M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[Ashdal]

Thats the problem, and this is why raider.io exists. Your ilvl no longer indicate your progress. In vanilla through to mopish you could look at a gear score and see that someone has done the appropriate thigs to get that ilvl. Any one who is pissed at raider.io but like the warforge/titanforge system are ridiculous.

It's never the tool, the problem lies on the people.

Anyone can agree that something like rio has a function and it's a useful tool to have, but when that tool is used for other purposes like asking for certain score below +5 or whatever, the problem lies in how people are trying to get advantage of that system to get carried.

Because let's face it, anyone doing 1 afflix/+6 mythics above 350ilvl and looking for 370+ilvl people with great rio scores are just using the tool to cover their own inhability, they're just in a position were they get to do that because they take the "headache" of building a group and grinded world quests for the best ilvl you can get at the lowest level of gameplay, but they're still "exploiting" that tool.

[steelmaggot]

And the sooner you are able to find a more less stable group of people to play with the better.

I can tell by your history you do m+ just for the weekly cache. 6/8Mythic yet cant time keys. proof the scoring system works as intended. (383 ilvl btw)

[Marrilaife]

Except it's no different than it was in Classic. Have you tried pugging as a moonkin in Classic or TBC? I did. Stopped pretty fast.

Yeah, but we went long way from classic / tbc and we had several expansions of "play what you want unless you're world top", however last 2 expansions of "pruning", "class fantasy" and "returning to the roots" are bringing back nightmares of classic where all the ret palas, ferals, shadows, eles are told "lul ur class is 4 heal".

Nope, it's not "as bad" class balance wise, as in vanilla there was literally none, but we're getting awfully close to the community perception "wanna play a dps, pick mage, warlock, hunter, rogue", we also have new class demon hunter that joins the melee camp and new class dk (that is mostly delegated to be a m+ tank because the dps variant isn't held in high esteem) and a new class monk that is mostly taken as a healer in general, and tank for raids (for m+ people still ask for blood dk).

I had fun playing ele shaman in cata / mop and shadow priest in wod but nowadays they're considered "meme specs". It feels like the game development is going backwards instead of forward.

Specs like prot warrior have big reason to be outraged because the classic vanilla tank got pushed into "good for nothing" spot, tanks aren't viable for pvp, for pve you have raids where monks dominate, m+ where dks dominate, and rest of the tank specs hopelessly lag behind. What's the point of adding tanks to the game, we went from 1 class considered designed to be tank in vanilla to 6 now, but the devs don't want people to play half of them as they didn't carve any proper niche for them or make them comparably good in the existing niches.

Content development seems to be lacking any communication and collaboration with class development department. If some specs were good in raids, but bad in m+, or good in pvp but weak in pve, that would be fine, but we have specs that are good in both (frost mage, assa rogue, havoc) and specs that are fighting to find any place at all (mm hunter, ele shaman, ret, half the tanks).

[steristumpie]

Blizzard will step up and get rid of rio if we keep pushing the toxicity it perpetuates. Just keep at it guys.
They did the same with oqeue and gearscore.

Blizzard has always said they’d rather have us fighting with Blizzard than fighting with each other.
And just like every time Blizzard got rid of these addons, mmoc was lit up with posts of “GG I WONT CARRY BADDIES, UNSUBBING”
And the game went on regardless.

Keep fighting the good fight, they will scrap rio.

[amaze123]

Blizzard will step up and get rid of rio if we keep pushing the toxicity it perpetuates. Just keep at it guys.
They did the same with oqeue and gearscore.

Blizzard has always said they’d rather have us fighting with Blizzard than fighting with each other.
And just like every time Blizzard got rid of these addons, mmoc was lit up with posts of “GG I WONT CARRY BADDIES, UNSUBBING”
And the game went on regardless.

Keep fighting the good fight, they will scrap rio.

No, because as soon as raider.io is gone high m+ dies.

[Faesroll]

No, because as soon as raider.io is gone high m+ dies.

No it won't.

[Lilija]

I can tell by your history you do m+ just for the weekly cache. 6/8Mythic yet cant time keys. proof the scoring system works as intended. (383 ilvl btw)

And how does that relate to what I have said? I don't recall saying anything about scoring system and I am not here saying I have a problem with m+ The score is needed ONLY for pugs. And there is no incentive for me to do keys in time so I just yolo them with my friends having a laugh. I was relating to the nature of pug world which is exactly the same since Vanilla when it comes to a bit more challenging content.

