M+ increasingly toxic and elitest

[Deja Thoris]

Yes it is getting more toxic and more elites, i have been doing +10's and 11's for like 2 months or more maybe, i am having to search a longer and longer time every week with more declines for a group for a +10 at 383 item level on my warlock because my raider io is low because i have not done all the dungeons in time as i avoid a few like King's Rest*altogether or (shrine of the storm which i have done at +11 but never in time with pugs) when it comes to pugs and my guild is more relaxed in bfa. Honestly if i had the time and got a dedicated group of people i am sure i could be doing +15 in time now with the recent demo changes.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...=4&partition=1
https://raider.io/characters/us/zuljin/Thalyssras

by no means do i think i am the best warlock in thew world, but people are lazy assholes who think a number will tell them how good i am. Hell i have not killed heroic G'hunn yet as a warlock and i cna get into any group i want but most of the groups suck and many of them i was number 1 dps as a DEMO warlock and die to stupidity. If my guild did not fall into a relaxed state till the next raid i probably would have the kill but the 1 night they got it was the night i couldn't make it and thats when half the guild basically went afk till 8.1. WHihc is like msot guilds including mythic ones, as G'huun is not worth the trouble for his loot or the hassle to lead.

and the best part is i do all of this with ZERO ADD-ons unless you count 3D portraits as *enhancing my game play* or faking out my guild leader*long story on this one* who wanted to force us to use DBM by installing and disabling all of it's features making it a glorified pull timer that i don't even need or use when i can see people flask and leader still called pulls in discord......

Whats toxic and elitist about not taking people like you?

Seriously, so many dps sign up to keys if an algorythm just randomly picked one chances are you'd never be picked. You aren't that important, you're one of many and you've done nothing to make a person think you'd be an asset to the group compared to anyone else.

[dacoolist]

Whats toxic and elitist about not taking people like you?

Seriously, so many dps sign up to keys if an algorythm just randomly picked one chances are you'd never be picked. You aren't that important, you're one of many and you've done nothing to make a person think you'd be an asset to the group compared to anyone else.

I mean no offense but Deja T is right.. Why take someone with a lower IO vs someone who's got maybe even 200-300 above YOU even.. I mean, just taking the better player overall right?

[Marrilaife]

Whats toxic and elitist about not taking people like you?

Seriously, so many dps sign up to keys if an algorythm just randomly picked one chances are you'd never be picked. You aren't that important, you're one of many and you've done nothing to make a person think you'd be an asset to the group compared to anyone else.

Tbh without knowing the player's skill / credentials just by class I'd rather pick an ele shaman over warlock, at least I can expect interrupts and purges from the shaman, and their aoe rotation is 2 buttons so low chance to fail.

Unless I know the warlock or he has a proof that he's good, that's a different case.

Now about curve, no idea, cuz warlock is THE class that people invite for Ghuun. Could probably even poke around other guilds if he can tag along for a reclear to get curve, if he's as good as he says, who would really mind an extra gateway and loot is personal so nothing to lose.

[ID811717]

I have been joining some +10-13 keys on alts, and I'm amazed how likely people are to bail once the key appears to be depleted. They might quit even if you indicated you don't aim to time the key. They often don't say anything, just silently drop the group. Most often the quitters do as many mistakes as anyone else in group (sometimes they are THE cause of things going wrong). If you look up the chat, you sometimes realize these people also did not say "hello" upon joining the group, and neither they said anything else.

There is just no accountability for quitting most M+ pugs. If anyone's goal is to push keys (and score) up in low keys above +10, I can see why they could be as picky as their imagination allows them to be.

[notarealwizard]

It's tilting to navigate the +10-12 bracket on alts.

I'm an above-average-ish player that does one M+ per week. On my new main (which is currently 385 ilvl, 2200 pvp, 8/8M Uldir, and <500 io score). Pugging goes like this: I will get silently declined for low score. Once accepted, various party members will threaten to leave the group unless I am replaced because my score is too low. Once inside of a key, players think they are God's gift to mankind for "carrying" me. The dungeon itself is a terrible experience. If i point out another player's mistake (i.e. alerting the tank someone facepulled so I dont get healer agro), then I will be met with some toxic jerk telling me to shut up and mind my own business. (I shouldn't point out mistakes, I'm being score-carried.) Oh, and If I make a mistake, I've now lived up to my low scoring expectations, inviting everyone to trash talk me. My bad dudes If at any point someone quits, the process starts over again.

