then? Void Elves make zero sense. Kul Tiras humans are anything but interesting, and both races are an ass pull. They already made Kul Tirans to pander to all the people who wanted "human druids" and "human shamans" playable. The other 2 alliance allied races already got a paladin. Horde was in much bigger need of new paladin race, and I don't think we'll see Blizzard adding more classes to old races when they can add new allied races instead and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    Void Elves make zero sense.
    Hmm... Some of the Void Elves call themselves "Riftblades" and favor melee combat. What if we had Void Elf paladins whose abilities were colored purple? Same class, same spells, slightly different visuals. This would make much more sense than say Mag'har Orc holy priests, considering their hatred for Lightbound.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by FelPlague View Post
    wut... dark iron not interesting race? they are literally paladins of the HOLY FLAME! BY FIRE BE CLEANSED!
    Yeah, but they're just recolored dwarves, and they still run like they have a load in their pants lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    What race would you expect to get alliance paladins then? Void Elves make zero sense. Kul Tiras humans are anything but interesting, and both races are an ass pull. They already made Kul Tirans to pander to all the people who wanted "human druids" and "human shamans" playable. The other 2 alliance allied races already got a paladin. Horde was in much bigger need of new paladin race, and I don't think we'll see Blizzard adding more classes to old races when they can add new allied races instead and kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
    We'll see what the last two Allied Races are; maybe go from there. I like Kul'Tiran, and I love the Void Elves. They're the only reason I have any desire to play Alliance! All twelve of my classes are Horde.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    What I meant was the "silent" type of retcon when nothing is openly claimed to be retconned, but newer information is at odds with the older one thus invalidating it. Zandalari were portrayed as scholars and historians up until Cataclysm, but since then they've been depicted differently.


    It's a bit too much to quote here, but you can check out Wowpedia articles on Zandalari, mogu, and slavery in general. The source material ranges from novels to in-game texts.


    Well, they certainly don't wield the Void or practice necromancy. Judging by what we see in-game, they are actually pretty limited to whatever power loa grant them (there's also Arcane taught to them by the mogu, but it's hardly shown anywhere and has no impact on the story). Zandalari monks and shaman may not even be considered canon as even after their introduction there is still zero evidence of them existing in the story.
    "Silent retcon"? Never heard of it. Mind sharing some of this "newer information" that invalidates the Zandalari being the overarching priest/historian caste for all of trolldome?

    Why are you arguing? I was agreeing with you.

    Source on the mogu teaching them the arcane? According to both ingame sources and Chronicles the Zandalari are masters of the arcane to such an extent they've been able to successfully combine it with shadow magic, something only the apexis have ever done.

    They're in the game, they're canon.

  12. #532
    Oh please let this thread die.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    "Silent retcon"? Never heard of it. Mind sharing some of this "newer information" that invalidates the Zandalari being the overarching priest/historian caste for all of trolldome?
    In the Blizzard's Troll Compendium which no longer exists, the Zandalari were portrayed as wise scholars who valued knowledge above all else. They were a peaceful people, and those of them who wanted conquest went their own ways and formed their own empires. However, later on the Zandalari were shown to actually value strength and power above all else: "There is no room for weakness among the Zandalari. Strength, ferocity, stamina, power: These are the traits by which success is measured." We were also told that they were not exactly peaceful. They actually had great military power and allied themselves with the mogu: "With back firmly set against back, mogu and trolls carved out their positions in the world." When the mogu were dethroned, the Zandalari waged war on the Pandaren to claim their lands. Post-Sundering, the Zandalari aided the Amani in their war against High Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Why are you arguing? I was agreeing with you.
    Must have misunderstood you then, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Source on the mogu teaching them the arcane? According to both ingame sources and Chronicles the Zandalari are masters of the arcane to such an extent they've been able to successfully combine it with shadow magic, something only the apexis have ever done.
    Chronicle, Volume 1: "Between 15,000 and 12,000 years ago, Zulathra, a high priest of the Zandalari, proposed to the mogu Emperor Lei Shen an exchange of each other's secrets; the mogu's arcane power for the trolls' knowledge of the lands beyond the vale. Together, the two empires would be unstoppable."