[Deleted]

Blizzard will step up and get rid of rio if we keep pushing the toxicity it perpetuates. Just keep at it guys.
They did the same with oqeue and gearscore.

Blizzard has always said they’d rather have us fighting with Blizzard than fighting with each other.
And just like every time Blizzard got rid of these addons, mmoc was lit up with posts of “GG I WONT CARRY BADDIES, UNSUBBING”
And the game went on regardless.

Keep fighting the good fight, they will scrap rio.

raider io is necessary to seperate players with basic mechanics from players who never kicked in their whole life

in a game where every trashcan can achieve 370+ without trying you need something to indicate skill level otherwise m+ pugging will be dead on the spot

[Lilija]

Yeah, but we went long way from classic / tbc and we had several expansions of "play what you want unless you're world top", however last 2 expansions of "pruning", "class fantasy" and "returning to the roots" are bringing back nightmares of classic where all the ret palas, ferals, shadows, eles are told "lul ur class is 4 heal".

I think this is generally a problem of unfinished products. Classic has tons of holes in it and BfA class balance is horrific because it was not finished properly due to Azerite system flopping and Blizzard not taking the only reasonable route and that would delaying the release of BfA to next year at least.

Nope, it's not "as bad" class balance wise, as in vanilla there was literally none, but we're getting awfully close to the community perception "wanna play a dps, pick mage, warlock, hunter, rogue", we also have new class demon hunter that joins the melee camp and new class dk (that is mostly delegated to be a m+ tank because the dps variant isn't held in high esteem) and a new class monk that is mostly taken as a healer in general, and tank for raids (for m+ people still ask for blood dk).

Moonkins have a decent perception currently. But yeah, I totally get you, there is a problem but it's not easy to solve by Blizzard because it is mainly the issue of community perception of what is vialable which was never truly connected to the reality. This is why I think looking for a more less stable group to play with is something good to aim for because only in that environment you will have higher chance to be treated as what you are and to play what you wanna play the way you wanna play. Even that isn't perfect. I almost quit raiding because of the spec imbalance and now I stick around because we got to the bosses where my spec doesn't feel like it doesn't belong there. Tho tbh I am in a whole WoW existential crisis right now but I need to figure out how much of that is coming from my real life and how much is the game itself (tho for sure there is a list of thing I could blame the game for)

Anyway, I didn't really come here to defend Blizzard just pointing out that the problem isn't exactly new and there are solutions we can use as players. And I could imagine people who didn't go thru early WoW might not be as familiar with those as the old timers.

[b1ackbird]

Sad reality is people could possibly still not invite you if your score is 'low'. 382 or not. RaiderIO > all. I'v seen that in my own groups.

"Take the 382 tank?"
"No take the 374 one with rio 850, the 382 only has rio 720".

This is just taking one metric over the other. Who says ilvl is a better skill representation?

[La]

raider io is necessary to seperate players with basic mechanics from players who never kicked in their whole life

in a game where every trashcan can achieve 370+ without trying you need something to indicate skill level otherwise m+ pugging will be dead on the spot

I'm 6/8 with AOTC and get declined on a 383 MW, with mostly all 85+ rankings. My io score is 690 because I only do 1 10 a week in a random pug with usually meh players, who on weeks like this are carried by me healing them. oddly enough, even my skill isn't good enough, because my 690 isn't 1000.

If you're a DH, guess what? You could easily get a 1k io, just because you're a meh player with 2 other good DPS and a PL that puts a meta group together, and you're a meta class that gets insta invites. judging based on ilvl wouldn't be that great, or accurate, you might not really know what you get. I used to armory people back then but...honestly raid io is bad for the overall health of Mythic Plus, it's just...good in other ways.

[cronotose]

It's kind of sad that when I saw the word "toxic", my brain assumed you were making a political statement.

That's how much they use that word.

[Nutri]

W

This is just taking one metric over the other. Who says ilvl is a better skill representation?

Absolutely nothing. In my opinion doing a +10 with either tank would have worked. In fact, what is a good skill representation?
I’d say friendlist a guy and do 5 runs with him to see if he’s any good. But who does that, right?

[Deleted]

I'm 6/8 with AOTC and get declined on a 383 MW, with mostly all 85+ rankings. My io score is 690 because I only do 1 10 a week in a random pug with usually meh players, who on weeks like this are carried by me healing them. oddly enough, even my skill isn't good enough, because my 690 isn't 1000.