But I'm one of the fortunate ones. This experience is only a temporary inconvenience. I can weasel into groups by linking a plethora of achievements showing I'm a decent-enough player (Every raid CE since highmaul, realm first WoD CMs, realm first +15 legion keymaster, 2200 pvp current season, rank1 prog parses, etc). Alternatively, I just run keys with friends & guildies, which also raises my IO. Eventually, my alts get a score that is deemed "Acceptable" & groups which were previously inaccessible now can't wait to invite me (funny how that works). But for new players, I worry that this experience is not so temporary. They don't have a backlog of achievements to weasel into groups, or as many friends/guildies willing to run with them. I worry that it could be hurting the game by shutting people out when it's not necessary (esp. in <= +10s).

Raider.io is great cause it gives people another avenue to enjoy the game, but like everything else, the playerbase def takes it too far

[Deleted]

It's tilting to navigate the +10-12 bracket on alts.

I'm an above-average-ish player that does one M+ per week. On my new main (which is currently 385 ilvl, 2200 pvp, 8/8M Uldir, and <500 io score). Pugging goes like this: I will get silently declined for low score. Once accepted, various party members will threaten to leave the group unless I am replaced because my score is too low. Once inside of a key, players think they are God's gift to mankind for "carrying" me. The dungeon itself is a terrible experience. If i point out another player's mistake (i.e. alerting the tank someone facepulled so I dont get healer agro), then I will be met with some toxic jerk telling me to shut up and mind my own business. (I shouldn't point out mistakes, I'm being score-carried.) Oh, and If I make a mistake, I've now lived up to my low scoring expectations, inviting everyone to trash talk me. My bad dudes If at any point someone quits, the process starts over again.

But I'm one of the fortunate ones. This experience is only a temporary inconvenience. I can weasel into groups by linking a plethora of achievements showing I'm a decent-enough player (Every raid CE since highmaul, realm first WoD CMs, realm first +15 legion keymaster, 2200 pvp current season, rank1 prog parses, etc). Alternatively, I just run keys with friends & guildies, which also raises my IO. Eventually, my alts get a score that is deemed "Acceptable" & groups which were previously inaccessible now can't wait to invite me (funny how that works). But for new players, I worry that this experience is not so temporary. They don't have a backlog of achievements to weasel into groups, or as many friends/guildies willing to run with them. I worry that it could be hurting the game by shutting people out when it's not necessary (esp. in <= +10s).

Raider.io is great cause it gives people another avenue to enjoy the game, but like everything else, the playerbase def takes it too far

So what you are saying is, people should be judged by their actual experience instead of an almost-random number some algorithm 99% of the playerbase are too dense to comprehend coughed up?

Shocking.

I was in a similar situation as you are right now.
My solution however, is imo the better one: I let my subscription to this toxic daycare center run out 24 days ago, and will only re-activate it once classic servers become available :-)

[Interim]

Yes it is getting more toxic and more elites, i have been doing +10's and 11's for like 2 months or more maybe, i am having to search a longer and longer time every week with more declines for a group for a +10 at 383 item level on my warlock because my raider io is low because i have not done all the dungeons in time as i avoid a few like King's Rest*altogether or (shrine of the storm which i have done at +11 but never in time with pugs) when it comes to pugs and my guild is more relaxed in bfa. Honestly if i had the time and got a dedicated group of people i am sure i could be doing +15 in time now with the recent demo changes.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...=4&partition=1
https://raider.io/characters/us/zuljin/Thalyssras

by no means do i think i am the best warlock in thew world, but people are lazy assholes who think a number will tell them how good i am. Hell i have not killed heroic G'hunn yet as a warlock and i cna get into any group i want but most of the groups suck and many of them i was number 1 dps as a DEMO warlock and die to stupidity. If my guild did not fall into a relaxed state till the next raid i probably would have the kill but the 1 night they got it was the night i couldn't make it and thats when half the guild basically went afk till 8.1. WHihc is like msot guilds including mythic ones, as G'huun is not worth the trouble for his loot or the hassle to lead.

and the best part is i do all of this with ZERO ADD-ons unless you count 3D portraits as *enhancing my game play* or faking out my guild leader*long story on this one* who wanted to force us to use DBM by installing and disabling all of it's features making it a glorified pull timer that i don't even need or use when i can see people flask and leader still called pulls in discord......

cause everyone should be included in everything? you are. you can get into all kinds of stuff lower than a 10. I guess your entitled to cutting edge too cause all the elites are getting it?

as for ilvl... irrelevant. Thank blizzard for making it possible for the 1 day a week player to have the same ilvl as a mythic raider.