    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    They're in the game, they're canon.
    But they are not supported by any lore, like at all. Not a single NPC, not a single mention anywhere. Besides, not everything that's in the game is canon. Draenei/Lightforged Shadow priests and Mag'har Orc Holy priests, for instance.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-06 at 02:41 AM.

  14. #534
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    In the Blizzard's Troll Compendium which no longer exists, the Zandalari were portrayed as wise scholars who valued knowledge above all else. They were a peaceful people, and those of them who wanted conquest went their own ways and formed their own empires. However, later on the Zandalari were shown to actually value strength and power above all else: "There is no room for weakness among the Zandalari. Strength, ferocity, stamina, power: These are the traits by which success is measured." We were also told that they were not exactly peaceful. They actually had great military power and allied themselves with the mogu: "With back firmly set against back, mogu and trolls carved out their positions in the world." When the mogu were dethroned, the Zandalari waged war on the Pandaren to claim their lands. Post-Sundering, the Zandalari aided the Amani in their war against High Elves.


    Must have misunderstood you then, sorry.


    Chronicle, Volume 1: "Between 15,000 and 12,000 years ago, Zulathra, a high priest of the Zandalari, proposed to the mogu Emperor Lei Shen an exchange of each other's secrets; the mogu's arcane power for the trolls' knowledge of the lands beyond the vale. Together, the two empires would be unstoppable."


    But they are not supported by any lore, like at all. Not a single NPC, not a single mention anywhere. Besides, not everything that's in the game is canon. Draenei/Lightforged Shadow priests and Mag'har Orc Holy priests, for instance.
    Sounds to like you're saying that a race can't be scholars and strong fighters at the same time.

    So the mogu taught the zandalari arcane, who then surpassed them at it.

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Sounds to like you're saying that a race can't be scholars and strong fighters at the same time.
    It's one thing to be peaceful scholars who are content with studying on their island and strong fighters (old lore), but another one to have scholars in your ranks but on the whole be savage warlike warriors who wage wars and seek power and domination.
    Last edited by Trollokdamus; 2019-06-06 at 03:27 AM.

  16. #536
    The Lightbringer TriHard's Avatar
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    This thread is dead, stop bringing it back.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    It's one thing to be peaceful scholars who are content with studying on their island and strong fighters (old lore), but another one to have scholars in your ranks but on the whole be savage warlike warriors who wage wars and seek power and domination.
    It's almost like civilizations are made up of individuals with different skills and professions. Nah.

  18. #538
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    It's almost like civilizations are made up of individuals with different skills and professions. Nah.
    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The way of life of the entire people in older lore and newer lore is strikingly different. It's not about individuals with different skills, it's about their approach to life and motivations on the whole.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Trollokdamus View Post
    I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The way of life of the entire people in older lore and newer lore is strikingly different. It's not about individuals with different skills, it's about their approach to life and motivations on the whole.
    I'm trying to tell you that that most of these 'differences' are in your head. You can value knowledge and strength at the same time. You can accumulate military power without attacking your allies, thereby being peaceful. Instead of looking at ways to go "Aha, Blizzard did another stupid retcon" did you ever stop to think "How can what we've been told before work together harmoniously with new lore?"

    Would you look at say Stormwind, and say that their value of strength and their desire for knowledge are muturally exclusive? Would you say that their powerful military means that they can't want peace? In the very thing you cited it said that those who wanted to conquer left to make their own kingdoms. Did we see the Zandalari, besides Old God servant Zul, going out to conquer people? No, they helped us.
    Last edited by cparle87; 2019-06-06 at 06:27 AM.

  20. #540
    you can't call zanda losing locks anything but a retcon.

    lore-wise, vanilla was at most 10 years ago, at the absolute most. bc was only like 5 or so years before legion. rastakhan has ruled zandalar for over 200 years, and we know that in vanilla, zandalari had demoniacs.

    their reasoning for there being no zanda locks was that the zandalari "had no connection to fel" and it's a load of shit, a retcon pure and simple. had they said that a recent priestly uprising, or a purge on demoniacs happened due to the legion invasion, THAT wouldn't have been a retcon. it'd still be lame to not have them, but it wouldn't be a retcon.
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