If you're a DH, guess what? You could easily get a 1k io, just because you're a meh player with 2 other good DPS and a PL that puts a meta group together, and you're a meta class that gets insta invites. judging based on ilvl wouldn't be that great, or accurate, you might not really know what you get. I used to armory people back then but...honestly raid io is bad for the overall health of Mythic Plus

being a meta class has nothing to do with raider.io however. Thats blizzard balancing. Classes like rogues/dh/bdk/boomkin are simply overtuned for M+, while other classes literally offer nothing to speak of, such as warriors for example. The utility of some classes compard to others is just plain off in BFA and was in legion as well.

Raider.io actually helps non meta classes to get a group because you can play a "sht" class, but with a high score you might get invited after all.

[Magnagarde]

No system is perfect and elitism, toxicity and everything else comes along with whatever gameplay requires a certain dose of competitive mentality.

This is how M+ will be for you unless you find players to do keys with all the time and there's nothing wrong with it, at least not in a broad sense of gaming.

[Deleted]

As a shadow priest I have 387ilvl, 8/8M, 1600Rio, world first dht30 in time in Legion. Rank 1 on warcraft logs.

Got declined from a +10 today, 'sry dont need a shadow'

[Surreality]

Wait a sec checking raider.io

dude im 382 and its a m4 atal, im just bored

That's your own fault. Why are you even bothering with a M4 at 382? So you can whine about being bored and how terrible the game is because you outgear the content you choose to play?

[Lilija]

its not company perception, its because the game design is fucked.

We have for all intent in purpouse 36 classes in the game. You are hard locked in your spec, you are not an warrior, you are an arms warrior, competing with a furry warrior, and could fullfill the role of a protection warrior.

There is no way, even if blizzard would be the best devs in the world, to actually balance all of them out WITHOUT making them incredibly dull and samey which they even admitted. Its like saying a moba with 100 heroes should make all of them competetive viable. Doesnt work.

I am not disagreeing with you on the core statment, the thing is that what you want aint happenign without basiacly scraping the whole system of specs

I know there cannot be perfection ever but we can have a working spec balance. It was happening occasionally - was not perfect but the vast majority of specs mostly worked in WoD and Legion (the latter had bigger issue with encounter design being to focused on certain type of utility). And well, as somehow who is mostly interested in the actual spec gameplay rather than diversity of utility I am fine with some amount of homogenization with "class fantasy" as the variation (I mean I am playing a boomkin since Vanilla for a reason while focusing on the harder content).

But while game state and the community perception are interconnected, my experience discussing the state of the game with various people thru out WoW lifespan I have seen many examples of people being obsessed with things that weren't really true for the level of game they were playing. I mean for example people look at sims and treat that as a bible while not realizing that those sims they are mostly exposed to do not present actually real in game situations as patchwerk encounters do not exist. Even mostly single target encounters have either some heavy movement, some breaks, some other tasks, some adds, etc. And this all matters. The problem with the community perception is that people want things faster so they go to solutions someone on the top has already discovered instead of trying their own solution because in a pug world the possibility of failure is too great. So while you play with friends you will work out some strange comps that work, it will not happen in the world of pugs where people follow just one tested path. I mean I was a raiding moonkin in TBC and the reason why I stopped my progression after Brutallus was because my server was dying and both our tanks quit after we killed that boss so you can imagine the rest. And well, new guild didn't want a moonkin on KJ because of their perception of the spec. People like to do stuff with fotm comps but it doesn't mean it's not doable with any comp especially on the game level that the majority plays yet most pugs will not risk it.

[steelmaggot]

so I see two sides here.

Player A: I worked for my worth and experience, why should i chance wasting my time on a wild card when I can build a dream team to succeed?
Player B: I enjoy other aspects of the game and I do M+ rarely because it is a gearing path, and i expect my lack of experience to be ignored because I'm good, promise


am i missing something?

[Marrilaife]

you whole rambling doesnt make sense, playing m+ keys was not a thing back then. Mhytic+ dungeons are pve endgame. if you miss cata/mop go play heroic dungeons and heroic raids.

Did CM gold in MOP as ele shaman and the spec was actually good.

Btw "hc raiding" back then what's called mythic now. And old normal is current heroic.

But let's pretend the problem isn't class design going backwards.