[Marrilaife]

I was in a similar situation as you are right now.
My solution however, is imo the better one: I let my subscription to this toxic daycare center run out 24 days ago, and will only re-activate it once classic servers become available :-)

I'm really wondering if classic servers will re-create it, but you know what vanilla had, that is all but gone now? Sense of community. Value of guilds. It wasn't "everything solo or puggable".

[Stacie]

Just avoid pugging. I used to pug (server was dead) ended up moving to a large server and joining a few guilds on a few toons. There are allot of guilds that have a heavy focus on m+. with multiple toons in multiple guilds i always have players to run with. my friends list in game and on discord is full of people willing to do keys.

pugging you just end up with players ether above or below your skill level. good and bad players who dont know or owe each other anything is always going to be toxic when someone fails

[kaminaris]

When I do M+ with pug i run with discord or voice chat and honestly?

People are nice, doing good job.

Way better than it used to be before. I have completely different experience.
If you make your groups with voice chat (any kind) It will be a lot better.

[Denso]

Yes it is getting more toxic and more elites, i have been doing +10's and 11's for like 2 months or more maybe, i am having to search a longer and longer time every week with more declines for a group for a +10 at 383 item level on my warlock because my raider io is low because i have not done all the dungeons in time as i avoid a few like King's Rest*altogether or (shrine of the storm which i have done at +11 but never in time with pugs) when it comes to pugs and my guild is more relaxed in bfa. Honestly if i had the time and got a dedicated group of people i am sure i could be doing +15 in time now with the recent demo changes.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/charact...=4&partition=1
https://raider.io/characters/us/zuljin/Thalyssras

by no means do i think i am the best warlock in thew world, but people are lazy assholes who think a number will tell them how good i am. Hell i have not killed heroic G'hunn yet as a warlock and i cna get into any group i want but most of the groups suck and many of them i was number 1 dps as a DEMO warlock and die to stupidity. If my guild did not fall into a relaxed state till the next raid i probably would have the kill but the 1 night they got it was the night i couldn't make it and thats when half the guild basically went afk till 8.1. WHihc is like msot guilds including mythic ones, as G'huun is not worth the trouble for his loot or the hassle to lead.

and the best part is i do all of this with ZERO ADD-ons unless you count 3D portraits as *enhancing my game play* or faking out my guild leader*long story on this one* who wanted to force us to use DBM by installing and disabling all of it's features making it a glorified pull timer that i don't even need or use when i can see people flask and leader still called pulls in discord......

You're a demo warlock. You're in the same boat as I am. I play rogue, I love Outlaw but I end up playing Assassination as it offers a smoother experience for the group and gets me invited everywhere. You probably love Demo but if you want to get invited more frequently you should play Affliction. I don't take Demo warlocks to my groups, and I only play Outlaw if we bring another rogue or have a frost mage.

You're silly if you think M+ is about who has most DPS. Interrupts play a large part (of which you have none). If given the choice between a easy and a hard ride almost all players would pick the easy ride. You're probably a decent player, but if you were competing in a race you'd start a few laps behind many others. Well-rehearsed groups can play around you, but pugs usually don't communicate that well so already at a disadvantage with a demo lock.

Just cold hard reality I'm afraid.

[Cannibalus]

so you did a +10 of [insert dungeon name]? congrats.

we are running [insert dungeon name different than above] and are looking for people who know boss/trash mechanics (and dear lord, weekly affix interactions) and you have no history of experience.

are you saying that finding an experienced applicant over someone unskilled in the "field" is silly and unfair?


go outside and find a non entry job with 0 skills. come back and lets talk. it is very much like the same thing. you are a liability, but you want it to be equal grounds because you do not want to become experienced.


not all m+ are the same. mobs in different dungeons have 1-shot mechanics, avoidable mechanics, dispellable mechanics. same with bosses. do you know affix interactions with these mobs/bosses? or in general? probably not.


iLvL is easily inflated thanks to LFR, M0, and world quests warforging/titanforging. its a false number of experience. people want a way to screen success and experience. Raider.io provides that. the addon alone just has a score, real players go beyond a score and highest completed for the week, we look at how many runs you have done.... your actual "experience" not something you can pay a group for 1 runthru and think you passed the score test.

until people realize its a gauging tool when no other exists..... they will continue to complain


I wanted to add an edit here:
when people run 10+ to time, sometimes its for score, sometimes its for a higher different key. most of the time its for gear. your mistake that caused the timer to run out just cost X chance at X extra loot. so that 30-60min of time you wasted because you wanted your weekly run done just cost someone potential loot too. its not always about you and your shortcomings.

