Bring the player not the class

[Kralljin]

Those type of things are being done from week 1, just a bit more subtle. Using Aggramar as an example, i was playin fury then and our main cd had a around ~30sec cd on it, he goes into his transition phase after around a minute, in that time i can just about use it 2 times but then if i do that i wont have it for the adds, so obviously the correct thing is to hold it for 10sec and wait for the adds to spawn so i can burst them right? But if i do that then i lose dps by holding on to my cd, which a scumbag wouldn't care about and just use his cd on cd, and thats padding since there is no need to waste cds on the boss which is not doing anything and going to transition at that point anyway. You can do that from week 1 and not be noticed.

First off, whether you get noticed or not during progression isn't metters paddling, it's a massive scumbag move towards your raid if it is a dps loss on relevant targets.

Second, if too many do that, that kills your raid, as those blow up sooner or later, so having too many people doing that will literally wipe you.
Even if you are on farm, as killing those adds literally does nothing.

There were always op classes but the difference is that back then even if you weren't playing a fotm class you could still do well if you tried hard enough, unlike now where an ele shaman will basically never beat a surv hunter or an sin rogue on a single target enounter no matter how good he is and how mediocre the hunt/rogue are.

Been that way since forever.
And i main Ele since BC, so i (sadly) have firsthand experience on that, you can't beat halfway competent people most of the time as Ele.

[M1r4g3]

Cool, want to link me to some established polls where your version of "most people" backs up your point? Don't worry I can wait.

If you want to get hotheaded that certain fights cock block you from unleashing your entire DPS when you want to, again that's up to you. It's certainly more refreshing from my point of view to not care as much if I have to cheese a fight to parse as high as the other cheesers. Makes the game far more enjoyable and gets me far less riled up then it does for you.

It sure riles you up when someone doesn't share your views

Pretty sad to see someone be so ignorant as to assume no one likes to play their class lmao. This forum...

First off, whether you get noticed or not during progression isn't metters paddling, it's a massive scumbag move towards your raid if it is a dps loss on relevant targets.

Second, if too many do that, that kills your raid, as those blow up sooner or later, so having too many people doing that will literally wipe you.
Even if you are on farm, as killing those adds literally does nothing.



Been that way since forever.
And i main Ele since BC, so i (sadly) have firsthand experience on that, you can't beat halfway competent people most of the time as Ele.

I agree its a scumbag move, but if you want to rank you kinda have to do that on some fights at the expense of everyone else sadly. I blame Blizzard more than the players doing those things tho since they are the ones designing that crap, and yea i used a bit of an extreme example there(poor ele shamans) but in general the difference between someone good and medicore was way higher before as opposed to now.

[Great Destiny Man]

It sure riles you up when someone doesn't share your views

Pretty sad to see someone be so ignorant as to assume no one likes to play their class lmao. This forum...

Eh? I've told you countless times what you choose to prize is up to you so not sure in what universe you think I'm riled up.

You're the one complaining here that not being able to press the buttons you wants when you want impacts your fun. Meanwhile I'm enjoying the raids regardless of whether or not I have to cheese in order to log high. Poor, poor me :<

[M1r4g3]

Eh? I've told you countless times what you choose to prize is up to you so not sure in what universe you think I'm riled up.

You're the one complaining here that not being able to press the buttons you wants when you want impacts your fun. Meanwhile I'm enjoying the raids regardless of whether or not I have to cheese in order to log high. Poor, poor me :<

Yes and you keep telling me i'm wrong somehow for not having fun and that everyone else should be like you and not care about how they perform otherwise they shouldn't be raiding mythic.

[God Save The King]

snip

No idea why you wrote me a book... Lol. And the data does prove my point, thank you. You see a notable decrease in the number of DHs in bolstering weeks compared to all other weeks. I didn't say they were horrible or anything, still one of the best M+ classes, but they are worse and their numbers suffer during bolstering. I was saying that their numbers lag behind a bit compared to normal weeks. And you see stronger single target (with still good AoE) move up a few nothces,

[Great Destiny Man]

Yes and you keep telling me i'm wrong somehow for not having fun and that everyone else should be like you and not care about how they perform otherwise they shouldn't be raiding mythic.