This exactly. I see M+ having a progression system close to raiding, only you can actually get to +10 in a few days. During the winter holidays i managed to get my score from 300 something to 900 on raider IO. And imagine that there were dungeons that i've never done before, not even on normal/heroic mode. So i started with +7, then did everything on +9 then started pushing a few +10, +11 keys. At times i had to queue into groups for like 20+ mins that wouldn't take me because i had low score. Slowly but surely over the course or let's say 3 days my score was up and now i can get into any +10/+11 without any problems. I bet that if i spend 3x that time or more i could start working my way up to +12 - +15. The way i see it it's +10 is the equivalent of Heroic and +15 is the equivalent of Mythic dungeon-wise.

Yeah, you just gotta invest time into getting that score up! Wait, what? Investing time and effort in an Mmo? What a crazy idea!!

[seasy]

It's really simple, just push your own keys.
You don't have to wait to get accepted and you can cherrypick classes and check raider.io if you are into that sort of thing.
People forget its a social game and if you push your own keys you might even make some friends to push more keys later on.

[Kasharan]

I thought early on that because I worked full time and didn't have the free time that was my excuse for not getting my score up so I couldn't get into a +10 without long-extended waits in hopes someone would take me. I was pretty big on M+ in legion (think the highest I had done was a +23 or 24), as that was (and still is) my favorite thing to do in this game. I realized that if I was going to continue to pug (especially since my guild at the time was not capable of pushing 10 keys) that I would need to improve my score.

So a few things happened:

- I found low keys that I hadn't timed before and started working my way up the ladder. Week by week always looking to do the next step up, often using my own key in order to form groups that fit my own requirements. Now I'm at 1.5k+ IO and have done a +15 every week for the last month. As a result I have higher keys that I can freely distribute through my guild with sort of a trickle down system. Which helped our raiders and overall was a benefit to our progress.
- I know each dungeon quite well, skips, mechanics, mob priority, when to use/hold my CD's, etc. So I'm no longer a liability to the groups I join, and my score reflects that for the level of content I'm doing which is mainly +14-15's.

I knew what I was capable of, other players did not, so I had to pay my dues in order to get into the level of content I wanted to pursue. There is so much entitlement in the community that they think they can just get handed whatever they want without putting in the work to get it. I personally like the Raider.IO system, it gives me a sense of individual progression/goals in the game while allowing me to see what experience random players I pug have so I don't get Joe Blow with the 385 ilvl strictly through titanforge WQs that has only done the dungeon on a +5 and does abysmal dps because they don't know their class. Vetting will always exist in this game, whether its gearscore, raider.io, warcraft logs, etc. You can't escape it, the time you spend complaining about it could be used productively to help you reach your goal of being able to pug a +10 each week without any issues.

Fotm classes aren't a problem when you've put in the work to reflect your experience, I've played with plenty of shadow priests, warlocks, warriors, ret paladins, hunters, etc. that have all done exceptionally well in higher keys, and I would take a 1k+ IO non-meta class over a 200 IO DH to a +10 100% every time because it reflects their experience and the work they put in to learn the dungeons. Which getting 1k IO is relatively easy at this point in the expansion, that's timing majority of the dungeons with a +10 and maybe a few +9's. But you have to put in the work to get there.

Really the only negative that comes from it are people who use the tool in the wrong way, asking for 1k+ IO for a +5 or something is silly, but why would you apply to that group to begin with? I don't apply to keys that ask for significantly higher IO than I currently have because I know there is a high chance I'll be declined and its a waste of time. If you're applying to a +10 as a dps with low IO and the other 20+ dps that apply have more experience in that dungeon, then you're going to have a lower chance of getting a pug to take you. Majority of my guild is below 1k IO, several don't even use the IO addon. But they also have a guild with people who do the keys, so its not a thing they have to put a lot of thought into. If your guild is dead or you pug everything then you're going to have to put in the work to reflect your experience, that's just reality. The pug community owes you nothing, players worked hard to push their own keys, level their IO and paid their dues. That doesn't make them elitist when they decline others that try to come in and ride on the coat tails of their success.