Never once said you were wrong for wanting to have fun, I only suggested taking a different approach in order to not have these feelings of the game being"unfun". No skin off my back if you don't want to. The only time I said you were wrong is when you implied players HAVE to pad and cheese because no-one is forced to do so.

I "perform" just fine in raids by the way because both myself and my guild know that I play my class to the best of my abilities while not actively engaging in cheese tactics that could potentially wipe a raid. There's far more metrics to gauging how good a player is beyond simple "how much dps did they do?".

[M1r4g3]

Never once said you were wrong for wanting to have fun, I only suggested taking a different approach in order to not have these feelings of the game being"unfun". No skin off my back if you don't want to. The only time I said you were wrong is when you implied players HAVE to pad and cheese because no-one is forced to do so.

I "perform" just fine in raids by the way because both myself and my guild know that I play my class to the best of my abilities while not actively engaging in cheese tactics that could potentially wipe a raid. There's far more metrics to gauging how good a player is beyond simple "how much dps did they do?".

And in the first reply i said i have been taking that approach for years now(except in nh cause it was possible to get nice logs without padding, and the higher skill ceiling of the class allowed that), and that its less fun than the alternative. Well yes you are forced to cheese/pad if you want high ranks but if you don't then just don't? Not exactly sure how i'm wrong here... I just want that cheese/pad part toned down.

Did not imply you were bad, just that you probably don't tryhard more than its needed to kill the boss.

[Great Destiny Man]

And in the first reply i said i have been taking that approach for years now(except in nh cause it was possible to get nice logs without padding, and the higher skill ceiling of the class allowed that), and that its less fun than the alternative. Well yes you are forced to cheese/pad if you want high ranks but if you don't then just don't? Not exactly sure how i'm wrong here... I just want that cheese/pad part toned down.

Did not imply you were bad, just that you probably don't tryhard more than its needed to kill the boss.

Well most of the time Warcraft logs filter out damage for absolutely pointless padding (big example being G'huun) so in those situations it's counter productive. I'm sure you know of that anyway but just saying in those situations that padding can actually make things worse across the board.

Also to give a more personal example, when I was researching into Mythrax Mythic for our 1st kill I noticed the majority of higher ranking Balance druids were basically never moving for living weapon, just staying in the same spot in order to not lose DPS (but fucks up melee if it doesn't spawn at boss). Had no intention of doing it that way, collapsed on every living weapon and focused the weapon to 50%. Still scored a 95 rank which I was very happy with.

But I do get the point that if you are motivated for high logs you're more likely to engage in those cheesy/pad tactics. I don't have any problems against those kind of people, as long as they don't force wipes on the rest of our raid in the process as it's just a waste of everyone's time if that's the case.

Also cheers for the clarification, that's a fair description to be honest. High logs are always nice and adds a bit of a bonus to the run, but as long as I did everything I'm supposed to I'm just not fussed if things weren't completely aligned for a good parse.

[Marrilaife]

And the data does prove my point, thank you. You see a notable decrease in the number of DHs in bolstering weeks compared to all other weeks. I didn't say they were horrible or anything, still one of the best M+ classes, but they are worse and their numbers suffer during bolstering. I was saying that their numbers lag behind a bit compared to normal weeks. And you see stronger single target (with still good AoE) move up a few nothces,

Yeah, DHs "go down a few notches" and still say head and shoulders above these classes that "went up a few notches". It's literally droplets in the ocean. The "pick different classes on different affixes" really doesn't apply if still the same classes are picked by the majority.

[La]

Bring the player, no the class. Fuck you if you have a great raid comp and do Fetid/Mythrax, oh and here's another gimmick stack rogue fight, and two priests, because our last 4 bosses are absolute horseshit.

They've said before that mythic will sometimes be designed for you to always have x class, but I didn't realize that meant more than one, and sometimes 5. When you outgear stuff, it doesn't matter as much, but it can still hinder your progress.

[Moggie]

After all these years, at some point folks should retire that phrase like Blizz did many many years ago imo >.<

[MHMabrito]

That mantra has been dead for a while.

I had to stop playing Feral years ago, just to continue raiding in US top 50 guilds.

[MoanaLisa]

The design problem with 'Bring the player and not the class' was that over time it demanded that classes be designed so that they were much the same functionally. Homogenization is a real problem in a game where classes and specs are supposed to bring variety. So they've abandoned that now which creates additional problems for balancing. My personal preference is to have the variety. High-end players are not numerous enough to make fine balance much of an issue although Blizzard has had some real difficulties in getting some classes even close. At lower difficulty levels, where the bulk of the players are, players will eventually be geared well enough that floor/ceiling performance varations won't matter as much.

[docterfreeze]

Bring the player not the class should mean bring your highest skilled players, but what it ends up being due to blizzard balance is "look at this chart and only bring the classes at the top." Bring the class not the player, which is what they're doing now, should mean you bring each class to your raid to have all types of utility. Thanks to blizzard balance, some classes are left out because they forgot to give them utility. They're only invited if they have exceptional damage in that current tier. Hunters, rets, dps druids, and dps shaman are all left without any unique or impactful utility. Really easy fix, but blizzard refuses.

Hunters - aspect of the fox, crit or haste raid buff
Rets - mastery raid buff
dps shaman - stormlash/skyfury totem, windfury totem
dps druids - vers raid buff

[Xastin]

except for shamans they are 100% useless

[Alphatorg]

In that case, Spirit Link should be class-wide. It's only utility Shaman is brought into raids for.

Purge, Bloodlust, Windrush totem?

[Kralljin]

Purge, Bloodlust, Windrush totem?

What is Dispel magic / Spellsteal.
What is Timewarp / Primal Rage.

Windrush Totem has not really been useful in Uldir, as most classes (except Shaman) have "burst" mobility anyway.

[Alphatorg]

Bring the player not the class should mean bring your highest skilled players, but what it ends up being due to blizzard balance is "look at this chart and only bring the classes at the top." Bring the class not the player, which is what they're doing now, should mean you bring each class to your raid to have all types of utility. Thanks to blizzard balance, some classes are left out because they forgot to give them utility. They're only invited if they have exceptional damage in that current tier. Hunters, rets, dps druids, and dps shaman are all left without any unique or impactful utility. Really easy fix, but blizzard refuses.

Hunters - aspect of the fox, crit or haste raid buff
Rets - mastery raid buff
dps shaman - stormlash/skyfury totem, windfury totem
dps druids - vers raid buff

Hunters are one of the most played classes, even among top guilds.
Rets have their blessings - while they aren't mandatory the class is good enough to earn itself raid spot unless you're raiding in a top guild or are worse than your competition.
Druids (moonkin) have innervate and most guilds have at least one of them as a mandatory dps slot?
You have no idea what you're talking about?

- - - Updated - - -

What is Dispel magic / Spellsteal.
What is Timewarp / Primal Rage.

Windrush Totem has not really been useful in Uldir, as most classes (except Shaman) have "burst" mobility anyway.

So what? You expect every spec to have a unique and mandatory utility?

[AceofH]

That mantra has been dead for a while.

That mantra was dead from the start. Now outside of situational needs on a per boss need you stack whatever is going to bring the most dps to the group. Which for thr second straight expansion appears like it is going to be affliction locks and balance druids. At least in burning crusade you brought pretty much every class to a raid because everyone brought diverse and stacking buffs (which was fun). At least up until mages got sunwelled.

A lot of people are already crying about hybrid dps specs in vanilla and their damage output, and I'm just like, at least back then every class got to raid in every raid. In live we've seen so many world first boss kills with a class or classes not making the cut its absurd.

[Kralljin]

So what? You expect every spec to have a unique and mandatory utility?

That's kinda what Blizzard been hinting at.
Or how do you explain Warlocks on G'huun?

Shaman has Tremor, which is rather unique, problem is that in raiding it's like black paper, there is no use for it.

Why are people still parroting this in 2018?

That motto was for what, cataclysm?

The result of that motto was the buff system from Wotlk to MoP, there's a set pool of buffs and every class brought some buffs, hence the need to stack Shaman like in BC was no longer neccessary.